Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

[9Westy9]

Natural consequences (the details have been explained in other posts I think, as far as sin and the requirements of justice and holiness and whatnot).

We see it in nature all the time - touch the fire and you get burnt. Eat the poison berry and you will get sick. Drop the heavy stone on your toe and it will hurt. Most of those had to be figured out by trial and error, unless someone told the individual beforehand.

This whole Hell thing isn't a trial and error thing - someone told us very clearly about it.

Rebel against holiness, sin and do whatever you want, refuse the gift of forgiveness and perfection, and you will be separated from God forever.

In which case why does god give us one shot at life? Why did he use humans, with no more authority than anyone else, to write his work? Also if we learn by trial and error then why doesn't god give us that option in eternal salvation? Seems very unloving if you ask me. Then again it doesn't surprise me.

You are right to say that it is a choice, a very lopsided choice as far as which side to choose. If you ask me, that sounds like a very EASY choice.

Depends what I ask you to do. I could order you to kill millions of innocent people. What would you do then? Do you value your life over the many?

Well it took me a few months to decipher the most important parts of the thing - and that would be Christ. I personally find it very clear and apparent. I'll always believe that if you look at it without bias, it's impossible to miss - obviously that's my opinion.

Opinions don't necessarily equal truth.

I won't deny that it takes a lifetime (or more) to completely understand the entire Bible and every parable and every historical event and every quote and every prophesy, but that is not a requirement for making the choice we are discussing.

Seriously? I'd say it's an imperative requirement where eternity is concerned. If we can't completely understand it, how can we know we've got salvation right. What if we got it wrong?

I think it's important to try and learn as much as you can - I don't think we should make our decision and then never open the Bible again or study again - but a doctorate in eschatology and hermeneutics and Hebrew and Greek and ancient Jewish culture and whatnot are not required to make this choice presented to us.

I'm just saying that a layman can pick up the Bible and read a few books of it, look up at the sky and look within themselves and it all becomes clear and obvious.

Of course it's important to learn as much as you can. Just don't only concern yourself with the bible.

 

[DandyAndy]

so as a believer you are not guilty of sin and are holy then
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

As I said, in God's eyes, through the blood of Christ and repentance, I am holy and forgiven, thus sinless in His eyes. This isn't something I can laud over people - this is a gift I received as justification and when I stand before God and am judged, I will be sanctified.

I was always kind of confused on this verse because out of context it sounds like 'if I'm a Christian, I won't ever sin again.' But I sin still on a daily basis - I have a struggle that is outlined in Romans 7. But when Christ appears (which is alluded to in the verses before verse 9), when I am rid of this flesh, I will never sin again because I will be made anew (Revelation 21) and I will then no longer continue to sin.

why? isn't he in a more secure position than that.
the love we have for our significant others (spouses) treads on insecurity because we are insecure creatures right? if love isn't returned the relationship becomes a one way street and we know where that leads...hell on earth.

Exactly!

If someone doesn't love God and doesn't submit to Him or obey Him or believe Him, they would HATE being in Heaven, because they would be forced to be in Heaven. They don't want to be under God's authority, they want to make up their own authority, which is why they rebel against God through sin. Since Heaven is going to be a perfect place with no painand no sin, it's got to be made up of people that actually want to be there.

God is not insecure. He loves us unconditionally because of Christ. God cannot love sin and without Christ we are still sinful, so we need Christ to become sinless and restore the relationship.

Love between two people is full of insecurities because we are fickle creatures. When we choose to be sons and daughters of God through Christ, we are remade, and there will be no more fickleness or insecurity or fear.

i see a double standard.
jesus gave his generation a chance to meet him they didn't need faith because he gave them an opportunity to see what he could do...

John 20:24-30.

Not everyone that saw Jesus and the things He did believed, so seeing must not truly be believing...

my love for my son will never cease...my arms will always be open...

That's a good thing. But God is in a different situation and is not equal with us humans in terms of holiness.

yes
.
but why? it doesn't add up.
this notion that we are the center of the universe
and all that surrounds us is here to support our lives doesn't seem to gel with
how indifference and random events affect our lives.

He loves us. He made us. So He is concerned, He is involved.

Who says all this stuff was supposed to support our lives?

when a god fearing couple gives birth to a sociopath their lives are subjected to indifference.

I'm not sure where you are going there. I am going to leave it alone.

lets clear this up.
how can i hate something that doesn't exist?
if god existed i would be the 1st in line to say so...but the jury is still out on this one, it has been for quite sometime.

I don't know why I put that part about hating Him in there...I'm too lazy to go see what I typed in context. I never accused you of hating Him. I think I was making an illustration of some sort.

Oh well. It doesn't matter what the jury thinks, it matters what each individual thinks. I think He's there. You think He's not there.

if my son or daughter didn't know of my existence why would i reject them?
seems like a rather trivial pursuit for a deity who is considered perfect.[/QUOTE]

You left out the sinful and thus unholy part - God can't coexist with sin.

that's fine and all but i still have to revert to the notion that certain believers appoint themselves as morally superior because they believe they no longer sin in gods eyes and they are now holy, which only looks like an excuse for bad behavior, just like anything else.

That's on the shoulders of the individual, not God. God has nothing to do with that, Christianity has nothing to do with that - the individual using God and religion as a weapon or or a tool to control people is the only one at fault.

justice is just another word for revenge.

NO NO NO NO NO NO no that is crazy wrong. Go check your definitions.

how am i hurting god, or anyone for that matter, by not believing in it?

I never said you were hurting God or anyone else. Pure holiness, God, cannot be in the presence of sinful unholiness. Perfect white that mixes with even a drop of black is no longer perfect white - it's tainted.

well no one would... hence the indifference of life.

I don't know what this means either...

would you consider that normal? of course not. those are deviant attributes that sociopaths display, would you agree?

What is normal? Does something have to be normal to be right?

I think sociopaths display an inability to determine between what is right and wrong and also display severe anti-social behaviors. Does that definition fit the description of a son that hates his father because the father raped him as a young boy? I don't think so.

Does that definition fit the description of a mother that disowns her son because the son killed his sister and then set fire to the house and stole the car? I don't think so.

Now that I know the full definition of a sociopath, I would argue that God *may* see someone without the mental capacity to understand right and wrong (possibly mentally disabled from birth) differently than a non-believer. A non-believer has a full understanding right and wrong and if they are giving, caring and nice then they are certainly not anti-social either.

because humans are insecure creatures.

Indeed they are.

but his love seems to be more of a love between a husband and wife
the church is the bride after all.

That is for a group and that is a metaphor to show how the two will be united as one eventually. God doesn't love each individual as a husband/wife, He loves them as a son/daughter.

ultimatums are not signs of perfection, it's a sign of insecurity to ensure a certain response. if you love something let it go are you going to hunt it sown and kill it if it doesn't come back?

Who says? That's all subjective.

And God totally let humanity go when He gave them the chance to rebel and they did! He didn't stop them - He could have! He let us go, He let's us sin, He lets us make dumb choices and He simply sits and waits like a parent with the porch light on, waiting for us to come back home and come inside.

Except everyone has to come back home eventually (death) and not everyone wants to go inside the house - some want to be left outside to their own desires and choices. Eventually He will turn the light off and lock the door and they will be left outside.

there is no such thing as perfection

If God is real I disagree. If He is not real then I agree.

But God is real, so I disagree.

There must be some form of perfection, otherwise there could be no such thing as imperfection.

i disagree. the only thing that can trump our judgement of one another is through tolerance and compassion and i agree these things cannot be forced it's a choice

God judging us is not the same as us judging each other. The Bible says time and time again that we should not judge each other UNLESS we submit to the same authority. If we are both Christians under the authority of the Bible then it's a different story. 1 Corinthians 5:12

what's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with tolerance and compassion - I don't go around telling homosexuals and theives and liars and murders that I hate them and they need to change and on and on.

I do try to make sure nonbelievers know that without Christ they will go to Hell, but that isn't a judgement on my part, it's a fact according to my belief. And I try my best to display love and compassion when I tell people - I try not to force it on them but I try to help them understand because I love them.

The way I see it, there is nothing more loving and compassionate than telling someone about Christ and the fate that I believe awaits them without Christ. It seems cruel, evil and hateful for me to NOT tell them about it and keep this awesome gift of forgiveness, hope and love to myself.

 

[Friend of Bill W]

Have we done the 'Hell is not a Bible teaching' yet? And that Hell is actually a human device to get bums on pews?

I've got a very good essay on the subject somewhere (it's too late to go looking for it), but 'Hell' has evolved with human history to be the place of Hell Fire where sinners will be burnt for all of eternity. But I think a closer study of the Bible will show that it's not.

I've done a quick google and found this:

The Biblical Teaching of Hell

 

[DandyAndy]

In which case why does god give us one shot at life? Why did he use humans, with no more authority than anyone else, to write his work? Also if we learn by trial and error then why doesn't god give us that option in eternal salvation? Seems very unloving if you ask me. Then again it doesn't surprise me.

I don't see this life as 'one shot' I see every moment of every day of our lives as 'one shot.' You get countless moments per day, over a 70 year span. If you got 'one shot' to choose God per day and you only lived to be 50, that's roughly 18,000 'shots.' So give or take a few, I think we get more than one shot.

I can't tell you why we only get one life - that's just the way it works.

Who else would He use if He didn't use humans? Would you believe a gospel written by pigs or birds or lizards or aliens? The beauty is He used a mixture of people in positions of authority and poor, forgotten people to write the Bible - somehow that makes it more real to me.

Once you pass into eternity (I think) it becomes abundantly clear that God is real - you can't deny it at all - so you don't have a choice.

Doesn't sound unloving to me at all.

Depends what I ask you to do. I could order you to kill millions of innocent people. What would you do then? Do you value your life over the many?

LOLOL did God say you have to kill millions of people to be saved and go to heaven? That's ridiculous - we have a choice of belief - God doesn't order us to perform a certain amount of rituals, chants or tasks in order to be saved.

Opinions don't necessarily equal truth.

I agree 100%. I don't want anyone to mistake my opinion for truth.

Seriously? I'd say it's an imperative requirement where eternity is concerned. If we can't completely understand it, how can we know we've got salvation right. What if we got it wrong?

If you want to make sure you have salvation right, go read John 3. You can understand salvation from this one chapter alone. Obviously you need supporting evidence, prophesy and more detail to make it full and true and worth believing in, but you can read 1 chapter in 1 book of the Bible and understand salvation. There are other chapters which could explain it as well, Romans 8 would be a good one. There's more, those are just what comes to mind.

You are right to say that we can't just read one chapter or a few paragraphs and then settle it. But we don't have to understand the ins and outs of EVERYTHING to understand salvation - the most important part. We should try to learn as much as we can.

Of course it's important to learn as much as you can. Just don't only concern yourself with the bible.

I would make the Bible #1 on the list though

 

[DandyAndy]

Have we done the 'Hell is not a Bible teaching' yet? And that Hell is actually a human device to get bums on pews?

I've got a very good essay on the subject somewhere (it's too late to go looking for it), but 'Hell' has evolved with human history to be the place of Hell Fire where sinners will be burnt for all of eternity. But I think a closer study of the Bible will show that it's not.

I've done a quick google and found this:

The Biblical Teaching of Hell

Jesus speaks extensively about Hell. It's littered throughout Matthew.

I recommend reading Erasing Hell by Francis Chan. I'm half way through right now.

 

[Friend of Bill W]

Jesus speaks extensively about Hell. It's littered throughout Matthew.

I recommend reading Erasing Hell by Francis Chan. I'm half way through right now.

Are you sure Jesus was talking about 'Hell' as in the place the Roman Catholics say sinners will burn for all eternity, or about Gehenna (translated as 'Hell'), which is a rubbish dump outside of Jerusalem where fires burnt, and bodies of criminals were dumped?

The place where Mothers might try and frighten their children into behaving properly by saying, "If you don't behave, you'll end up in Gehenna".

And over time...

 

[DandyAndy]

Are you sure Jesus was talking about 'Hell' as in the place the Roman Catholics say sinners will burn for all eternity, or about Gehenna (translated as 'Hell'), which is a rubbish dump outside of Jerusalem where fires burnt, and bodies of criminals were dumped?

The place where Mothers might try and frighten their children into behaving properly by saying, "If you don't behave, you'll end up in Gehenna".

And over time...

Roman Catholicism doesn't enter into the discussion for me. I don't care much what denominations say - I look at the Bible. There is clearly some kind of destination which sinful unbelievers will be sentenced to and it's obvious (to me) that it will be for eternity - I will admit there is room to fudge in there, but I don't think that's a very good idea.

I am well aware of the three or four words used (Gehenna, Sheol, Hell, Hades) and while I don't understand the ins and outs of all four, it makes sense that Gehenna would be used as a metaphor for a real place.

Perhaps Hell isn't a pit of fire and brimstone where you get poked by hot sticks and demons - but whatever it looks like it is bad and it is an eternal destination and it is the outer darkness for sinful unbelievers without the forgiveness of Christ and it is eternal separation from God.

Fire or not, being separated from the author of life and the giver of all things good is as bad as it gets.

 

[Friend of Bill W]

Fire or not, being separated from the author of life and the giver of all things good is as bad as it gets.

That link in the earlier post I put up explains all the different meanings of 'hell'. Why do you choose some information that accords with your views and discard others that don't?

But isn't that just the problem with 'authorities'? You read one 'authority' and think, yes, this is correct, and then you can go to another 'authority' and read conflicting, yet just as compelling information.

So, it boils down to this; what does your God given common sense tell you? Would a God of love, compassion and justice torture someone for all of eternity for finite sins committed on Earth?

For me, the answer is 'no'.

 

[wayward_teen]

Fire or not, being separated from the author of life and the giver of all things good is as bad as it gets.

Not if you hate the guy you're separated from. :meditate:

 

[Friend of Bill W]

Not if you hate the guy you're separated from. :meditate:

If you're filled with hate, I would suggest that you're already in Hell; 'Hell' being a state of mind.

 

[9Westy9]

I don't see this life as 'one shot' I see every moment of every day of our lives as 'one shot.' You get countless moments per day, over a 70 year span. If you got 'one shot' to choose God per day and you only lived to be 50, that's roughly 18,000 'shots.' So give or take a few, I think we get more than one shot.

I can't tell you why we only get one life - that's just the way it works.

Who else would He use if He didn't use humans? Would you believe a gospel written by pigs or birds or lizards or aliens? The beauty is He used a mixture of people in positions of authority and poor, forgotten people to write the Bible - somehow that makes it more real to me.

Once you pass into eternity (I think) it becomes abundantly clear that God is real - you can't deny it at all - so you don't have a choice.

Doesn't sound unloving to me at all.

All of your examples involve learning. Do something wrong get puniched. With God that doesn't work. It's do wrong = eternal punishment with no second chances. Hardly fair or just IMO.

LOLOL did God say you have to kill millions of people to be saved and go to heaven? That's ridiculous - we have a choice of belief - God doesn't order us to perform a certain amount of rituals, chants or tasks in order to be saved.

Still it's very much a 'do what I say or else' sorta thing.

If you want to make sure you have salvation right, go read John 3. You can understand salvation from this one chapter alone. Obviously you need supporting evidence, prophesy and more detail to make it full and true and worth believing in, but you can read 1 chapter in 1 book of the Bible and understand salvation. There are other chapters which could explain it as well, Romans 8 would be a good one. There's more, those are just what comes to mind.

You are right to say that we can't just read one chapter or a few paragraphs and then settle it. But we don't have to understand the ins and outs of EVERYTHING to understand salvation - the most important part. We should try to learn as much as we can.

There are a lot of passages about ssalvation. Some say saved by grace others by works. So which is it? Then of course there's trying to figure out which holy book is 'correct'. Get that wrong and you're in big trouble

I would make the Bible #1 on the list though

Not suprised

 

[waitasec]

As I said, in God's eyes, through the blood of Christ and repentance, I am holy and forgiven, thus sinless in His eyes. This isn't something I can laud over people - this is a gift I received as justification and when I stand before God and am judged, I will be sanctified.

I was always kind of confused on this verse because out of context it sounds like 'if I'm a Christian, I won't ever sin again.' But I sin still on a daily basis - I have a struggle that is outlined in Romans 7. But when Christ appears (which is alluded to in the verses before verse 9), when I am rid of this flesh, I will never sin again because I will be made anew (Revelation 21) and I will then no longer continue to sin.

then it's true, god doesn't discriminate between unbelievers and sociopaths

Exactly!

If someone doesn't love God and doesn't submit to Him or obey Him or believe Him, they would HATE being in Heaven, because they would be forced to be in Heaven. They don't want to be under God's authority, they want to make up their own authority, which is why they rebel against God through sin. Since Heaven is going to be a perfect place with no painand no sin, it's got to be made up of people that actually want to be there.

God is not insecure. He loves us unconditionally because of Christ. God cannot love sin and without Christ we are still sinful, so we need Christ to become sinless and restore the relationship.

Love between two people is full of insecurities because we are fickle creatures. When we choose to be sons and daughters of God through Christ, we are remade, and there will be no more fickleness or insecurity or fear.

then why place this condition on belief? conditions are placed because of insecurity.

John 20:24-30.

Not everyone that saw Jesus and the things He did believed, so seeing must not truly be believing...
“Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe....“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

doubting thomas stopped doubting when he physically met the resurrected jesus. thank you for making my point clearer.
the gospel of john was written almost 70 yrs later and it was written for an audience that had never met him.
besides the timing of it all is very interesting. it had to do with the political and social climate of the day....2,000 yrs ago.
so, why wasn't jesus sacrificed instead of the flood?

That's a good thing. But God is in a different situation and is not equal with us humans in terms of holiness.

his love has limits, my love for my son doesn't.

He loves us. He made us. So He is concerned, He is involved.

he was more concerned about building a tower to nowhere then he was about the creation of the nuclear bombs...

Who says all this stuff was supposed to support our lives?

creationist...

I'm not sure where you are going there. I am going to leave it alone.

are you saying things like that don't happen? that is indifference, just like the example you gave of a son killing his own mother and how it affects the father.

Oh well. It doesn't matter what the jury thinks, it matters what each individual thinks. I think He's there. You think He's not there.

the jury in my head matters a lot.

You left out the sinful and thus unholy part - God can't coexist with sin.

right, sociopaths and unbelievers are in the same boat in gods eyes

That's on the shoulders of the individual, not God. God has nothing to do with that, Christianity has nothing to do with that - the individual using God and religion as a weapon or or a tool to control people is the only one at fault.

well friend, we live in a country that is 78% christian...
we live in a country where atheists couldn't testify in court,
same sex couples cannot receive the same rights as heterosexual couples who's had a president call atheists "unpatriotic", we have blue laws
our public education is subjected to religious ideals
we live in a country who's president called for a crusade...

NO NO NO NO NO NO no that is crazy wrong. Go check your definitions.

so my unbelief in god is worthy of eternal punishment in hell?

I never said you were hurting God or anyone else. Pure holiness, God, cannot be in the presence of sinful unholiness. Perfect white that mixes with even a drop of black is no longer perfect white - it's tainted.

life isn't black and white.

I don't know what this means either...

it seems you have a difficult time understanding the word indifference...

What is normal? Does something have to be normal to be right?

I think sociopaths display an inability to determine between what is right and wrong and also display severe anti-social behaviors. Does that definition fit the description of a son that hates his father because the father raped him as a young boy? I don't think so.

no it fits the description of the father

Does that definition fit the description of a mother that disowns her son because the son killed his sister and then set fire to the house and stole the car? I don't think so.

no it fits the description of the son.

you and i both know these things are not what our society calls normal...
but god doesn't see it that way. if the son who killed his own sister and set fire to his home gives his life to jesus on his death bed, he's all of a sudden white as snow in gods eyes, while decent people who never commits such an act who don't believe in god go to hell...is that justice? :no:

Now that I know the full definition of a sociopath, I would argue that God *may* see someone without the mental capacity to understand right and wrong (possibly mentally disabled from birth) differently than a non-believer. A non-believer has a full understanding right and wrong and if they are giving, caring and nice then they are certainly not anti-social either.

then why hold a & e accountable for something they had no understanding of before they partook of the forbidden fruit which put all of this in motion to begin with?

That is for a group and that is a metaphor to show how the two will be united as one eventually. God doesn't love each individual as a husband/wife, He loves them as a son/daughter.

no he doesn't. his love is conditional, as i have pointed out

Who says? That's all subjective.

And God totally let humanity go when He gave them the chance to rebel and they did! He didn't stop them - He could have! He let us go, He let's us sin, He lets us make dumb choices and He simply sits and waits like a parent with the porch light on, waiting for us to come back home and come inside.

Except everyone has to come back home eventually (death) and not everyone wants to go inside the house - some want to be left outside to their own desires and choices. Eventually He will turn the light off and lock the door and they will be left outside.

exactly, his love has limitations. for a being that is considered limitless i find that very odd.

If God is real I disagree. If He is not real then I agree.

But God is real, so I disagree.

There must be some form of perfection, otherwise there could be no such thing as imperfection.

i find the idea of perfection imperfect. there would be no surprises no improvisation. no need to utilize our talents to progress...it would be the opposite of inspirational.
it's kind of like a surfer riding a wave in a pond...

God judging us is not the same as us judging each other. The Bible says time and time again that we should not judge each other UNLESS we submit to the same authority. If we are both Christians under the authority of the Bible then it's a different story. 1 Corinthians 5:12

then why do christians vote against the right for same sex couples to marry?
(i'm not saying all of them but the religious right do seem to make a heavy impact on the matter)

There's nothing wrong with tolerance and compassion - I don't go around telling homosexuals and theives and liars and murders that I hate them and they need to change and on and on.

you just did.
putting homosexuals in the same boat as thieves, liars and murders is making a judgement call, don't you think?

I do try to make sure nonbelievers know that without Christ they will go to Hell, but that isn't a judgement on my part, it's a fact according to my belief. And I try my best to display love and compassion when I tell people - I try not to force it on them but I try to help them understand because I love them.

matthew 25:31-46
does not mention faith or belief at all. it is about how one treats others who are less fortunate than them, and i don't need faith or belief in a deity to be able to do those things, so why would i need it?

The way I see it, there is nothing more loving and compassionate than telling someone about Christ and the fate that I believe awaits them without Christ. It seems cruel, evil and hateful for me to NOT tell them about it and keep this awesome gift of forgiveness, hope and love to myself.

maybe i'm crazy but i believe if people worried about themselves and the way they treat other people you wouldn't need to tell anybody anything.
they will know you by what you do not what you say. actions speak louder than words. telling people they are going to hell is making a judgement because you think you are morally superior to unbelievers.

 

[Tristesse]

Fire or not, being separated from the author of life and the giver of all things good is as bad as it gets.

When you stop to realize that the "author" of life is also the one resposible for your "seperation"(aka tortured for eternity), it becomes a lot easier to want to be seperated from such a monster.

 

[waitasec]

When you stop to realize that the "author" of life is also the one resposible for your "seperation"(aka tortured for eternity), it becomes a lot easier to want to be seperated from such a monster.

:yes: indeed.

 

[DandyAndy]

When you stop to realize that the "author" of life is also the one resposible for your "seperation"(aka tortured for eternity), it becomes a lot easier to want to be seperated from such a monster.

That's a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire issue...our separation is because of the choices I have made and the sins I have committed. That seems to be a simple concept that is really difficult for some people to grasp.

If I reject His offer of reconciliation (Christ) then I'm damned for eternity - if I accept it, I'm rewarded with eternal life. Doesn't sound like a monster to me.

You are free to disbelieve but calling someone you've never met and seem to misunderstand a monster seems a bit naive.

 

[PolyHedral]

.our separation is because of the choices I have made and the sins I have committed.

Which are caused by...?

 

[DandyAndy]

All of your examples involve learning. Do something wrong get puniched. With God that doesn't work. It's do wrong = eternal punishment with no second chances. Hardly fair or just IMO.

You have a TON of chances to accept Christ in the 1 life you get.

Still it's very much a 'do what I say or else' sorta thing.

Hardly. It's a 'you made the wrong choices and screwed up but I love you enough to forgive you if you will accept me and submit to my way (which is obviously the best) so that I can make you perfect and you can be happy forever' kind of thing.

There are a lot of passages about ssalvation. Some say saved by grace others by works. So which is it? Then of course there's trying to figure out which holy book is 'correct'. Get that wrong and you're in big trouble

The only passages I know of that say 'saved by works' (in James) refer to the truth that real faith will produce works. Faith/grace is still a prerequisite. IF you read the whole book, he makes it VERY clear that works without faith/grace are meaningless because they mean nothing apart from faith (which is the only way to please God AND the only way to receive grace). And faith/grace without works is meaningless because if you had real faith and truly received grace, then you would bear the fruit of such good things.

If you truly know what Christ did for you and truly believe it and are truly thankful, then works will manifest out of those sincere feelings and that sincere gratitude and metamorphosis that takes place.

It's a fascinating concept, one many people seem to misunderstand/ignore.

Not suprised

Well if you're only going to read one book, you want to make sure it's the right one

 

[DandyAndy]

Which are caused by...?

My sins are caused by my choices. My choices are caused by my having free will.

I know that it follows that free will was given us by God. But, again, God giving us free will does not make Him responsible for what we decide to do with it. Toyota is nor responsible for my drunk driving accident and neither is Wild Turkey, the guys that paved the roads or the guy that invented the car.

 

[9Westy9]

You have a TON of chances to accept Christ in the 1 life you get.

Without enough evidence to even know if he existed

Hardly. It's a 'you made the wrong choices and screwed up but I love you enough to forgive you if you will accept me and submit to my way (which is obviously the best) so that I can make you perfect and you can be happy forever' kind of thing.

It's more a 'you made the wrong choices and saw no reason to believe in me, so go to hell for eternity'. How is his the 'best way' in comparison to other beliefs?

The only passages I know of that say 'saved by works' (in James) refer to the truth that real faith will produce works. Faith/grace is still a prerequisite. IF you read the whole book, he makes it VERY clear that works without faith/grace are meaningless because they mean nothing apart from faith (which is the only way to please God AND the only way to receive grace). And faith/grace without works is meaningless because if you had real faith and truly received grace, then you would bear the fruit of such good things.

If you truly know what Christ did for you and truly believe it and are truly thankful, then works will manifest out of those sincere feelings and that sincere gratitude and metamorphosis that takes place.

It's a fascinating concept, one many people seem to misunderstand/ignore.

when Christians themselves disagree on whether works are necessary it leads me to think that the bible is ambiguous

Well if you're only going to read one book, you want to make sure it's the right one

Or you want to read a large range of books to try and find the right one.

 

[DandyAndy]

then it's true, god doesn't discriminate between unbelievers and sociopaths

I hope you saw my note regarding the fact that I looked up the full definition of a sociopath.

then why place this condition on belief? conditions are placed because of insecurity.

Because belief is the only way we can be forgiven of our sins. That's how things work. Eating food is the only natural way to receive nutrients. Inhaling is the only way to naturally breathe. There's nothing insecure about that...

You seem to leave out the guilty of sin part a lot...

doubting thomas stopped doubting when he physically met the resurrected jesus. thank you for making my point clearer.
the gospel of john was written almost 70 yrs later and it was written for an audience that had never met him.
besides the timing of it all is very interesting. it had to do with the political and social climate of the day....2,000 yrs ago.
so, why wasn't jesus sacrificed instead of the flood?

What about all the people that saw Jesus and heard him speak and didn't believe? I clearly understand your point - you never saw Alexander the Great so do you have a hard time believing he existed or did the things attributed to him? What about Columbus or any other ancient figure in history? Have you ever seen them?

his love has limits, my love for my son doesn't.

I disagree with the first part. I know nothing of the second part.

he was more concerned about building a tower to nowhere then he was about the creation of the nuclear bombs...

Huh???

creationist...

Oh boy. Why do you assume I am a creationist? I guess you think I believe the Earth is the center of the universe and that it's only 6,000 years old and that I am an idiot too?

People love to attribute things to someone based upon a snap judgement of a one word label (Christian) so they can paint them as an idiot.

are you saying things like that don't happen? that is indifference, just like the example you gave of a son killing his own mother and how it affects the father.

:shout I hope someone is reading what I actually wrote...

How is a son choosing to commit an action indifference?

the jury in my head matters a lot.

If we were good friends having a face-to-face conversation I would make a multi-personality joke...but we're not.

As I said, the only opinion that matters between you and God is your own.

right, sociopaths and unbelievers are in the same boat in gods eyes

I'm starting to think you're not reading what I write and i'm getting sad.

A sociopath probably has a mental handicap, based upon the definition I read, one that renders the clear difference between moral right and wrong murky or non-existent. The Bible doesn't say much about how God will judge mentally handicapped people. It's very clear how He will judge normal, sinful, unbelievers with the full capacity to determine between right and wrong.

well friend, we live in a country that is 78% christian...
we live in a country where atheists couldn't testify in court,
same sex couples cannot receive the same rights as heterosexual couples who's had a president call atheists "unpatriotic", we have blue laws
our public education is subjected to religious ideals
we live in a country who's president called for a crusade...

Oh boy...have you spoken with every single person and figured out if they are a confessing follower of Christ? Or do you just trust one question that asks someone to pick a label, which they could define as anything from believing in God to just going to church on easter and Christmas?

And about that laundry list - don't you think the people making the laws or the president or the people doing those things are to blame?

That line of argument doesn't amount to anything as far as I'm concerned.

so my unbelief in god is worthy of eternal punishment in hell?

You keep forgetting the 'guilty of sin' part. If you take anything away from all this PLEASE remember that 'guilty of sin' goes hand in hand with unbelief. We are all guilty of sin...

life isn't black and white.

The afterlife is.

it seems you have a difficult time understanding the word indifference...

I have a difficult time understanding the odd ways in which you use the word to describe the birth of a sociopath baby...

I understand indifference as having no opinion one way or the other, being on the fence, not caring, being indifferent.

no it fits the description of the father

no it fits the description of the son.

you and i both know these things are not what our society calls normal...
but god doesn't see it that way. if the son who killed his own sister and set fire to his home gives his life to jesus on his death bed, he's all of a sudden white as snow in gods eyes, while decent people who never commits such an act who don't believe in god go to hell...is that justice? :no:

Where does the Bible say you can live your life however you want and then at the last moment expect to make a meaningful conversion? You assume it works that way and you assume that a few words can save a mans eternal soul after he spends 60 years living a life of rebellion, debauchery and purposeful sin - I'm not saying it's impossible, but salvation isn't a switch you can flick or a box you can check...

then why hold a & e accountable for something they had no understanding of before they partook of the forbidden fruit which put all of this in motion to begin with?

They understood consequences - you don't have to understand good and evil to understand that touching the fire will burn you, that drinking the poison will make you sick or that eating the fruit from that specific tree will make you die.

Especially when someone clearly TELLS YOU UP FRONT.

no he doesn't. his love is conditional, as i have pointed out

:thud: You are wrong but you are set in your ways, so I will make sure that it's know that I disagree.

exactly, his love has limitations. for a being that is considered limitless i find that very odd.

Sigh...

i find the idea of perfection imperfect. there would be no surprises no improvisation. no need to utilize our talents to progress...it would be the opposite of inspirational.
it's kind of like a surfer riding a wave in a pond...

You are really loosing me... what do a wave in a pond and talents have to do with God being perfect?

then why do christians vote against the right for same sex couples to marry?
(i'm not saying all of them but the religious right do seem to make a heavy impact on the matter)

I could explain my personal opinion on the matter without bring God into the issue AT ALL.

Then I could explain another personal opinion on the matter and bring God into it.

Neither has anything to do with politics.

you just did.
putting homosexuals in the same boat as thieves, liars and murders is making a judgement call, don't you think?

Nope, I'm just basing it on what the Bible says - since I believe the Bible, it shapes my outlooks, opinions and thoughts. I don't understand how that is a judgement to call something that is wrong, wrong.

matthew 25:31-46
does not mention faith or belief at all. it is about how one treats others who are less fortunate than them, and i don't need faith or belief in a deity to be able to do those things, so why would i need it?

You can hand pick a scripture, single it out and make any point you want...Christians get chastised for doing this (and rightfully so) all the time, yet it sounds like you don't even believe in the Bible and you are doing the same thing! At least the Christians believe that what they are taking out of context and using to prove their own personal point is true!!

Jesus makes the point that anyone that truly follows him will do those things - following Christ is not a requirement for doing good like this, but doing good like this is a requirement for following Christ.

maybe i'm crazy but i believe if people worried about themselves and the way they treat other people you wouldn't need to tell anybody anything.
they will know you by what you do not what you say. actions speak louder than words. telling people they are going to hell is making a judgement because you think you are morally superior to unbelievers.

You've really got this wrong, a big time misunderstanding. My faith in Christ, which is the only faith that provides eternal life, does not make me better than anyone else. In fact, I am commanded to think of myself as LOWER than everyone else because of my faith (Romans 12:3, Phillipians 2:3). So it actually makes me a servant of all.

Of course I think that God's word is the best one to follow - that's why I live my life according to it and I try to convince others that they should live their lives under it's authority as well - doing so will give them a happy and fulfilled life with meaning, purpose and hope for eternal life, which is something no other worldview or religion can give them.

Out of the love God showed me, I try to show that love to others.