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Why would an atheist would support the Christ Redeemer statue?
- Thread starter sovietchild
- Start date
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
Now that would be a miracle!
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
I would have thought by now that you would have learned to view with jaundiced eye any post that ends with.... "Right? Please. Regards."
A statue is not a practice.
It probably reminds many Catholics and other Christians of their beliefs. Sometimes. Not as often you might assume.
I don't think I ever met a person who lived in Rio and actually wanted to have it removed. It is not like it flies on its own and threatens people with its sacred fire or anything.
Incidentally, there are many Umbandists and Kardecists in Rio as well, and quite a few Protestants of various denominations. Often they don't even know for certain how many of those beliefs they hold.
The problems and dangers of Rio are all too real, many and varied. The Christ Redeemer does not make that long list far as I know.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
I guess that means I can cross it off my must see list.
I keep turning the other cheek. It's starting to hurt.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I am a so-called "strong" atheist and I have no problem, whatsoever, with statues of this kind. None at all. You have to understand that I am VERY secure in my understanding and am not troubled by the idea that there are still those who look upon the Joyous Nazarene as being god incarnate. Also it is an impressive work of art, depicting a wonderful human being.
There are some nice people among them, for sure.I like Umbandists
Are you aware of how fluid those labels can be in Rio? Quite a few people mix and match nominally incompatible doctrines, not always in a very stable way.
For the most part that is a non-issue. Umbandists, particularly, rarely if ever disregard people due to their beliefs or lack of same.
I guess minorities tend to remember the importance of respect.
I was kind of aware of that, yeah. Hopefully Skanda Vale will set up a Brazilian monastery someday. Then I can visit
Looking forward to it. We could use more Hindus.
They'll probably be worshipping Jesus, Mary and the Orixas, I hope that's OK.
Fine by me and, I assume, by the Umbanda and Candomblé people.
Not sure how some Christians might react, but I must assume there will be nothing of any real consequence.
No Christians have kicked up a fuss over it in the UK yet. Or in Switzerland.
Many Christians come and worship, even. Skanda Vale doesn't really demand you identify as X, Y or Z, and they're very skeptical of organised religion.
I fear the Brazilian Christians are simply not up to that level. They sometimes make a point of picking up a fight with Umbandists.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
...????
Because by supporting the freedom of religion for those who HAVE a religion helps ensure that you will remain free not to have one.
sovietchild
Well-Known Member
If you have better ways of fixing Brazil, then please, lay them on the table.
Well, that's a shame. Although I suppose there are Christians and Christians. Many Brazilian Christians will also involve themselves in Umbandist practices etc, presumably!
How do the fights go?
Wanna hear something nice? In the ongoing gradual schism of the Anglican Communion, the Brazilian component of that church is coming down on the pro-LGBT side!
Attempts to shame Umbandists out of their beliefs and practice are hardly going to fix Brazil.
More of a serious effort at secularism, however, just might be of true help.
Well, that's a shame. Although I suppose there are Christians and Christians. Many Brazilian Christians will also involve themselves in Umbandist practices etc, presumably!
How do the fights go?
That is a complex thing to explain.
You see, many Brazilians do indeed describe themselves as Christians despite picking up a bit of Umbandist practice, most notably that of offering flowers to Yemanjá at the turn of the year.
Allow me to illustrate with my personal experience. Back in the 1970s I lived in Rio with my relatives. IIRC they were mostly deeply lapsed Catholics with strong Kardecist influence, with the odd LDS thrown in for measure. I don't think any of them was nominally Umbandist or Candombleian, although I can't be sure; those relatives of mine did not like to talk very openly or very often about religion, except for the period of time when a few of them would not shut up about Kardecism despite my begging. (That is a common attitude among Brazilians, by the way. In the urban centers at least it is considered slightly rude to make a point of stating one's religious beliefs without being clearly invited to.)
Even so, at least once at the turn of the year they decided to dress in white and bring me to the beach with them at the turn of the year. They even handed me a few white palm flowers for me to put in the sea water myself.
I don't even know whether any of them believed in the existence of Yemanjá. I suspect most of them do not know either.
You probably know already that in Brazil Yemanja has been melded with Mary mother of Jesus. There is a degree of controvery on how proper it is to consider them one and the same. Some people are bothered by that syncretism, but that rarely if ever leads to anything more than brief harsh words.
These links give a fair idea of how it is. Would you agree that it resembles a Hindu Puja?
Rio celebrates the goddess Yemanja
Offerings to the Sea Goddess Yemanja
Anyway, about the fights... perhaps the best way to explain it would be to present a few typical (or is it stereotypical?) religious profiles, somewhat slanted towards the "Carioca" community.
Most significant in purely demographic terms are the Catholics. If you have no other indication and have to guess, assume that a random Carioca is a Catholic who do not always think too much of religious matters. It is not a given, but quite possible, that he will have a smattering of Kardecist and/or Umbandist beliefs thrown in for flavor. He will usually try not to question other people's beliefs without a clear reason to. He may easily even avoid mentioning or asking whether other people even have religious beliefs in the first place, or he may feel that what truly matters is that people believe in God.
Then there are the Protestants, who come in various "flavors" but all tend to be at least a bit more overt about their belief in Christ. Some of them are discreet, others dress in stereotypical"believer" garb (long skirts or short sleeved social shirts with neckties, mostly). A vocal minority among them are "noisy" and sometimes end up passionate when faced with evidence of non-Christian beliefs (or lack of same). Incidents of attempts to shame or even threaten Umbandist temples have happened, albeit (and fortunately) few and far between.
Kardecists are common countrywide, and many of them see themselves as the natural and logical extension of Christianity, or even of Catholicism specifically. A somewhat rare dissidence follows Roustang (sp?), who is considered by many to be the reincarnation of Muhammad.
Umbandists and Candomble believers are fairly common, but they tend to blend in very discreetly in most situations. It is very rare for them to attempt to make converts without being invited to speak their minds on their beliefs. They usually are very respectful of the diversity of beliefs.
LDS are not uncommon in Brazil, and tend to be easily recognizable at a distance (they often walk in pairs, with white shirts, and name badges of a rigorously defined style). They are almost without exception also very nice people once one learns to negotiate their proselitism, which is hardly ever rude in the first place.
A minority that has become very visible are the Ayahuasca worshippers, not all of which consider themselves worshippers or believers as much as users.
Brazil also has a perhaps surprisingly high number of adepts of "Osho" Rajneesh's doctrine, which is a leading form of the current wave of "new age" beliefs. Also a heartwarming variety of Shinto derivatives, most notably Seicho No Ie. And a variety of Hindu and Buddhist schools and study groups. There is even a Sikh Temple somewhere in São Paulo, which I hope to someday visit. For a while now I have wanted to participate in Langar, helping with the cooking if at all possible.
More merits to them.
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