Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

[waitasec]

That brings up a few issues though:
Was it really murder? Murder is defined as killing without justification, and in his mind (and the minds of many others), it was justified (restoring his nation, creating a "pure" world, etc).
Maybe God does view us as the same, I guess I won't know til I die.

i understand, hitler didn't think he was being evil, but what he did was evil from a humanistic POV...why would god be subjected to our individual opinion?

 

[DandyAndy]

I think a better analogy would be "You best forgo the ability to reason and believe in irrational and unsubstantiated claims and back flip through arbitrary hoops all while licking my boots or I'm going to douse you with gasoline and light you afire. Forever."

That's just your opinion, man.

 

[DandyAndy]

What an unhealthily misanthropic viewpoint.

I hope for the best but expect the worst when it comes to people - I have 0 hatred for humanity and I do my best to love people but I am fully aware of their evil nature and the possibilities.

 

[DandyAndy]

i agree we need to define choice
tell me if what god is offering more like this.

a final proposition, condition, or demand; especially : one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action
Ultimatum - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

it is also synonymous with importunity: troublesomely urgent : overly persistent in request or demand

Importunate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

or this...?

1 the act of choosing : selection <finding it hard to make a choice>
2: power of choosing : option <you have no choice>
3 a : the best part : cream
b : a person or thing chosen <she was their first choice>
4: a number and variety to choose among <a plan with a wide choice of options>
5: care in selecting
6: a grade of meat between prime and good
Choice - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I don't see it that way at all. I see it has a choice - you and I have a disease that we infected ourselves with because of our choices - and now we are faced with the choice of being healed and living forever, or remaining sick and dying forever.

If you want to talk about the fairness of the choice, that's a different issue and I think is at the heart of what you are saying. But I do not see the choice given to us in the way you do.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Happy Sunday everyone
Check this song out. I feel the spirit really strong when I listen to it, testifying that it is true.
The song is entitled A Child's Prayer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTZ1RhtK3Xs&feature=related

 

[DandyAndy]

The typical christian response is that God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves to hell by not accepting the choice of accepting god. That's a play on words since god is (according to the bible) the creator and controller of all things (what happens in life is either a direct result of god's doing or allowed to happen by god.
So in essence, god is (directly or indirectly) sending people to hell for not believing in him (if you believe the bible is the word of god).
So to answer your question, as a former christian for decades, I believe that, while there may be "something" bigger out there now or int he past, the whole biblical god was a man made (or at least man enhanced) deity that was designed to control others. Or, to put it simply, there is no christian god as outlined in the bible.

God does not control our free will. If He did, it wouldn't be free. Of course He 'allows' things to happen - He allows someone the opportunity to reject Him. And thus He allows for someone to choose their own fate and suffer the consequences of it. No play on words there.

 

[DandyAndy]

Do you not aspire to be good? Does that not then require a definition?

Yes I do. Yes it does. What's your point?

If a good action hurts someone or tricks someone or abuses someone, is it still a good action?

 

[PolyHedral]

God does not control our free will. If He did, it wouldn't be free. Of course He 'allows' things to happen - He allows someone the opportunity to reject Him. And thus He allows for someone to choose their own fate and suffer the consequences of it. No play on words there.

But God is implementing the consequences. They aren't some external thing that can't be changed.

 

[DandyAndy]

But God is implementing the consequences. They aren't some external thing that can't be changed.

I don't see why that would matter. God is an external thing that can't be changed. I don't understand your point.

 

[waitasec]

I don't see it that way at all. I see it has a choice - you and I have a disease that we infected ourselves with because of our choices - and now we are faced with the choice of being healed and living forever, or remaining sick and dying forever.

If you want to talk about the fairness of the choice, that's a different issue and I think is at the heart of what you are saying. But I do not see the choice given to us in the way you do.

interesting. we have the capacity to choose and are punished for utilizing it.
we have the capacity to question and are punished for doing it.
are we being punished because of our capacity?

 

[waitasec]

That's just your opinion, man.

one that makes logical sense no less...

 

[DandyAndy]

are you at all concerned what any insect thinks of you? do you think an ant has the capacity to understand your presence? that you also have the power to kill it with your fingers? what would make you destroy that ant knowing it's limited understanding of who you are? it knows something is there but that's about it, actually it's 1st instinct is to move away, why would you take offense to that?

I think I see what you are getting at. An insect has no soul and an insect was not created in my image by me. We cannot make our love for the insect known to the insect - we have no love for the insect. We didn't become an insect in order to save the insects. Making us the insect and God the human just doesn't work.

Also, you are making an erroneous assumption that we, as humans, cannot understand God's presence - a bunch of people fully understood the presence of Jesus, who was God, and others in the OT fully understood God's presence when they were in it (like Moses at the burning bush). We all have knowledge of God through His creation (romans 1:20) - granted it isn't full knowledge that comes with Christ, but that's what the great commission was all about.

lets look at this from a different angle.
if god is love, love is what? lets use 1 corinthians 13

I've heard this before - we cannot single out one component/aspect/attribute of God and do a full analysis of Him. This is both unfair and incorrect. I will agree that love is the best word to use if you want to simply sum up God, but if you want to fully understand God it is far from complete or accurate.

Just, merciful, holy, righteous, and a handful of other descriptors are necessary.

 

[DandyAndy]

interesting. we have the capacity to choose and are punished for utilizing it.

We are punished for making the wrong choices - that is how law works. If you break the law, you are punished. If we only made right choices, we wouldn't be punished, because we wouldn't break the law.

we have the capacity to question and are punished for doing it.

There's nothing wrong with questioning - where did you get that from? We deserve to be punished for breaking the law - something we freely chose to do.

are we being punished because of our capacity?

Nope. That's not Biblical (that I know of).

 

[tripleog2010]

I don't think you can go to hell for not going to any Church, because all of them seem to be more pagan than anything else. I believe there is hell for those who disobey God's commandments. Given some of your virtues that you listed--including maintaining your virginity--it looks like you're on the right track. Hell is for those people who violate the commandments.

Al
The Grace of Repentance: Keeping God's Commandments Grace, Repentance, Christian, Jesus Christ, God's Commandments

 

[DandyAndy]

one that makes logical sense no less...

Lol, that's just your opinion man.

 

[waitasec]

I think I see what you are getting at. An insect has no soul and an insect was not created in my image by me. We cannot make our love for the insect known to the insect - we have no love for the insect. We didn't become an insect in order to save the insects. Making us the insect and God the human just doesn't work.

then you don't see what i trying to get at.
an ant isn't you. an ant has a limited capcity of fully understanding you...
do you care? my guess is no.

Also, you are making an erroneous assumption that we, as humans, cannot understand God's presence - a bunch of people fully understood the presence of Jesus, who was God, and others in the OT fully understood God's presence when they were in it (like Moses at the burning bush).

just like a bunch of people fully understand mohammed
this is a subjective POV. not an empirical experience

We all have knowledge of God through His creation (romans 1:20) - granted it isn't full knowledge that comes with Christ, but that's what the great commission was all about.

nature has proven itself indifferent.

I've heard this before - we cannot single out one component/aspect/attribute of God and do a full analysis of Him. This is both unfair and incorrect.

so why do you do it?

I will agree that love is the best word to use if you want to simply sum up God, but if you want to fully understand God it is far from complete or accurate.

Just, merciful, holy, righteous, and a handful of other descriptors are necessary.

if you are willing to live with the idea god is a contradiction good for you.

 

[waitasec]

We are punished for making the wrong choices - that is how law works.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2541047-post333.html

If you break the law, you are punished. If we only made right choices, we wouldn't be punished, because we wouldn't break the law.

so god wants perfectly trained animals....

There's nothing wrong with questioning - where did you get that from? We deserve to be punished for breaking the law - something we freely chose to do.

romans 1:18,19

Nope. That's not Biblical (that I know of).

well it's a continual theme in the bible. where in the bible does it say god trusts our capacity for righteousness... ? gen 8:21 says we are evil...and we will continue to be evil...

 

[PolyHedral]

I don't see why that would matter. God is an external thing that can't be changed. I don't understand your point.

If God is benevolent, why is he sending anyone to Hell when He doesn't have to?

And don't say anything about "consequences". God created the world, and so therefore He's responsible for the way it operates.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

We are punished for making the wrong choices - that is how law works. If you break the law, you are punished. If we only made right choices, we wouldn't be punished, because we wouldn't break the law.

There's nothing wrong with questioning - where did you get that from? We deserve to be punished for breaking the law - something we freely chose to do.

Nope. That's not Biblical (that I know of).

The law thing, I agree with that.
Nothing wrong with Questioning, I agree with that also. I think of James 1:5
which encourages people to "Ask of God".

 

[waitasec]

if god created the consequence of hell
then god presents an ultimatum not a choice...
if god holds innocence accountable...god help us all.

what god wants, god gets
-roger waters