Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

[DandyAndy]

no

haha, I should have known better than to ask that question that way - clearly we have different beliefs.

quite a conundrum to solve
:yes:

I don't think so.

nope. all they knew was indifference, innocence and freedom

And all are good things.

 

[waitasec]

haha, I should have known better than to ask that question that way - clearly we have different beliefs.




I don't think so.



And all are good things.

indifference is neither good or evil...because there is no intent
take for instance the birth of a child who is a sociopath...

 

[DandyAndy]

but you yourself said...

??? I'm confused. We are looking at this from two different vantage points.

it is what it is
you made that judgment for yourself and you are also applying it to others

What judgement do you speak of? What am I applying to others? Unbelief in Christ and the resurrection and all that stuff? That's a personal decision the individual makes.

with this perception of non believers there cannot be an equal playing ground, that is why believers are often appointing themselves as the morally superior to unbelievers when in real life everyone is just as capable as the next guy, except of course when we are talking about sociopaths...but your belief would put sociopaths in the same boat as non believers, right?
there is no way around that...it is what it is, but you don't seem to like it so much and i can understand why.

You are lumping all us believers together and that's very dangerous and not very fair either. I never appointed myself as 'morally superior' to anyone. I don't even know what that means - how can I be morally superior? Did you read my last post?

The amount or degree of sin is not the issue, forgiveness is the only issue that matters. Either you are forgiven or you are not forgiven - you are a sinner regardless.

In God's eyes EVERYONE is in the same boat apart from Christ. That's the point I'm making. God doesn't give everyone a grade - He doesn't say 'you guys are great, you guys are good, you guys are ok, you guys are iffy, you guys are bad, etc.' This whole thing is pass or fail.

It seems like you are trying to catch me in saying something so you can laud it over my head. I don't like what you are doing. We've had some great conversations but I'm starting to detect some sneaky stuff and my spider sense is going off.

You keep wanting me to label all unbelievers as sociopaths and I'm not going to do that. You are looking at this from a different perspective than I am, and you are trying to put people into categories based upon criteria that is different than the criteria I am using.

i still stand by what i originally said:
it doesn't matter if people are good and do good deeds throughout their life without god...their life is meaningless, they are no better than sociopaths

And I will again state that I agree with everything I underlined in your quote. You're really trying to catch me in a corner and misrepresent what I am saying and I don't appreciate it.

what you seem to be saying is that in order to be in the forgiven camp is to reciprocate gods love...

That is partially correct, yes. Acceptance, belief and obedience is how we reciprocate God's love - and then sharing it with others and living it out.

a very human like trait of feeling accepted which really isn't all that impressive, it has a tendency to point towards elitism

???? Sure it has a tendency to lead to elitism, but that's the fault of the person ONLY. I hope that I have never come off as elitist - I don't think myself better than anyone - in fact I try to think of others as better than myself. I don't always do a good job but my belief system does not make me elitist.

Acceptance is only 'elitist' when the invitation is offered to a select group of people, or there are only a set number of spots available. There's enough room in Heaven for EVERYONE and there's enough forgiveness for EVERYONE - and it is freely offered to EVERYONE. I don't see anything elitist about that.

 

[DandyAndy]

indifference is neither good or evil...because there is no intent
take for instance the birth of a child who is a sociopath...

Huh???

:run:

 

[waitasec]

??? I'm confused. We are looking at this from two different vantage points.




What judgement do you speak of? What am I applying to others? Unbelief in Christ and the resurrection and all that stuff? That's a personal decision the individual makes.




You are lumping all us believers together and that's very dangerous and not very fair either. I never appointed myself as 'morally superior' to anyone. I don't even know what that means - how can I be morally superior? Did you read my last post?

The amount or degree of sin is not the issue, forgiveness is the only issue that matters. Either you are forgiven or you are not forgiven - you are a sinner regardless.

In God's eyes EVERYONE is in the same boat apart from Christ. That's the point I'm making. God doesn't give everyone a grade - He doesn't say 'you guys are great, you guys are good, you guys are ok, you guys are iffy, you guys are bad, etc.' This whole thing is pass or fail.

It seems like you are trying to catch me in saying something so you can laud it over my head. I don't like what you are doing. We've had some great conversations but I'm starting to detect some sneaky stuff and my spider sense is going off.

You keep wanting me to label all unbelievers as sociopaths and I'm not going to do that. You are looking at this from a different perspective than I am, and you are trying to put people into categories based upon criteria that is different than the criteria I am using.




And I will again state that I agree with everything I underlined in your quote. You're really trying to catch me in a corner and misrepresent what I am saying and I don't appreciate it.



That is partially correct, yes. Acceptance, belief and obedience is how we reciprocate God's love - and then sharing it with others and living it out.



???? Sure it has a tendency to lead to elitism, but that's the fault of the person ONLY. I hope that I have never come off as elitist - I don't think myself better than anyone - in fact I try to think of others as better than myself. I don't always do a good job but my belief system does not make me elitist.

Acceptance is only 'elitist' when the invitation is offered to a select group of people, or there are only a set number of spots available. There's enough room in Heaven for EVERYONE and there's enough forgiveness for EVERYONE - and it is freely offered to EVERYONE. I don't see anything elitist about that.

lets simplify this
god doesn't discriminate between unbelievers and sociopaths

 

[waitasec]

Huh???

:run:

thats ride you can run but you cannot hide...

 

[waitasec]

Sure it has a tendency to lead to elitism, but that's the fault of the person ONLY.

absolutely.
this is entirely based on a subjective interpretation...



and for what it is worth, i'm only targeting this idea, not the person.

 

[waitasec]

Acceptance is only 'elitist' when the invitation is offered to a select group of people, or there are only a set number of spots available. There's enough room in Heaven for EVERYONE and there's enough forgiveness for EVERYONE - and it is freely offered to EVERYONE. I don't see anything elitist about that.

there are some who would disagree...
another subjective interpretation no less

 

[waitasec]

i guess i don't understand why god has to stoop to such a lowly level...
it seems he needs to fell accepted too...why?

 

[DandyAndy]

lets simplify this
god doesn't discriminate between unbelievers and sociopaths

Both are sinners and I presume both are unbelievers - if so, then yes I agree.

 

[DandyAndy]

absolutely.
this is entirely based on a subjective interpretation...



and for what it is worth, i'm only targeting this idea, not the person.

What's the idea we are talking about again? :help:

An idea being misinterpreted or misrepresented does not make the idea itself wrong, just the person for their misinterpretation or misrepresentation.

 

[waitasec]

What's the idea we are talking about again? :help:

An idea being misinterpreted or misrepresented does not make the idea itself wrong, just the person for their misinterpretation or misrepresentation.

why would god send good and decent unbelievers along with sociopaths to hell?

 

[DandyAndy]

i guess i don't understand why god has to stoop to such a lowly level...
it seems he needs to fell accepted too...why?

What do you mean when you God stoops to such a low level?

The whole accepting of Christ isn't for God's benefit, it is for ours. Rekindling our relationship with God and making things the way they were supposed to be is not for God's benefit, it is for our benefit.

God doesn't need a relationship with His creation - He wants it.

Love expressed by God doesn't need to be reciprocated, but God wants it to be reciprocated, that's the nature of love. I love my wife whether she loves me or not, but I really like it when she loves me back. :yes:

 

[DandyAndy]

why would god send good and decent unbelievers along with sociopaths to hell?

Because both are sinners and therefor neither is holy.

 

[Badran]

Im going to get straight to the point.

I am no Athiest. I believe there IS a higher power but I do not believe he is as wrathful as most Church's make him/her out to be.

What gets me angry about alot of Church's is that unless you follow their particular way of worship you will go to hell. What kind of rubbish is this? I thought Jesus taught people to love thy neighbor not judgeing them on Race or Religion? Or am I wrong here?

Nearly all people who participate in Church are very Judgemental, I have been told numerous times by Christians I will go to Hell if I dont change my ways..

I Don't Smoke
I Don't Gamble
I Do Partake in Alcohol but I Don't get drunk or drink to get drunk
I am a Virgin so no Sex either
I do not commit crimes

I guess they judge me wicked because I don't go to Church?
But why should I go to Church? How does going to Church make me more good?

I think God doe's Exist but I dont believe he will send people to Hell (If that place even exists) simply for " not believing in him " or not following a specific Church's practice.

Heres a Scenario.
(None of this is real it is made up as an example)

Jeff is a 43 year old man with 3 Kids aged 3,9 and 16 and a 39 year old Wife named Brenda.

Jeff is driveing home from work on a rainy night and a Truck who is driveing too fast lose's control and Smashes into Jeff's car. Killing him Instantly.

The Driver of the Truck is Arrested, Trialed and Sent to Prison for Manslaughter.

Jeff was a loveing Husband and Father and a great Friend to many.

Jeff was involved in many Charitys and raised lots of money to help Kids with disabilitys.

Jeff was an Athiest and did not believe in any god.

Uh Oh! Jeff did not believe God existed! Any Church Zealot would condemn him to Hell for this ungodly Sin...

My point is I cannot imagine God saying this.

Jeff. " But im not a Bad Person! ive made mistakes in life like a normal Human being but ive given most of my life to help people! "

God. " To bad you didn't believe in me so now you will burn in Hell for all Eternity "
---
God would not Punish anyone for being a Good Person. Never.
Shame on you for believing he would.
---
And for anyone who is too lazy to read this the Question is pretty much.

Why would God send people to Hell for being Good Careing Decent people?

Its an old thread, but since its resurrected i thought i add my thoughts. I agree with you, god wouldn't punish a good person.

He wouldn't punish a person for merely getting the definition of god wrong, or for sincerely thinking that he doesn't exist. In reality, nobody has the proper definition of god, since from the perspective of the religions you're talking about god is supposed to be above our ability to comprehend. We only supposedly know very little about god to start with.

For me its all revolved around sincerity, or intent. That is the primary factor which determines a good person from a bad person, not whether or not they joined the right group.

 

[waitasec]

What do you mean when you God stoops to such a low level?

The whole accepting of Christ isn't for God's benefit, it is for ours. Rekindling our relationship with God and making things the way they were supposed to be is not for God's benefit, it is for our benefit.

of course it is. why send people to hell for lack of belief in him then...?
gods love needs to be reciprocated, why?
seems like an insecure motive, wouldn't god be above that? i think god would not even concern himself with any of this...life is indifferent which seems to be consistent with that understanding.

Love expressed by God doesn't need to be reciprocated, but God wants it to be reciprocated, that's the nature of love. I love my wife whether she loves me or not, but I really like it when she loves me back. :yes:

no it's not.
i will always love my son even if he hated me, i have no choice in the matter. i know i cannot control how my son feels and i have accepted that.
do you know what i mean?

the love i have for my husband depends on it being reciprocated and that is a fragile love it does not compare with the love i have for my son it never will cease.

 

[waitasec]

Because both are sinners and therefor neither is holy.

do you consider yourself holy because you are a believer?

 

[DandyAndy]

of course it is. why send people to hell for lack of belief in him then...?

Because they are guilty of sin and thus are not holy. The two are intertwined.

gods love needs to be reciprocated, why?

God doesn't need it to be reciprocated - He wants it to be.

I tie love and faith together because it is impossible to please God without faith and if I have faith in the things He did and said and promises, the only true reaction is love. This is why I say we need to reciprocate it - how can I believe all this awesome stuff and then shrug it off like it doesn't matter? It's the whole judge the tree by its fruits and whatnot - if a man is faithful and believes, love will overflow as a result of that faith.

seems like an insecure motive, wouldn't god be above that?

What are you referring to when you say insecure motive?

i think god would not even concern himself with any of this...life is indifferent which seems to be consistent with that understanding.

With any of what? Our personal lives and our personal choices? If we are His creation and are made in His image as the Bible teaches, then of course He would concern Himself with us.

I guess nature appears to act indifferent, but how is life indifferent?

no it's not.
i will always love my son even if he hated me, i have no choice in the matter. i know i cannot control how my son feels and i have accepted that.
do you know what i mean?

To be honest I don't have a son (or daughter) so I can't understand it on your level if you do have a son (or daughter).

But I see what you are saying, yes. I think God loves us even if we are unbelieving sinners that hate Him, which is why Jesus died for ALL people. Jesus didn't just die for the people God knew would believe in Him - now His forgiveness is only applied to those that believe it, but it is made available to all people.

Unfortunately there is a time when justice has to enter the picture.

But only God is holy and perfect. We are not. If I had a son and he killed my wife (his mother) I would have a hard time loving him, but I probably still would. But in that situation I am not judge, I am not holy - I am only a broken, sinful father. God is both Holy Father and perfect judge; God has to carry out justice, which means condemning His own creation to Hell because of the choices that child made.

An earthly father is not in such a position.

the love i have for my husband depends on it being reciprocated and that is a fragile love it does not compare with the love i have for my son it never will cease.

The two are different, because the relationship is different, I will admit that. But between humans the bonds seem to be subjective - some parents have no problem disowning their children and hating them and some children have no problem hating their parents with a bitter and strong intensity. Obviously some husbands and wife have no problem with divorce and bitter hatred and separation.

Human love is not perfect. The parent-child love is probably as close as human love gets to perfect, which is why I think it is no coincidence that God is described over and over as our Father.

Gods love is perfect, His justice is perfect, His holiness is perfect and all those (in conjunction with other things) have to work in unison. God's mercy is the only thing that can trump His judgement and His mercy comes out of His love - but mercy and love are not things that can be forced upon someone - they have to be chosen.

 

[DandyAndy]

do you consider yourself holy because you are a believer?

Amongst other people, my peers and fellow humans? Nope. I am about as unholy as it gets actually - I'll always be a wicked sinner in this flesh/life.

God sees me as holy but only because God sees me spotless and clean as a result of the blood of Christ and the things he did for me and my acceptance of those things and my recognition and repentance of those terrible things I did/do. Every day I screw up I stain those white garments and every day God is faithful to forgive me because of Christ.

But I would never consider myself holy until God declares me so after death and judgement and all that stuff - and even then I would have to defer my holiness to God, because only He could have made me that way. My God is holy and the only way I could ever be considered as such is because of the grace and love of my God and the sacrifice of Christ. Because of Christ I am justified before God, but I am only beginning the road of sanctification.

 

[waitasec]

Because they are guilty of sin and thus are not holy. The two are intertwined.

so as a believer you are not guilty of sin and are holy then
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

God doesn't need it to be reciprocated - He wants it to be.

why? isn't he in a more secure position than that.
the love we have for our significant others (spouses) treads on insecurity because we are insecure creatures right? if love isn't returned the relationship becomes a one way street and we know where that leads...hell on earth.

I tie love and faith together because it is impossible to please God without faith and if I have faith in the things He did and said and promises, the only true reaction is love. This is why I say we need to reciprocate it - how can I believe all this awesome stuff and then shrug it off like it doesn't matter? It's the whole judge the tree by its fruits and whatnot - if a man is faithful and believes, love will overflow as a result of that faith.

i see a double standard.
jesus gave his generation a chance to meet him they didn't need faith because he gave them an opportunity to see what he could do...

What are you referring to when you say insecure motive?

my love for my son will never cease...my arms will always be open...

With any of what? Our personal lives and our personal choices?

yes

If we are His creation and are made in His image as the Bible teaches, then of course He would concern Himself with us.

.
but why? it doesn't add up.
this notion that we are the center of the universe
and all that surrounds us is here to support our lives doesn't seem to gel with
how indifference and random events affect our lives.

I guess nature appears to act indifferent, but how is life indifferent?

when a god fearing couple gives birth to a sociopath their lives are subjected to indifference.

To be honest I don't have a son (or daughter) so I can't understand it on your level if you do have a son (or daughter).

But I see what you are saying, yes. I think God loves us even if we are unbelieving sinners that hate Him,

lets clear this up.
how can i hate something that doesn't exist?
if god existed i would be the 1st in line to say so...but the jury is still out on this one, it has been for quite sometime.

if my son or daughter didn't know of my existence why would i reject them?
seems like a rather trivial pursuit for a deity who is considered perfect.

which is why Jesus died for ALL people. Jesus didn't just die for the people God knew would believe in Him - now His forgiveness is only applied to those that believe it, but it is made available to all people.

that's fine and all but i still have to revert to the notion that certain believers appoint themselves as morally superior because they believe they no longer sin in gods eyes and they are now holy, which only looks like an excuse for bad behavior, just like anything else.

Unfortunately there is a time when justice has to enter the picture.

justice is just another word for revenge.
how am i hurting god, or anyone for that matter, by not believing in it?

But only God is holy and perfect. We are not. If I had a son and he killed my wife (his mother) I would have a hard time loving him, but I probably still would. But in that situation I am not judge, I am not holy - I am only a broken, sinful father. God is both Holy Father and perfect judge; God has to carry out justice, which means condemning His own creation to Hell because of the choices that child made.

An earthly father is not in such a position.

well no one would... hence the indifference of life.

The two are different, because the relationship is different, I will admit that. But between humans the bonds seem to be subjective - some parents have no problem disowning their children and hating them and some children have no problem hating their parents with a bitter and strong intensity.

would you consider that normal? of course not. those are deviant attributes that sociopaths display, would you agree?

Obviously some husbands and wife have no problem with divorce and bitter hatred and separation.

because humans are insecure creatures.

Human love is not perfect. The parent-child love is probably as close as human love gets to perfect, which is why I think it is no coincidence that God is described over and over as our Father.

but his love seems to be more of a love between a husband and wife
the church is the bride after all.

Gods love is perfect,

ultimatums are not signs of perfection, it's a sign of insecurity to ensure a certain response. if you love something let it go are you going to hunt it sown and kill it if it doesn't come back?

His justice is perfect, His holiness is perfect and all those (in conjunction with other things) have to work in unison.

there is no such thing as perfection

God's mercy is the only thing that can trump His judgement and His mercy comes out of His love - but mercy and love are not things that can be forced upon someone - they have to be chosen.

i disagree. the only thing that can trump our judgement of one another is through tolerance and compassion and i agree these things cannot be forced it's a choice

what's wrong with that?