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Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
DandyAndy, I think what you said about the pond scum was beautifully said.
you should go back a little bit and find out what the current conversation is on this thread. I think you'll find it interesting.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
I don't believe faith is rational. It does not work that way. If you could rationalize this, there would no longer be any faith involved.

I would say that faith is rational. It seems to me that my faith is based upon evidence. Whether that evidence is 100% verifiable and valid is a different story and hotly debated, but I personally do not pull my faith 'out of thin air' so to speak, I have more than one reason and basis for my faith. Even if we personally saw Jesus perform miracles, we would still have to have faith that he was who he said he was, even though we saw it with our own eyes. The end of John (chapter 20) states that the works of Jesus are recorded and presented so that we could have reason to believe.

I will say that faith WITHOUT any reason or evidence IS blind and irrational. Some people may adhere to that line of thought, but I think most don't.

When I get in my car and turn the key, I have faith that it will start. When I get on an airplane, I have faith that it will take me to my destination. When I tell my wife I love her, I have faith that she will say the same in return. These are petty examples compared to religion and are easily provable in the here and now, but I see a connection. When I daily trust in Christ, I have faith that I will live for eternity.
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
DandyAndy, I think what you said about pond scum was beautifully said.
You should go back and read some of the previous posts on this thread
and get caught up in the current conversation.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I would say that faith is rational. It seems to me that my faith is based upon evidence. Whether that evidence is 100% verifiable and valid is a different story and hotly debated, but I personally do not pull my faith 'out of thin air' so to speak, I have more than one reason and basis for my faith. Even if we personally saw Jesus perform miracles, we would still have to have faith that he was who he said he was, even though we saw it with our own eyes. The end of John (chapter 20) states that the works of Jesus are recorded and presented so that we could have reason to believe.

I will say that faith WITHOUT any reason or evidence IS blind and irrational. Some people may adhere to that line of thought, but I think most don't.

When I get in my car and turn the key, I have faith that it will start. When I get on an airplane, I have faith that it will take me to my destination. When I tell my wife I love her, I have faith that she will say the same in return. These are petty examples compared to religion and are easily provable in the here and now, but I see a connection. When I daily trust in Christ, I have faith that I will live for eternity.

so,
Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

is it because he's insecure? is it because he's an egomaniac?
is it because he thrives on being acknowledged? is it because if we don't subscribe to this ideal, that he exits, it's somehow offends him because he's insecure and an egomaniac and has to be acknowledged....

we are physical beings living in a physical world. what you fail to see is how small we are in the scheme of things...earth is no bigger than the size of an atom in comparison to the vastness of space and to think god is interested in what we think of him goes to show how some have given themselves an undue sense of importance....
 

blissie

New Member
I would say that faith is rational. It seems to me that my faith is based upon evidence. Whether that evidence is 100% verifiable and valid is a different story and hotly debated, but I personally do not pull my faith 'out of thin air' so to speak, I have more than one reason and basis for my faith. Even if we personally saw Jesus perform miracles, we would still have to have faith that he was who he said he was, even though we saw it with our own eyes. The end of John (chapter 20) states that the works of Jesus are recorded and presented so that we could have reason to believe.

I will say that faith WITHOUT any reason or evidence IS blind and irrational. Some people may adhere to that line of thought, but I think most don't.

When I get in my car and turn the key, I have faith that it will start. When I get on an airplane, I have faith that it will take me to my destination. When I tell my wife I love her, I have faith that she will say the same in return. These are petty examples compared to religion and are easily provable in the here and now, but I see a connection. When I daily trust in Christ, I have faith that I will live for eternity.

The examples of faith you've cited are somewhat the same as religious faith, in that they are a result of conditioning or learned behavior.
 

Yanni

Active Member
tell me what was written on the soldiers belt buckle...?
"Gott mit uns" ("God is with us")


remember humans are evolving primates... god condoned the beating of slaves within an inch of their lives and the selling off of their children... funny, god is no better than we are
First of all, the Nazis obviously had a distorted vision of God and morals. And where dies it say that God condones the beating of slaves? As a matter of fact, the slaves/servants of the Jews were granted rights by God Himself. The Torah states, for example, that if a person has a slave, he must treat the slave as himself; if YOU sleep on a memory foam mattress and pillow, you are required to provide HIM with the same kind of bed and pillow. Slaves of Jews were treated better than any other slaves I've ever heard of.
 

Yeshe Dawa

Lotus Born
Slaves of Jews were treated better than any other slaves I've ever heard of.

Hi Yanni!

I had a few questions after reading your post. Do you believe that it is acceptable for human beings to be slaves, no matter how well they are treated? And does your tradition translate such passages in your scriptures on slavery literally?

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:
 

Yanni

Active Member
Hi Yanni!

I had a few questions after reading your post. Do you believe that it is acceptable for human beings to be slaves, no matter how well they are treated? And does your tradition translate such passages in your scriptures on slavery literally?

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:
Let me explain the concept of Jewish slaves. In Biblical times and while we resided in the Land of Israel before our exile from the Land, if a Jew stole from someone or caused major damage and didn't have the funds to pay for his damage, then he would sell himself as a slave (which is merely like a maid or cleaning lady, or a male who does some kind of permanent residence, hence like a servant or slave) in order to accumulate money so that he will be able to pay those whom he damaged. In fact, a Jewish slave was only allowed to serve a maximum of 6 years in "slavery" (I wouldn't really call it slavery, because that word has come to be related to harsh slavery, like in the south, which is no where near what Jewish slavery is all about). Jews were NEVER allowed to forcibly make someone work for him. After 6 years, the slave was allowed to leave freely. But God, in His perfect goodness, would not allow anyone to treat slaves as third-class citizens. They had to be given the same food as the master, the same sleep accommodations, the same kind of clothing as the master - basically, the slave had to be considered no less than a member of the family.
 

Yeshe Dawa

Lotus Born
Let me explain the concept of Jewish slaves. In Biblical times and while we resided in the Land of Israel before our exile from the Land, if a Jew stole from someone or caused major damage and didn't have the funds to pay for his damage, then he would sell himself as a slave (which is merely like a maid or cleaning lady, or a male who does some kind of permanent residence, hence like a servant or slave) in order to accumulate money so that he will be able to pay those whom he damaged. In fact, a Jewish slave was only allowed to serve a maximum of 6 years in "slavery" (I wouldn't really call it slavery, because that word has come to be related to harsh slavery, like in the south, which is no where near what Jewish slavery is all about). Jews were NEVER allowed to forcibly make someone work for him. After 6 years, the slave was allowed to leave freely. But God, in His perfect goodness, would not allow anyone to treat slaves as third-class citizens. They had to be given the same food as the master, the same sleep accommodations, the same kind of clothing as the master - basically, the slave had to be considered no less than a member of the family.

Hi Yanni!

Thank you for taking the time to explain. From the example you gave it sounds more like a sentence to public service or a work-release program. Did the person have to work for the family that they had stolen from or did they work for someone else and then pay back the money?

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
First of all, the Nazis obviously had a distorted vision of God and morals.
as i think you have.
do you really think that their sense of morals were off from their point of view?
of course not...
do you think that the hijackers of 9/11 were not serious about their religious belief? of course they were.

And where dies it say that God condones the beating of slaves? As a matter of fact, the slaves/servants of the Jews were granted rights by God Himself. The Torah states, for example, that if a person has a slave, he must treat the slave as himself; if YOU sleep on a memory foam mattress and pillow, you are required to provide HIM with the same kind of bed and pillow. Slaves of Jews were treated better than any other slaves I've ever heard of.

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property....

i don't know about you but a person being regarded as another persons property goes a bit too for my sense of morality.
 
Im going to get straight to the point.

I am no Athiest. I believe there IS a higher power but I do not believe he is as wrathful as most Church's make him/her out to be.

What gets me angry about alot of Church's is that unless you follow their particular way of worship you will go to hell. What kind of rubbish is this? I thought Jesus taught people to love thy neighbor not judgeing them on Race or Religion? Or am I wrong here?

Nearly all people who participate in Church are very Judgemental, I have been told numerous times by Christians I will go to Hell if I dont change my ways..

I Don't Smoke
I Don't Gamble
I Do Partake in Alcohol but I Don't get drunk or drink to get drunk
I am a Virgin so no Sex either
I do not commit crimes

I guess they judge me wicked because I don't go to Church?
But why should I go to Church? How does going to Church make me more good?

I think God doe's Exist but I dont believe he will send people to Hell (If that place even exists) simply for " not believing in him " or not following a specific Church's practice.

Heres a Scenario.
(None of this is real it is made up as an example)

Jeff is a 43 year old man with 3 Kids aged 3,9 and 16 and a 39 year old Wife named Brenda.

Jeff is driveing home from work on a rainy night and a Truck who is driveing too fast lose's control and Smashes into Jeff's car. Killing him Instantly.

The Driver of the Truck is Arrested, Trialed and Sent to Prison for Manslaughter.

Jeff was a loveing Husband and Father and a great Friend to many.

Jeff was involved in many Charitys and raised lots of money to help Kids with disabilitys.

Jeff was an Athiest and did not believe in any god.

Uh Oh! Jeff did not believe God existed! Any Church Zealot would condemn him to Hell for this ungodly Sin...

My point is I cannot imagine God saying this.

Jeff. " But im not a Bad Person! ive made mistakes in life like a normal Human being but ive given most of my life to help people! "

God. " To bad you didn't believe in me so now you will burn in Hell for all Eternity "
---
God would not Punish anyone for being a Good Person. Never.
Shame on you for believing he would.
---
And for anyone who is too lazy to read this the Question is pretty much.

Why would God send people to Hell for being Good Careing Decent people?

My understanding of "Hell" is that it's just for really bad people.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
My understanding of "Hell" is that it's just for really bad people.
My goodness, we're got Latter-day Saints coming out of the woodwork! (Welcome from a fellow member of the Church.)

So how bad must a person be to go to Hell, in your opinion? And once there, is there any chance of "escape"?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
My understanding of "Hell" is that it's just for really bad people.

But Jesus wasn't a bad person! Jesus was in the biblical hell. -Acts 2vs27,31

There is a big difference between the 'eternal pagan hell' teaching,
and the 'biblical temporary hell' teaching. Bible hell ends: Rev 20vs13,14.

Jesus taught the dead are in a deep sleep-like state at John 11vs11-14.
Jesus would have known the Psalms such as: 6v5; 13v3; 115v17 where it mentions the dead being in a sleep-like condition.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place . RIP
King Solomon, who was known for his god-given wisdom,
wrote that the dead know nothing according to Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10.

When the Bible was translated into English such words as Greek hades/haides and Hebrew sheol were translated at hell instead of grave.
Gehenna was translated as hell fire because Gehenna was a garbage dump were things were destroyed but not kept burning forever.
Thus Gehenna [hellfire] is really a fitting symbol of: destruction.

The wicked, according to Scripture, do not end up in the biblical hell, but end up in: second death. -Rev 20vs13,14; 21v8; 2nd Thess 1v9; Psalm 92v7

There is no awakening [resurrection] from second death. Jeremiah 51vs39,57
Whereas, the majority of mankind have died due to 'inherited death' meaning our sinful imperfection is due to or inherited from Adam's imperfection passed down to us. Jesus is our ransom from such 'inherited death'. -Matthew 20v28.

Those of Rev [20v6; 5vs9,10] are resurrected and rule with Jesus in the heavens. The rest of mankind is to be resurrected on earth starting with Jesus 1000-year reign over earth such as Daniel [12vs2,13] and David [Acts 2v34].
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
But Jesus wasn't a bad person! Jesus was in the biblical hell. -Acts 2vs27,31

There is a big difference between the 'eternal pagan hell' teaching,
and the 'biblical temporary hell' teaching. Bible hell ends: Rev 20vs13,14.

Jesus taught the dead are in a deep sleep-like state at John 11vs11-14.
Jesus would have known the Psalms such as: 6v5; 13v3; 115v17 where it mentions the dead being in a sleep-like condition.
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place . RIP
King Solomon, who was known for his god-given wisdom,
wrote that the dead know nothing according to Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10.

When the Bible was translated into English such words as Greek hades/haides and Hebrew sheol were translated at hell instead of grave.
Gehenna was translated as hell fire because Gehenna was a garbage dump were things were destroyed but not kept burning forever.
Thus Gehenna [hellfire] is really a fitting symbol of: destruction.

The wicked, according to Scripture, do not end up in the biblical hell, but end up in: second death. -Rev 20vs13,14; 21v8; 2nd Thess 1v9; Psalm 92v7

There is no awakening [resurrection] from second death. Jeremiah 51vs39,57
Whereas, the majority of mankind have died due to 'inherited death' meaning our sinful imperfection is due to or inherited from Adam's imperfection passed down to us. Jesus is our ransom from such 'inherited death'. -Matthew 20v28.

Those of Rev [20v6; 5vs9,10] are resurrected and rule with Jesus in the heavens. The rest of mankind is to be resurrected on earth starting with Jesus 1000-year reign over earth such as Daniel [12vs2,13] and David [Acts 2v34].

Is it possible that the OT Sheol/sleep that everyone keeps talking about is simply the grave where people went before Christ and salvation were made available?

Where will the wicked/evil go when they are judged and found guilty because they lack the pardon of Christ?
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
so,


is it because he's insecure? is it because he's an egomaniac?
is it because he thrives on being acknowledged? is it because if we don't subscribe to this ideal, that he exits, it's somehow offends him because he's insecure and an egomaniac and has to be acknowledged....

Nope, none of those. God is 100% holy and righteous. He is perfect. This is His nature, this is what He is. So He cannot be associated with sin. If a pure white canvas gets a splash of black paint on it, it is no longer a pure white canvas. If God is 100% holy and righteous and gets mixed up with sin and evil, He is no longer 100% holy and righteous. So the two (God and sin) cannot and will not mix. Ever.

Again, God does not send people to Hell.

People choose Hell when they reject the pardon of Christ that can cover their sins and turn them from guilty to innocent before the judge that is God.

Think of it this way: Some guy down the street robs a store, then lies about it, then commits a murder. He goes to trial. He stands before the judge and the judge sentences him to life in prison. Did the judge send the man to prison, or did the consequence of the crimes the man committed send the man to prison? The judge only carries out the sentence because he has the authority to do so - he represents the law. God only carries out the sentence because He made the Law and is the only one with the authority to judge. A person does not go to Hell because God sent them there out of anger or spite or amusement; a person goes to Hell because they are guilty of crimes (sin) and God merely carries out the sentencing the person chose for themselves - they could have received mercy (Jesus) and been forgiven, but instead they rejected mercy and chose punishment. Everyone deserves to go to Hell, ESPECIALLY me. Anyone sentenced to Hell goes there because they chose Hell themselves.



we are physical beings living in a physical world. what you fail to see is how small we are in the scheme of things...earth is no bigger than the size of an atom in comparison to the vastness of space and to think god is interested in what we think of him goes to show how some have given themselves an undue sense of importance....

Nope, wrong again. I DO understand how tiny we are - you are 100% right to say that we are minuscule in comparison to the great big universe and beyond that envelopes our tiny granule of sand planet on this cosmic beach.

And the fact that God made us amongst all this beauty and shared all this beauty with us and is deeply interested in our lives enough to send Christ to redeem us is a wonderful thing because it means that God loves us in an amazing way that we cannot fathom. We certainly don't deserve it.

The sense of importance we feel, that yearning for something greater, is not man-made. God created us and created that sense of importance and love and meaning as a part of us - that comes from Him. Without God, a person cannot find that sense of importance or love or meaning and they search everywhere for it and cannot find it. They look in lust, science, knowledge, money, possessions, fame, power, pleasure, control, and all the other things we chase after and they can't find it because it can ONLY be found in God.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
The examples of faith you've cited are somewhat the same as religious faith, in that they are a result of conditioning or learned behavior.

Somewhat is the key word - the first time I flew on a plane (I only have like 4 times in my life), I had no prior conditioning or learned behavior because I had never flown.

I won't deny that some people believe what they believe because of conditioning or learned behavior, but I don't think it applies to everyone or every situation either.

Why do you believe what you believe?

Is it a result of conditioning or learned behavior, or did you do your research, think long and hard and come to a conclusion based upon the evidence, how you viewed it and your own personal experiences/feelings?

I would like to think it was the second - if not, I encourage you to do some research, some thinking and some soul searching - that's how I came to believe what I believe.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
My question is how many of us actually consider themselves to good people? FWIW I don't even consider myself to be a good person.
 

bigNavySeal

Member
Lord_Dweedle, a good and difficult question to answer in the light of available knowledge derived from ancient holy/religious scripture available to us today.

First of all, I myself am an Agnostic and have had my fair share of studying of religious scriptures. I have moments that I think God exists, on the other hand I realise that this physical world is so absent of a God-like metaphysical being that I sometimes hold another e.g. evolutionary answer to our existence to be true, and on the other hand again I regularly have the tendency to just keep it, yes an Agnostic mystery, something we can't really get an answer to. Maybe more towards a Buddhist tendency.

But since your question deals only with `God and Heaven-Hell´, we must see it in that light - trying to find out if there is a God that does exactly NOT that; sending good people to Hell just because they don't believe he exists? As many do, I would also like to give my own opinion on this matter, however since our knowledge/understanding of the concept of God has been derived from scripture, at this point it makes more sense to try and find valuable answers in there.

I will now quote various sayings that I like from an otherwise orthodox questionable believe system on various fronts. This could maybe make us ponder more on how (orthodox) religions may have it interpreted correctly or not, or how any believe system (stemming from your own mind even) interper God's (if he exists) "kindness" to us, as that is what it comes down to eventually. Is God kind/forgiving/merciful, etc. enough to send certain people to a good place, and is it one way or the other justifiable (whether Heaven or Hell)? Honestly, I too still have big question-marks about this, as so many other people rightfully believe, it's Ungodly, even Unhumane, to send any substantially good person, or even somewhat bad person, to eternal hell and damnation, no matter what they believe. This, I agree, in particularly today's day and age, is a very narrow-minded view of the world, and I doubt this is what the God that may perhaps exist has intended.

As I mentioned before below quotes originate from a currently orthodox religion, maybe you can tell by the end which one, however I want to take these sayings on face value trying to understand God's nature through available sources that deal with the specific God subject, so we could look at things in a different way (as that's the essence of the initial question of this thread). I find them interesting and taking a good look at various of these quotes, I could say that Jeff in your example, has a good change of being pardonned by this God, and going to heaven, because he was a substantially good person (even though he didn't consciously believe in Him).

Read the quotes first please, then we can ponder upon them and the possible part of it in the larger scheme:

There is a reward for kindness to every living animal or human.

Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers (& sisters).

All doings are built on intentions, and every man will be rewarded or punished (for his work) according to his intention

All mankind is from a single source, a white man has no superiority over a black man nor a black man has any superiority over a white man except by piety and good action.

Do not turn away a poor man...even if all you can give is a little bit to spend. If you love the poor and bring them near you...God will bring you near Him.

God does not judge you according to your bodies and appearances, but He looks into your hearts and observes your deeds.

The person who looks after an orphan and provides for him, will be in Paradise.

It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing.

It is better for any of you to carry a load of firewood on his own back than to beg from someone else.

People, beware of injustice, for injustice shall be darkness on the Day of Judgment.

Righteousness is good morality, and wrongdoing is that which wavers in your soul and which you dislike people finding out about.

The best among you are those who are best to their wives.

A woman was punished because she had kept a cat tied until it died, and (as a punishment of this offence) she was thrown into Hell. She had not provided it with food or drink, and had not freed her so that she could eat the insects of the earth.

(Each one) of you should save himself from the fire by giving even the smallest of charity. And if you do not find a just cause, then (by saying) a pleasant word to your fellow beings.

A prostitute was forgiven by God, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it.

While a man was walking along a road, he became very thirsty and found a well. He lowered himself into the well, drank, and came out. Then [he saw] a dog protruding its tongue out with thirst. The man said: "This dog has become exhausted from thirst in the same way as I." He lowered himself into the well again and filled his shoe with water. He gave the dog some water to drink. He thanked God, and [his sins were] forgiven. The Prophet was then asked: "Is there a reward for us in our animals?" He said: "There is a reward in every living thing."

He said, "The deeds of anyone of you will not save you (from the fire [of hell])." They asked, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O God's Apostle?" He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until God bestows His mercy on me. Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship, and always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise).

You should adopt humility. So that no one may wrong another and no one may be disdainful and haughty towards another."

God will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to people

Avoid cruelty and injustice for, on the Day of Judgment, the same will turn into several darknesses; and guard yourselves against miserliness; for this has ruined nations who lived before you.

Seven kinds of people will be sheltered under the shade of God on the Day of Judgment...They are: a just ruler, a young man who passed his youth in the worship and service of God...one whose heart is attached to the mosque...two people who love each other for the sake of God...a man who is invited to sin...but declines, saying 'I fear God'...one who spends his charity in secret, without making a show... (e.g. this could be Jeff?) and one who remembers God in solitude so that his eyes overflow.
 
My goodness, we're got Latter-day Saints coming out of the woodwork! (Welcome from a fellow member of the Church.)

So how bad must a person be to go to Hell, in your opinion? And once there, is there any chance of "escape"?

Thank you, Katzpur :)

I think it depends on the disposition of the sinner. Some have a good heart but in certain cases do bad things, sometimes consistently. Others just flat out love to do evil continually. The key is repentance. I believe it'll come much harder for the latter.

If memory serves, only "perdition" will have no "escape". The lesser baddies will suffer for a time, but even they will become Telestial.
 
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But Jesus wasn't a bad person! Jesus was in the biblical hell. -Acts 2vs27,31
I never said Jesus was a bad person. He is the Son of God. There is no mistaking His divinity.

And I'm going to have to go LDS doctrine on you for a moment. Modern revelation states that the word "hell" in Acts 2:27 is actually "prison" as in "spirit prison". A sort of temporary hell for spirits of the wicked, and also a place where the resurrected Savior came and preached the gospel to its inhabitants.
 
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