I have always struggled with the notion of infinity and how all religious/spiritual teachings/writings interweave this into a code of conduct. Being brought up Catholic and given the opportunity to have an open mind to many teachings, I believe an awareness/consciousness exists that is what infinity is. The powerful message of Jesus Christ sacrificing himself out of love to forgive the sins of all of humanity, past, present and future is an infinite consciousness effecting awareness to the message that oneness of infinity is through one's understanding of love. Love is experienced on all levels of consciousness development and how we interact with others is "love of self" driven. The understanding of Jesus sacrificing his "love of self" can never be understood when we are trained and rewarded with "love of self" behaviors. Arguments and judgements as to right vs wrong or heaven vs hell or a myriad of "how we must behave" ethos become insignificant to the teachings of unconditional infinite love that Jesus has communicated to the consciousness of infinity.
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Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?
- Thread starter Lord_Dweedle
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
I don't know where you get this from. I have never seen it.
The favored get mor attention both ways, blessing and punishment.
Muffled
Jesus in me
The origin of that evil was Satan in the guise of a serpent. Eve simply had no defense not having encountered evil before. It is easy to take advantage of the innocent.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Muffled
Jesus in me
I don't sense that as happening. God simply points out the consequences of the act. It is so often that way; people commit sin without considering the consequences of their actions, although some are aware of the consequences and are willing to pay the price.
It is more a question of, why would he think that He could oppose God? I don't think there is an answer to that.
flouncing floo
Member
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
But God can simply change the consequences, if he were actually just.
Please do not try and second-guess my question. Where did Satan originate from?
Also, real-life intelligences do not do things for no reason. Only fictional characters do that, and even then, only the poorly-written ones.
Ghost of a Rider
Member
There are a couple of problems with this argument.
1.) The Bible does not indicate in any way that the serpent is Satan. The distinction is clearly made that it is the most cunning of all the wild creatures. If the serpent in the story was inhabited by Satan then the serpent, in fact, is NOT the most cunning of creatures since it was Satan, in the guise of the serpent, who was being cunning, correct?
2.) If Adam and Eve truly had never encountered evil before and had no understanding of it (something I said myself earlier in the discussion) then they could hardly be judged for giving in to the temptation could they?
Revelation [12v9] calls that serpent as Satan.
Remember Adam and Eve were created with healthy human perfection of sound heart, mind and body meaning only do wrong on purpose, willfully.
Adam was plainly told: you eat you die.
Since our imperfect leanings are toward wrongdoing temptation is easy for us.
Jesus integrity showed Adam could have easily resisted the forbidden fruit.
James wrote [1vs13-15] each is drawn out by his [or her] own desire.
But God can simply change the consequences, if he were actually just.
Please do not try and second-guess my question. Where did Satan originate from?
Also, real-life intelligences do not do things for no reason. Only fictional characters do that, and even then, only the poorly-written ones.
Why would God change the consequences [Go back on his word] ?
God can not lie according to Titus [1v2]
Satan originally was a perfect angel.
Satan was drawn out by his own desire. [James 1vs13-15]
One reason for the forbidden tree was that the tree stood for the law.
That forbidden tree showed if mankind would be willingly obedient or not to have God as ruler.
Since earth is to be populated by the descendants of Adam and Eve [Gen 1v28] then the passing of time was necessary for us to be born, and to also decide who we would like as ruler.
If you were out working in your garden and were interrupted, would you give up on your garden, or go back to it after the interruption was over ?
Satan caused an interruption in our God-given paradisaic garden home.
Jesus is the one to put an end to that interruption.
During Jesus messianic [1000-year] reign over earth the earth will become a beautiful paradisaic garden as originally purposed for faithful mankind.
From paradise Eden lost to paradise Eden regained is the reason and also the happy ending to Revelation.
-Rev 22v2; 21vs4,5.
Ghost of a Rider
Member
Revelations 12:9 referring to Satan as "that old serpent" notwithstanding, Genesis 3 makes it clear that the serpent in the garden was just one of the wild creatures. Why make the distinction that the serpent was one of the wild creatures and the cunningest of them when it was really Satan? And as I asked before, if the serpent in the story was inhabited by Satan then the serpent, in fact, is NOT the most cunning of creatures since it was Satan, in the guise of the serpent, who was being cunning, correct?
Huh?
If Adam and Eve, as perfect creations, had this desire and acted on it and we have desires today and act on them then, as I mentioned before to DandyAndy, the eating of the fruit changed nothing in that respect and was only significant in that it made them aware of their sin. It did not bestow a sinful nature on them that was passed down to us and doesn't make us today any more inclined to sin than they were.
Ghost of a Rider-
Adam and Eve's perfect human life meant being perfect in sound mind, heart and body to be able to choose to control thoughts, feelings and actions.
They were free to grow to fulfill that tremendous perfect human potential within.
Both angels and Adam and Eve were created with the ability to have a sort of instant discernment to make up one's mind immediately toward good or bad.
They had to try to sin.
Once choosing sinning they never change back nor ever repent.
Satan and his demons nor Adam nor Eve ever expressed repentance.
Through no fault of our own we were Not born with human perfection.
Once Adam sinned he lost his perfect DNA and passed down to us imperfection.
No matter how hard we try we can not stop sinning.
Every parent knows at birth its child's leanings will be toward imperfection.
Imperfection leans toward sinning. Sin leads to death.
It was really Satan in the garden because as we know snakes do not talk.
A superhuman power used that 'snake in the grass', so to speak, just as a ventriloquist would use his dummy. He did not have to inhabit the serpent. Just appear that way.
Snakes can be cunning in movement. Jesus advised to be cautious as serpents and innocent as doves at Matthew 10v16.
Only those that sin die. The faithful angels are alive.
And although sinning angels [Satan] do not die as we die they are sentenced to death.
Jesus will destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2v14 B; Romans 16v20.
Adam and Eve's perfect human life meant being perfect in sound mind, heart and body to be able to choose to control thoughts, feelings and actions.
They were free to grow to fulfill that tremendous perfect human potential within.
Both angels and Adam and Eve were created with the ability to have a sort of instant discernment to make up one's mind immediately toward good or bad.
They had to try to sin.
Once choosing sinning they never change back nor ever repent.
Satan and his demons nor Adam nor Eve ever expressed repentance.
Through no fault of our own we were Not born with human perfection.
Once Adam sinned he lost his perfect DNA and passed down to us imperfection.
No matter how hard we try we can not stop sinning.
Every parent knows at birth its child's leanings will be toward imperfection.
Imperfection leans toward sinning. Sin leads to death.
It was really Satan in the garden because as we know snakes do not talk.
A superhuman power used that 'snake in the grass', so to speak, just as a ventriloquist would use his dummy. He did not have to inhabit the serpent. Just appear that way.
Snakes can be cunning in movement. Jesus advised to be cautious as serpents and innocent as doves at Matthew 10v16.
Only those that sin die. The faithful angels are alive.
And although sinning angels [Satan] do not die as we die they are sentenced to death.
Jesus will destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2v14 B; Romans 16v20.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Muffled
Jesus in me
The Biblical God is more evil than any human ever and has no moral highground at all!
That is like looking at a full cup and calling it empty.
Anyone with enough sense to understand the Bible knows that God is good.
Muffled
Jesus in me
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But God can simply change the consequences, if he were actually just.
Please do not try and second-guess my question. Where did Satan originate from?
Also, real-life intelligences do not do things for no reason. Only fictional characters do that, and even then, only the poorly-written ones.
God is just. However the consequences are just. God told them not to eat of the tree and that should have been good enough.
Satan was originally an archangel (next to God the most powerful being in the universe) created by God and good.
Muffled
Jesus in me
The Bible indicates that the serpent took up an adversarial postion to what God said and adversary is the meaning of the word satan. That is not necessarily a direct indication of the personage of Satan himself but it does indicate his influence.
My version says "subtle" but I would translate it as "devious" instead of "cunning".
Does the creature have deviousness as a species or is it just that the species is attractive to the devious? At any rate we only have one instance of the species and not much information about it. An intelligent serpent that can talk is not available now and hasn't been recorded since the Adam and Eve event. Of course that could be the result of the curse. This is akin to the debate over whether Jesus is God because God dwells within or just a man because He has the body and mind of a man. Withut the spirit within would the serpent be devious?
Yes they could be because they disobeyed God. Obedience comes by faith not by knowledge.
waitasec
Veteran Member
then why did god TELL them not to?
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
They can be just if and only if someone can be shown to have a "will" that is not a merely fantastically complex chain of inputs, outputs and state changes. Can you do that?
Where does it say A&E were ignorant of good and evil?
Adam was educated in the knowledge that if he ate he would die according to Genesis 2v17.
God was teaching 'why' as in what was good in God's eyes for mankind.
Obedience = forever life.
The knowledge of good and evil from the forbidden tree left Adam with the knowledge of independence from God. Adam was now free to decide what Adam thought was good in Adam's own eyes, decide what was bad or evil in Adam's own eyes or Adam's viewpoint.
We are left with the issues that started in Eden.
We have the choice to make.
Do right in our eyes, or do what's right in God's eyes.
Is obeying God the best thing to do ?
By Adam turning away from obeying God as the best thing to do, then Adam was turning aside from divine law [what the tree stood for] and, at that fallen time, didn't Adam start to imitate Satan's ways in opposition to God's ways?
Adam, as our family head, not only took the law into his own hands by deliberate disobedience, and set up people rule as superior to God rule, Adam's imperfection transmitted sin, or imperfection, to us leading to death.
Sin's law tells us to do wrong. Unlike Adam, who originally was genetically, mentally, physically sound in every respect, we on the other hand, have a sin-like birth defect because No one is now sinless. 'Death' is not the cure all for sin, although death is the price or wage we pay for sin [Rom 6v23,7].
The curing or healing is via resurrection and then being judged righteous by the end of Jesus messianic [1000-year] reign over earth.- Rev 22v2.
Ending in: obedience = forever life.
Life forever in the heavens or life forever on earth.
Everlasting life in the heavens or everlasting life on a paradisaic earth.