I think you've lost me on this one. All I'm saying is that the worship that is offered ought to bring joy to the heart.
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Why Would an Omnipotent God Want Worshipers?
- Thread starter Fool
- Start date
I think you've lost me on this one. All I'm saying is that the worship that is offered ought to bring joy to the heart.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I was thinking when you said that worship is for our benefit and not god's. If a person does not know god either by not having heard of him or even if he has, never experienced him and the religion he follows brings joy to his heart, what benefit can god of abraham give him that he does not already have?
What benefits can god give someone who already has joy in his heart? How do these benefits differ as a whole (since experiences are personal rather than universal) that he would have that his religion does not give him?
How is he at a disadvantage not worshiping the god of abraham?
(Same question just reworded so I can say it right)
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There would be no advantage to the worship of someone or something that one does not believe in. There are many experiences that bring joy. All I'm saying is that the worship offered to God in communion with Christ is a celebration of who we are.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
When you say "our" benefit, you mean Christians?
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Do you mean North Korea?
Of course they are. Everyone, including Christians go through periods of misery and say "why me God." In Christians this usually happens when they have some sin in their life they can't control and they tend to think because of it God does not love them any more. It can also be caused by the loss of a loved one.
This is why it is necessary for our faith to accept every word in the Bible as true, even if we don't understand it.
The son of a friend of mine committed suicide when he was 17. How was the a good thing for his parents? I have no idea, but if he went to heaven as I and his parent believe, one day they will see that it was. It would only be a tragedy if there is no God and no heaven and no being reunited one day.
Evil was not a created thing. It came into being because of the fall of Adam and Eve. God is around evil 24/7, but it does not affect Him. All are not eternally punished. God has provided a simple way of escape.
I accept God made all the law of nature, but without the fall, there would have been no adverse conditions on the earth He declared not good, but very good.
The main symbolism for darkness is not evil, it is ignorance.
If man has freedom of choice, don't blame what he dose on God, blame i t on man.
God did not put His children in a dangerous environment. He put them in a very good environment. They chose to climb in with the snake and got bit.
Being told is enough for anyone with understanding and there is no evidence they did not understand. In fact Gen 3:2-3 indicates Eve did understand.
Making us robots does not allow us to show love to man or to God. Without love man an what he does is nothing---I Cor 13:1-3
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
You don't get what I'm saying. Not miserable as in crisis in faith. Miserable as if they know that god does not exist, do not experience god, and have no reason to believe in god but feel pressured (many do) to go against their sense of reality to conform to other people's sense of reality.
For example, I live among a lot of christians as friends, co-workers, immediate neighbors, environment, and society as a whole. I'm lucky to find someone who is not religious or has another religion besides Christianity and Islam. Many people in my situation may be so wrapped up in christianity that they conform to something and someone they know does not exist. Peer and environmental pressure such as even with your post of saying "of course you feel miserable. That's normal" is saying, "you are christian if you like it or not. Be miserable."
It's a form of indoctrination and coercion not general spiritual crisis.
This is the misery they feel not a spiritual crisis which is normal when growing in one's faith. If one feels forced or pressured into a faith they cannot accept (not out of choice) and see as reality, that is wrong.
Do you understand the difference between christians going through spiritual crisis and another "christian" who is miserable because he knows god does not exist but is conformed to believe he does?
We are talking about one's view of reality and sense of self when pressured to conform to something they know is not true; it is not someone's spiritual crisis as they are growing in their religion. These are two different things.
NO, through whatever belief system one is a member. I spent many years on the nursing staff at an orthodox Jewish health care facility, some of whom were Holocaust survivors. Their worship was truly a celebration. One gets out of worship what one puts in, if attended out of nothing but an obligation I wouldn't think there to be benefit.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
For the sake of discussion, I am pretending god exist. If you asked me personally, every christian's answers are varied but very confusing and worth my asking about it in a curious way. RF makes it sound like we have different intents but ask us rather than assume.
Why blame the children (and Adam and Eve were children at mind) because their parent put them in a dangerous environment, knowing they will be harmed, and watch them be harmed, then disown both of them because of their actions?
Does that even make sense if you're a parent even on an earthly level?
There wouldn't be a need to escape if god addressed and punished the cause right there on the spot rather than punish the victim for someone else's issues with god.
What's wrong with being all good? Do you really want evil to exist to be with god? Adam and Eve didn't think that way. They had all good and still had freedom of choice. How was their freedom of choice good (since you don't need sin to have freedom of choice) or did they have a freedom of choice or was it, as some say, a set-up?
That makes sense. Christianity is an eastern faith after all.
Nope. Man is a child. God is a parent. That doesn't mean god is bad in and of himself. But what parent would set up such a situation where people have the choice to kill themselves eternally? That's silly.
It could be a god, parent, teacher, whoever. The point is an authority set up a means for their subject to choose to do something against what the authority want them to do. It's like putting a gun in the middle of the room and expect the child not to use the gun all because he was told not to use it. Then you blame the child of using the gun as if the parent is excluded only because he is a parent and no other reason.
He did put them in a dangerous environment. If not, they would not have been tempted. If satan came in to tempt them, god should have addressed that cause right then and there not later by killing people by floods and fire. He should have addressed the issue from the get-go. Also, he put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Remember, god didn't want adam and eve to know good and evil like he did. So why put them in a garden then? That would mean god said one thing "We don't want them to know what we know" but let another thing happen "we see them touch the tree" then punish them for what they were told.
You're punishing the victim not the criminal. On earth, it's the criminal that is punished.
Nope. Adam and Even had child like understanding. They didn't know anything because they haven't yet experienced it. As such, when Adam was lonely, god felt this, he sent a woman to be his company. An adult in god's presence wouldn't need someone else only god. They were innocent.
When you give a verbal command to a child, they will not understand the consequences of those actions regardless if they are told. Why? Because they would have to break that command in order to know the consequences and reasons for the command. God gave them nor let them have any experience of evil before the command so they had nothing to base their disobedience on.
If anything, I bet they were confused when they were kicked out of the garden. I know I would be if I had a childlike mind and my parent told me not to touch the fire, I touch it anyway, and my parent kicked me out the house. No explanation. No addressing the person who told me to touch the fire. Just me as the victim.
That' terrible.
How are you robots in god's presence?
That sounds like ego talking. "I want to have my freedom of choice even though I want god to make the choices for me."
If you really love god, you would do what he says and you would not feel like a robot because remember, god is love. As love, how can you feel worse than you do now as a sinner in need of god's grace rather than as a child dependant on god's grace?
What's wrong for being a "robot" (though I'd say child) of god?
Evil does not need to exist for everyone to be happy and have freedom of choice. God "let evil" I will say then, happen or develop. It was god who gave the freedom of choice.
Why blame the children (and Adam and Eve were children at mind) because their parent put them in a dangerous environment, knowing they will be harmed, and watch them be harmed, then disown both of them because of their actions?
Does that even make sense if you're a parent even on an earthly level?
There wouldn't be a need to escape if god addressed and punished the cause right there on the spot rather than punish the victim for someone else's issues with god.
What's wrong with being all good? Do you really want evil to exist to be with god? Adam and Eve didn't think that way. They had all good and still had freedom of choice. How was their freedom of choice good (since you don't need sin to have freedom of choice) or did they have a freedom of choice or was it, as some say, a set-up?
That makes sense. Christianity is an eastern faith after all.
Nope. Man is a child. God is a parent. That doesn't mean god is bad in and of himself. But what parent would set up such a situation where people have the choice to kill themselves eternally? That's silly.
It could be a god, parent, teacher, whoever. The point is an authority set up a means for their subject to choose to do something against what the authority want them to do. It's like putting a gun in the middle of the room and expect the child not to use the gun all because he was told not to use it. Then you blame the child of using the gun as if the parent is excluded only because he is a parent and no other reason.
He did put them in a dangerous environment. If not, they would not have been tempted. If satan came in to tempt them, god should have addressed that cause right then and there not later by killing people by floods and fire. He should have addressed the issue from the get-go. Also, he put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Remember, god didn't want adam and eve to know good and evil like he did. So why put them in a garden then? That would mean god said one thing "We don't want them to know what we know" but let another thing happen "we see them touch the tree" then punish them for what they were told.
You're punishing the victim not the criminal. On earth, it's the criminal that is punished.
Nope. Adam and Even had child like understanding. They didn't know anything because they haven't yet experienced it. As such, when Adam was lonely, god felt this, he sent a woman to be his company. An adult in god's presence wouldn't need someone else only god. They were innocent.
When you give a verbal command to a child, they will not understand the consequences of those actions regardless if they are told. Why? Because they would have to break that command in order to know the consequences and reasons for the command. God gave them nor let them have any experience of evil before the command so they had nothing to base their disobedience on.
If anything, I bet they were confused when they were kicked out of the garden. I know I would be if I had a childlike mind and my parent told me not to touch the fire, I touch it anyway, and my parent kicked me out the house. No explanation. No addressing the person who told me to touch the fire. Just me as the victim.
That' terrible.
How are you robots in god's presence?
That sounds like ego talking. "I want to have my freedom of choice even though I want god to make the choices for me."
If you really love god, you would do what he says and you would not feel like a robot because remember, god is love. As love, how can you feel worse than you do now as a sinner in need of god's grace rather than as a child dependant on god's grace?
What's wrong for being a "robot" (though I'd say child) of god?
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I am sure that does happen, but IMO, most nonChristians feel no pressure to confirm to any religious standards. The pressure comes from not conforming to the teachings of a particular denomination, and they make you think you are not really a Christians. That is common in legalistic denominations.
I have no idea where you got the idea that is how I think, but let me assure you, it is wrong.
The people are not required to stay in a church they are not comfortable with. They need to show some spiritual back bone and find another church.
Yes it is but the main wrong is staying in a situation that makes you uncomfortable spiritully.
Not really. If a person is a Christian, they know God does exist.
I understand that, but I don't understand a person staying in that kind of situation.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Thank you for being honest. I didn't want to put myself in it, but I am a living example of someone who knows god does not exist but because of the nature of my environment it is very easy to conform to practice a very beautiful and worthwhile religion and denomination I have no foundation for if trying to see it as reality. It doesn't click. Sometimes I just look outside and crumple my nose and think "how in the world did they get god [of the bible] from looking at this tree."
Since I'm one out of probably a thousand, I don't see it's not possible or they don't exist. Just many people just don't care. I met one gentleman from China who never heard of christianity and said he never believed nor heard of god. If god is a fact and universal, he would have probably heard of it and even know it exist in order to decide not believe it.
Not wrong. I'm a living example. Just maybe you haven't come across someone who fits that description and experience. I mean, when I came across a Buddhist here, I was shocked. Doesn't mean it's wrong there weren't any.
It's not about the Church but the foundation of the Church. If someone is miserable because they know god, of course they are going to turn away from him. Not because of a church or spiritual crisis. That feeling or experience of god is completely unsettling. I honestly don't understand how believers don't understand that someone can be miserable with god.
I won't generalize, so I do feel some people fit this description even though I haven't met anyone else other than the man I mentioned.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
No---- they worship their Dear Leader, whom they believe is god.
I was thinking of Switzerland or Sweden. Or even England--- each of these is more secular than not.
In the first two, crime is lower than religious countries, and individual happiness is much-much higher.
But wait-- it's worse: If you look at Pure Religious Theocracies? Crime is many-many times higher, per person. Individual happiness is in the dumpster. They are also dirt poor for the most part.
Conclusion: Religion makes people unhappy and poor.
that makes sense given that life is about to Service to All as ONE, the golden rule.
Love is immediate and nurturing. You don't need a religion. Just an action of a good tree bearing good fruit. Peter do you love me? Feed my sheep.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
I agree that love is nurturing. Which is why none of the Abrahamic gods have it, if the literature has anything to say about them.
You can sum up that literature in six words:
"Worship ME! Worship ME! Worship ME!"
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
All gods are false. Prove that your god is more real than North Korea's Dear Leader.
You cannot -- more to the point? "Dear Leader" is real.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
I question the "statistics". "Suicide" is often a question of whichever authority decides some untimely death is or isn't.
Often, in the most deeply religious countries? It's "suicide" when the correct term would be "state murder of a heretic".
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Why Would an Omnipotent God Want Worshipers?
Why a non-omnipotent god is worshiped ? Please
Regards
Why a non-omnipotent god is worshiped ? Please
Regards