Why would God's ultimate power come with ultimate responsibility?

[Nimos]

Anyway, I don't know if I understand what you are asking. You have always been hard for me to understand. Not because of stupidity on my part, but because we think is such different ways.

That's ok, maybe im not explaining myself as clearly as I could.

My point was that when going through what you wrote, we can conclude certain things from it.

1. God wants to give us a chance to improve ourselves.
2. No one is born evil but can become so through choices.
3. We have to improve ourselves throughout our lives.

This causes some logical issues as I see it. If no one is born evil, then there is nothing to improve. Therefore not being born at all ought to be the best solution, we could go straight to heaven or whatever God wants.

The other part I asked you, is "personal", of whether you have ever looked at yourself as being evil? I don't think any people really do this. I don't even think Hitler looked at himself thinking "Wow, im pretty damn evil". That is not to be confused about someone doing something that they regret, like you saying something to someone that you later regret.

So what im questioning is the premise you put forward, that we become evil and that this is somehow required, but it doesn't seem logical, because everything is ultimately up to God and what he wants, and if he wants us to be good, then that is already the case when we are born, so problem solved.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's ok, maybe im not explaining myself as clearly as I could.

My point was that when going through what you wrote, we can conclude certain things from it.

1. God wants to give us a chance to improve ourselves.
2. No one is born evil but can become so through choices.
3. We have to improve ourselves throughout our lives.

This causes some logical issues as I see it. If no one is born evil, then there is nothing to improve.

I am going to focus on the last thing that you said.

People are born as a blank slate. Baha'is say we are all born good because we are all created in the image of God, but that doesn't mean we will live up to that image (fulfilling their full potential).

Just because no one is born evil that does not mean that people cannot improve themselves throughout their lives, from the time they are born until they die. Why do you think that is a logical contradiction?

Therefore not being born at all ought to be the best solution, we could go straight to heaven or whatever God wants.

If we were never born at all and went straight to heaven there would be no reason for earth to exist since the purpose of this physical reality is to is to improve ourselves. Aside from that, nobody get to go to heave unless they are worthy of heaven in God's eyes. Aside from that, heaven would not feel like heaven unless we had lived on earth first.

What God wants is for us to live on earth and learn and grow spiritually so we will be prepared for living in heaven.
Incidentally, I just got this article in my e-mail. They send me these articles every day, and this one is very pertinent to what we are discussing:

How to Pack for the Afterlife: Seven Steps to Eternity

So what im questioning is the premise you put forward, that we become evil and that this is somehow required, but it doesn't seem logical, because everything is ultimately up to God and what he wants, and if he wants us to be good, then that is already the case when we are born, so problem solved.

No, everything is not up to God and what God wants because God doesn't live our lives for us.
God wants all of us to be good but because we all have free will some people choose to be good and some people choose to be evil.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I still plan to answer your post to me from a few days ago but I have been too busy to answer, but you are still my favorite atheist so I will answer it as soon as I have time, hopefully today!

 

[Nimos]

I am going to focus on the last thing that you said.

People are born as a blank slate. Baha'is say we are all born good because we are all created in the image of God, but that doesn't mean we will live up to that image (fulfilling their full potential).

Just because no one is born evil that does not mean that people cannot improve themselves throughout their lives, from the time they are born until they die. Why do you think that is a logical contradiction?

My issue is why anyone would have to need to improve at all when nothing is wrong with them.

Nothing in the premise even remotely suggests that this is needed or even what you have to improve on or live up to.

It is like randomly pointing at someone and telling them to be better. Better at what? or why do they need to be better at whatever you think they should be better at when nothing has been established that they ain't already good at it?

Imagine this, we have 1000 newborns in total on Earth and none of them are evil. What should they improve? What are they lacking? or what could they do better?

If 10 of these people don't live up to whatever requirements God has for them (Again they are still not evil, simply insufficient for whatever reason), how are they going to improve? when the 990 are doing perfectly fine on their own?

If we were never born at all and went straight to heaven there would be no reason for earth to exist since the purpose of this physical reality is to is to improve ourselves. Aside from that, nobody get to go to heave unless they are worthy of heaven in God's eyes. Aside from that, heaven would not feel like heaven unless we had lived on earth first.

I don't know where you got the "physical reality is to improve" from? is that a Bahai thing? Still, it doesn't get around the issue mentioned above.

And you are correct that if we weren't born Earth might not be needed, but God's ultimate plan is to get rid of Earth anyway and make a new one, so there doesn't really seem to be a huge difference anyway. God already knows exactly who will go to the new Earth, it is not like each human surprises him once they stand before him. So even before you are born he knows whether you will improve or not. Therefore from God's perspective which is the ONLY one that matters, Earth is irrelevant, everything is irrelevant except what God says is not irrelevant.

What God wants is for us to lie on earth and learn and grow spiritually so se will be prepared for living in heaven.

This has the same issues as above. Can you surprise God? Is there anything he doesn't already know? So it doesn't matter whether you try to grow spiritual or not, either you are spiritual enough when standing in front of God or you are not. God already knows whether you will be or not, regardless of you spending all your time on spiritual growth.

No, everything is not up to God and what God wants because God doesn't live our lives for us.

It doesn't really matter if it is up to God or not.

Let's assume that I told you to throw a basketball and score some points. You have 1 throw, but you can do it whenever you like.

(I have magical powers and I know you will miss the shot.)

You are obviously clever, so you start practicing and do so for the next 50 years, you do nothing else than throw basketballs. And finally, you are ready and you throw and then you miss.

So you could just as well have thrown the basketball straight away and missed it and then spent the rest of your life not worrying about it, instead, you wasted 50 years practicing for no reason.

It's the same with getting into heaven or being spiritual enough, God already knows whether you will "miss the shot" or not, regardless of how much you try.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

The following is a post from an atheist I was chatting with on another forum. I told him I would post it here to get other opinions.

Nothing you said addresses that with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. The only argument you could make is that God is either not all powerful, not all knowing, or not perfectly good. Which is it? The badly written, badly edited, contradictory, book Christians follow makes no sense to anyone who's read it that can think. Heck you don't even have anything written about your God from the people who met him. So use logic, you can't have infinite power and not be responsible for everything.

responsibility
something that it is your job or duty to deal with:

• It's her responsibility to ensure the project finishes on time.
• She takes her responsibilities as a nurse very seriously.

responsibility

Hi and good evening Trailblazer.

Yahweh is the most responsible Being of this entire Universe, far more responsible than any human being. He is a Judge, and He is judge who judges righteously. Abraham recognized this all the way back in Genesis 18:25. The first humans were taught right from wrong from the start. Yahweh's responsibility was to educate His creation. He even gave visual symbols in the form of the tree of knowing the good and knowing the evil to help His new creation understand the importance of keeping His commandments. The tree of knowing good and evil was undoubtedly a very attractive tree with fruit which were undoubtedly very much unlike even the tremendously appealing fruits within Eden. Yahweh was trying to teach them a valuable lesson of not giving in to the allurement of sin and the world.

Yahweh promulgated His Laws through Adam and Eve, on down through their children and thousands of years later it was codified at Sinai. That was responsible, because then human beings would have the freedom of choice to reject His Laws or observe them. Yahweh created all things good, it is mankind that has corrupted His creation, just as it was in Noah's time. Humankind has a responsibility to keep Yahweh's Laws but do they? No they don't, therefore they bring upon themselves sickness, punishment and wrath. Humankind has also been give the great power of choosing to make their own decisions. This unfortunantly has been used to choose the evil rather than the good. Only those who prove themselves trustworthy, handling the Word of Yahweh correctly will be allowed entrance in to the Kingdom. As it is written:

"4 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, even as we obtained mercy, we faint not: 2 but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of Yahweh deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of Yahweh"

Handling the Word of Yahweh deceitfully includes rejecting Yahweh's Law, embracing the theory of evolution etc.

And when we are confronted with choices, which we are daily, we must always choose the side of Yahweh's Law. People don't realize the power that Yahweh's people will be granted in the Kingdom of Yahweh. They are things that Yahweh's people will be able to do that have not been experienced in this world. That power could potentially be used for evil. Therefore Yahweh wants to prove us to see if we are using the small power we have in the ability to make our own decisions for good or for evil, to see if we are responsible and if we are, He can then grant us more power, not just in the Kingdom, but even before that.

We all have a thinking mind, and although they are different thinking capabilities, we should be able to comprehend the glorious message of salvation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi and good evening Trailblazer.

Yahweh is the most responsible Being of this entire Universe, far more responsible than any human being. He is a Judge, and He is judge who judges righteously. Abraham recognized this all the way back in Genesis 18:25. The first humans were taught right from wrong from the start. Yahweh's responsibility was to educate His creation. He even gave visual symbols in the form of the tree of knowing the good and knowing the evil to help His new creation understand the importance of keeping His commandments. The tree of knowing good and evil was undoubtedly a very attractive tree with fruit which were undoubtedly very much unlike even the tremendously appealing fruits within Eden. Yahweh was trying to teach them a valuable lesson of not giving in to the allurement of sin and the world.

Yahweh promulgated His Laws through Adam and Eve, on down through their children and thousands of years later it was codified at Sinai. That was responsible, because then human beings would have the freedom of choice to reject His Laws or observe them. Yahweh created all things good, it is mankind that has corrupted His creation, just as it was in Noah's time. Humankind has a responsibility to keep Yahweh's Laws but do they? No they don't, therefore they bring upon themselves sickness, punishment and wrath. Humankind has also been give the great power of choosing to make their own decisions. This unfortunantly has been used to choose the evil rather than the good. Only those who prove themselves trustworthy, handling the Word of Yahweh correctly will be allowed entrance in to the Kingdom. As it is written:

"4 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, even as we obtained mercy, we faint not: 2 but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of Yahweh deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of Yahweh"

Handling the Word of Yahweh deceitfully includes rejecting Yahweh's Law, embracing the theory of evolution etc.

And when we are confronted with choices, which we are daily, we must always choose the side of Yahweh's Law. People don't realize the power that Yahweh's people will be granted in the Kingdom of Yahweh. They are things that Yahweh's people will be able to do that have not been experienced in this world. That power could potentially be used for evil. Therefore Yahweh wants to prove us to see if we are using the small power we have in the ability to make our own decisions for good or for evil, to see if we are responsible and if we are, He can then grant us more power, not just in the Kingdom, but even before that.

We all have a thinking mind, and although they are different thinking capabilities, we should be able to comprehend the glorious message of salvation.

Thanks for that perspective. Of course God is responsible. When I say that God is not responsible for humans what I mean is that God is not a short order cook taking orders from humans. Rather, God is only responsible for what He chooses to be responsible for. God is not accountable to humans for what He chooses to do, it is humans who are accountable to God. That is why some atheists have it backwards.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleaning, p. 73

 

[Trailblazer]

My issue is why anyone would have to need to improve at all when nothing is wrong with them.

Nothing in the premise even remotely suggests that this is needed or even what you have to improve on or live up to.

It is like randomly pointing at someone and telling them to be better. Better at what? or why do they need to be better at whatever you think they should be better at when nothing has been established that they ain't already good at it?

Imagine this, we have 1000 newborns in total on Earth and none of them are evil. What should they improve? What are they lacking? or what could they do better?

If 10 of these people don't live up to whatever requirements God has for them (Again they are still not evil, simply insufficient for whatever reason), how are they going to improve? when the 990 are doing perfectly fine on their own?

Why do some people go to college after they graduate from high school? Why do some people go on to be doctors and lawyers?
These people could just as well choose to do janitorial work right out of high school instead of spending a lot of time and money on college.
Nothing is wrong with these high school graduates. They do not need to improve themselves, so why do they want to improve themselves?

I don't know where you got the "physical reality is to improve" from? is that a Bahai thing? Still, it doesn't get around the issue mentioned above.

Yes, it is a Baha'i thing.

The Purpose of Physical Reality​

Why do spiritual beings--human souls--begin their lives in the physical world? According to well-known Baha'i author, scholar, and educator John Hatcher, the world is a classroom designed by God to instigate and nurture mental and spiritual growth. The Purpose of Physical Reality examines the components of this classroom to show how everyday experience leads to spiritual insight. Viewing life in this way, we can learn to appreciate the overall justice of God's plan and the subtle interplay between human free will and divine assistance in unleashing human potential. The idea of physical reality as a divine teaching device not only prepares us for further progress in the life beyond, it also provides practical advice about how to attain spiritual and intellectual understanding while we are living on earth.

The Purpose of Physical Reality: Hatcher, John S: 9781931847230: Amazon.com: Books

The Purpose of Physical Reality [Hatcher, John S] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Purpose of Physical Reality

www.amazon.com

And you are correct that if we weren't born Earth might not be needed, but God's ultimate plan is to get rid of Earth anyway and make a new one, so there doesn't really seem to be a huge difference anyway.

Where the heck did you get the idea that God plans to get rid of the Earth and make a new one?
There will be a new Earth, but that doesn't mean this Earth will be destroyed. The old Earth is in the process of failing down on its own and a new Earth is being built right now.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6- 7

Baha'is believe that the new Earth is a new world order in which we will see the spiritualization of the peoples of the world and man will become a noble being adorned with divine virtues and perfections: New Race of Men

The “World Order” that Baha’is envision pertains to a number of subjects: politics and governance, economics, society, and religion, as is covered briefly in this blog: Toward a New World Order?

God already knows exactly who will go to the new Earth, it is not like each human surprises him once they stand before him. So even before you are born he knows whether you will improve or not. Therefore from God's perspective which is the ONLY one that matters, Earth is irrelevant, everything is irrelevant except what God says is not irrelevant.

Everyone will live on the new Earth even if they did not participate in building it. Of course God knows who the non-participants and the builders will be since God is all-knowing.

This has the same issues as above. Can you surprise God? Is there anything he doesn't already know? So it doesn't matter whether you try to grow spiritual or not, either you are spiritual enough when standing in front of God or you are not. God already knows whether you will be or not, regardless of you spending all your time on spiritual growth.

That's true. God already knows who will grow spiritually and who will not, but we still have to put in the effort to do what God knows we will do.

It doesn't really matter if it is up to God or not.

Let's assume that I told you to throw a basketball and score some points. You have 1 throw, but you can do it whenever you like.

(I have magical powers and I know you will miss the shot.)

You are obviously clever, so you start practicing and do so for the next 50 years, you do nothing else than throw basketballs. And finally, you are ready and you throw and then you miss.

So you could just as well have thrown the basketball straight away and missed it and then spent the rest of your life not worrying about it, instead, you wasted 50 years practicing for no reason.

It's the same with getting into heaven or being spiritual enough, God already knows whether you will "miss the shot" or not, regardless of how much you try.

It does not MATTER that God knows where we will end up. We still have to put in the effort to get to heaven (doing what God knows we will do). If we "miss the shot" at heaven, that will be what God has always known would happen.

 

[Nimos]

Why do some people go to college after they graduate from high school? Why do some people go on to be doctors and lawyers?
These people could just as well choose to do janitorial work right out of high school instead of spending a lot of time and money on college.
Nothing is wrong with these high school graduates. They do not need to improve themselves, so why do they want to improve themselves?

This is a false comparison.

There are lots of reasons why some do this, let's just take the most obvious examples, being interested in a specific field, money, etc.

But this is not comparable to that of "good" or "evil", because it is not really a choice in this setup. You are born "good", and for some reason, you have to be better. But as you try to do this, you risk becoming evil due to the choices you make. And to solve this you keep making choices in order to improve yourself so you are less evil.

"Good" and "Evil" only make sense in a Universe with God as a moral judge, because in the end, it is to him we stand trial. But he already knows whether we are guilty or not in this setup.

Yes, it is a Baha'i thing.

If this is the case, it would make sense, if the saying "No one is born evil" were changed. If everyone is born a sinner and we have to improve, then there wouldn't be as much of an issue. It still wouldn't change why God would want this, because it seems utterly pointless from his perspective.

Where the heck did you get the idea that God plans to get rid of the Earth and make a new one?

It is from Revelation, obviously, this depends on how you understand it. I don't really think it matters, whether he creates a new Earth or simply "clean" up this one. The idea is that it will be completely different than what it is now.

Revelation 21:1
1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Revelation 21:4
4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Revelation 21:6-8
6 - And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
7 - The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
8 - But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Baha'is believe that the new Earth is a new world order in which we will see the spiritualization of the peoples of the world and man will become a noble being adorned with divine virtues and perfections: New Race of Men

The “World Order” that Baha’is envision pertains to a number of subjects: politics and governance, economics, society, and religion, as is covered briefly in this blog: Toward a New World Order?

This is fair, you are a Bahai after all and your view is different from others. I haven't read all religious texts, only the bible as this serves as the foundation for a lot of religions. I'm not going to say you are wrong, if the idea of a new Earth in Bahai means something else, simply presenting how it is described in the Bible. Again, some belief in hell and some don't, it varies from believer to believer, I know from you, as my Bahai teacher that the Bahai is vastly different than the other religions when it comes to the bible.

Everyone will live on the new Earth even if they did not participate in building it. Of course God knows who the non-participants and the builders will be since God is all-knowing.

Again, I linked what the bible says and clearly, that is not the case based on that.

That's true. God already knows who will grow spiritually and who will not, but we still have to put in the effort to do what God knows we will do.

Why?

 

[Truthseeker]

That's ok, maybe im not explaining myself as clearly as I could.

I do consider you a friendly person. I just have a hard time with dialogues with you. I'm letting my close friend @Trailblazer answer this, she has more time to do that than I do. I see that you have since then have discussed this with each other with apparently no resolution, though you have a respectful relationship.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do consider you a friendly person. I just have a hard time with dialogues with you. I'm letting my close friend @Trailblazer answer this, she has more time to do that than I do. I see that you have since then have discussed this with each other with apparently no resolution, though you have a respectful relationship.

I have more time right now, but I will have a lot less time after I go back to work on Friday, God help me!
I love @Nimos and I keep trying to answer his posts and then I get sidetracked by another Christian!
I will get to his posts though. I promise.

 

[Truthseeker]

I have more time right now, but I will have a lot less time after I go back to work on Friday, God help me!
I love @Nimos and I keep trying to answer his posts and then I get sidetracked by another Christian!
I will get to his posts though. I promise.

Oh, yes, your annual February vacation. I was going to ask if that was going on.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, yes, your annual February vacation. I was going to ask if that was going on.

The so-called vacation is over. Today is the last day.
I am pretty worried about going back to work tomorrow, not because of the work I will have to do but because of the changes that are taking place in how I do my work, new software and a new process. All I can say is help me Jesus, help me God, which I go around the house saying all day!

 

[Truthseeker]

The so-called vacation is over. Today is the last day.
I am pretty worried about going back to work tomorrow, not because of the work I will have to do but because of the changes that are taking place in how I do my work, new software and a new process. All I can say is help me Jesus, help me God, which I go around the house saying all day!

Believe it or not, I started my working life originally writing software. That was ages ago. Now I have trouble understanding my settings on my computer. I assume you are still going to be working at home. With your anxiety I can only imagine!

 

[Trailblazer]

Believe it or not, I started my working life originally writing software. That was ages ago. Now I have trouble understanding my settings on my computer. I assume you are still going to be working at home. With your anxiety I can only imagine!

Yes, I am still working at home. With my anxiety it is better to be working at home since if I get anxious nobody can see me running around or hear me screaming except the cats!

I turned on my work laptop tonight to prepare myself for tomorrow. First I have to make the connection to the VPN server and then I have to log into a remote desktop computer that is in the office, and there are plenty of things that can go wrong. Sometimes I get locked out because of my password and sometimes my internet is disconnected so I have to reconnect.

I always turn my work laptop on on on Monday nights after being off for the weekend because I don't like getting up early and facing that in the morning when I am still half asleep. Things went pretty smoothly which I did not expect after being gone from work for over a month. Tomorrow morning I will have to face all the e-mail and work that came in over the last month. I won't have to face the software changes right away, thank God!

Yesterday my counselor said she likes the way I have these routines to manage my anxiety.

 

[Trailblazer]

The free will argument doesn't hold up I think.

Imagine a scenario like this:

An innocent man (Person A) is about to get shot by a criminal. (Person B)

Person A didn't have a free will choice here, yet "evil" is about to happen to him.

God doesn't want to interfere with free will, so won't stop Person B, which means that Person A is now killed. So the conclusion must be that God allowed evil to win.

God did not interfere with the actions of Person B, so it was the fate of Person A to get shot by Person B.
God allowed Person B to kill Person A because God does not interfere with free will.

This seems contradictory to God being all good. Also, God doesn't have to remove free will, just evil.

If God removed Person B, Person A could still go around doing whatever they wanted to using their free will.
This means that the free will argument only seems to be an excuse for evil.

Why should a God remove the evil that a person commits, or else you think God is not good? The argument that some atheists present, because God is omnipotent, does not hold water. As I said previously:

The usual atheist answer is because God is all-powerful so God could do that, but that is not a logical reason for God to do it. God could also eliminate every thing from the face of the earth in a split second but God does not do that. In short, having the power to do x is not a reason why God should do x.

God does not need an excuse for evil because God does not commit evil acts. Only humans commit evil acts so only humans need an excuse for evil, and humans have no excuse, since God has revealed laws, that if followed would completely remove all evil from the face of the earth..

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

In fact, this might be true again it depends on the testament I think. God in the OT does say this:

Isaiah 45:7
7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Whereas Jesus says that God is the only one that is good.

Mark 10:18
18 - And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

I consider that a poor Bible translation because God does not create evil, only humans create evil.
There are other translations that are more accurate. God does do all the things noted below.

ESV I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

NCV I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.

NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.

NIV I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

I don't think this argument holds water, simply because if new life was considered good, then God might as well create the new Earth as spoken about in Revelation, and simply get rid of "Death".

But even if God created a new Earth, if no Death existed on that new Earth, how would there be room for new life to be born?

But then again, I don't think "death" as such is depicted as being equal to being an evil thing in the bible. I think if it was, Satan would probably kill a lot more than he does in the stories, but it is not a huge focus point. It's not like you have a lot of stories where Satan goes around and does evil things and kills people etc. The most obvious one is the story of Job and his children. But this is done basically with permission from God. God is a real arrogant *******/psychopath in this story, just looking on as Satan does what he pleases as that is what the "bet" is about, which is pointless because God knows the outcome. The purpose of the story is very clear, but it doesn't put God in the best light.

No, death is not evil, even though many Christians (particularly JWs) believe that death is evil and should be eradicated.
In the Baha'i Faith death is not evil at all, it is good.

32: O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

Again, it depends on the testament.

God in the OT, doesn't give a rats *** about anyone except the Jews. He is also not infallible.

These are very obvious examples:

Genesis 3:8-9
8 - And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 - But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”

This doesn't make sense for an all-knowing God, why on Earth would they try to hide and God ask "Where are you?" It also at least makes it more believable why the snake could deceive Eve, because God wouldn't have known. Obviously, as the bible changes, to the God Christians like today, he becomes all these things, like all-knowing etc.

Genesis 6:6
6 - And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

Again, completely unthinkable that the "modern" God could regret anything. Because that means that he screwed up, to begin with.

Just to let you know, I believe that the OT is anthropomorphic. It was men writing about what God did, not what God actually did.

Of course God could not regret anything because God is is infallible so God cannot make any mistakes!

So it would make sense that God wouldn't be responsible for everything based on the OT, but only for whatever he chooses to be. The problem is how he changes over time. The God in the OT especially in the beginning is very different from later on. As I said in the other post, they appear very much like different God(s).

The issues comes when you have to integrate these "extreme" powers God gets in the NT. And as you know the most common way to around it, is that a lot of these OT stories are simply that, stories.

God does not change, God is immutable. It is only the stories about God that changed from the OT to the NT.

A lot of the OT stories are simply that, stories, but the same is true of the NT.

There isn't a clear indication of where it is merely stories and where they are considered factual, as with a lot of other things in the bible it causes some issues:

Which in this list are made up? So how exactly does one reach the conclusion that some of it is merely stories?

You were correct in saying that there isn't a clear indication of where it is merely stories and where they are considered factual.
There is really no way to know which of the stories are fictional and which are factual.

If we go with the verse above, that God created evil. It is true, God doesn't have to be evil to have created it. But it still seems weird why he would create it, if he doesn't like it? It is basically like setting fire to your own house and complaining that it is burning

As I said above, God does not create evil, only humans create evil. God is all-good and an all-good God does not create evil.

No, God does not like the evil that men do, but since God honors free will God allows men to choose between good or evil.

Not really.

The Christians came after Jesus, Jesus also only cared about the Jews. Paulus is probably the one who "turned" God into the Christian version we know today more than anyone else. He was the one who wanted to spread the word, based on what Jesus commanded after the resurrection if I recall correctly.

And it is also at this point the whole "Follow the law vs Accepting Jesus" starts. Jesus is very clear about this, in my opinion, that you should follow the law. It is Paulus who makes the argument that you are saved through Jesus, despite Jesus clearly stating that you are not.

The will of God is the law.

I fully agree with that! It is the will of God that we follow the law. Paul really messed things up when He did away with the law.

No, that is a misunderstanding as well.
You have to remember that God does what is best for humans (Jews), even in the OT, he is their God to help them. So I think its wrong to assume that God has "bad" intentions, etc. Clearly, he was considered good in general.But again, our understanding of good is not the same as ancient people. I would be shocked to learn that the ancient Jews for instance thought the law was bad or evil etc. It wouldn't make sense if they thought that. Also Jesus is there to fulfill the law as quoted above. Because the Pharisees etc. are corrupting and exploiting it. That is basically what Jesus focuses on or in relation to that in the NT, until he is crucified.

I agree with all of the above. God does not change from the OT to the NT and suddenly become loving. God is good so God wants what is best for humans all along but as you said, our understanding of good is not the same as ancient people

God doesn't become loving in that sense, it is more about blaming humans for everything wrong. It is our fault for all of it, it is where we see "Sin" etc. get into the picture, and where God becomes blameless for it, Jesus being crucified etc. I would say.

Humans are responsible for everything that they do wrong, including sinning. God is blameless since God cannot do anything bad since God is all-good.

 

[Nimos]

God did not interfere with the actions of Person B, so it was the fate of Person A to get shot by Person B.
God allowed Person B to kill Person A because God does not interfere with free will.

Why should a God remove the evil that a person commits, or else you think God is not good? The argument that some atheists present, because God is omnipotent, does not hold water.

Lets try to establish what we mean by things.

Imagine this:

I'm rowing in a boat on a lake and 5 meters from me is a child about to drown. I can easily save it, no danger to myself or anything. Yet I decide to not do anything, simply sit there and watch the child drown.

Would you consider my action a morally good one? Imagine you were standing at the edge watching me, and you couldn't swim so you could save the child. But when I get to shore, would you simply look at me and say "I can't believe it was the child's fate to drown there?"

I consider that a poor Bible translation because God does not create evil, only humans create evil.
There are other translations that are more accurate. God does do all the things noted below.

It depends, troubles, calamity, and disaster is rarely considered something good and in most cases related to something bad.

But even if God created a new Earth, if no Death existed on that new Earth, how would there be room for new life to be born?

Maybe there won't be born anyone new, maybe God thinks that the amount is perfect.

In the Baha'i Faith death is not evil at all, it is good.

Obviously, it might be good in Bahai, I don't know. Again, based on the bible, it is not good either, again it is used in regards to punishments, and as I quoted from Revelation about the second death, that is clearly not positive. But death in other places in the bible is not considered especially evil, so it kind of depends.

Just to let you know, I believe that the OT is anthropomorphic. It was men writing about what God did, not what God actually did.

So in theory God could be completely different, there is no particular reason why couldn't be extremely evil and simply having deceived everyone, including Baha'u'llah? There is absolutely no way you would know that?

As I said above, God does not create evil, only humans create evil. God is all-good and an all-good God does not create evil.

Agree, if we accept God as the moral judge, then he can't do anything wrong. Obviously, I judge him based on my morality and in that case, he is a pretty damn evil God I think

I fully agree with that! It is the will of God that we follow the law. Paul really messed things up when He did away with the law.

Paul is controversial, he clearly "modernized" the religion, so it was more acceptable for a lot of people, I guess one could argue that Christianity wouldn't have become as big as it is if it wasn't for him. Because it was pretty damn difficult for him to convince "heathens" to get circumcised, that is not exactly an easy thing to sell

If you look at how small Judaism is, then it is very concentrated compared to Christianity, Islam had a lot more success in that regard, so it could be interesting to examine why that is.

But again, I try to look at it as objectively as I can, and that to me is to look at what the bible actually says rather than trying to interpret it too much. Again, I have no problems with contradictions as an atheist, so I don't have to make anything fit into a specific agenda.

Humans are responsible for everything that they do wrong, including sinning. God is blameless since God cannot do anything bad since God is all-good.

Well, this obviously go back to the question of original sin with Adam and Eve, and in my opinion, at least, I think that is probably in the top 3 if not the number one most evil thing God has ever done in the bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is a false comparison.

There are lots of reasons why some do this, let's just take the most obvious examples, being interested in a specific field, money, etc.

But this is not comparable to that of "good" or "evil", because it is not really a choice in this setup. You are born "good", and for some reason, you have to be better. But as you try to do this, you risk becoming evil due to the choices you make. And to solve this you keep making choices in order to improve yourself so you are less evil.

All I ever meant to say is that Baha'is don't believe that anyone is born in sin, as Christians believe.

We were all created in the image of God so we all have the potential to be good, but we are born as a blank slate, since no newborn baby is good the day it is born.

So it is like going to school, one gets smarter as one goes from kindergarten through grade school and high school, on to college and maybe grad school. One improves their character throughout life as they choose good over evil, but if they choose evil then they become evil.

"Good" and "Evil" only make sense in a Universe with God as a moral judge, because in the end, it is to him we stand trial. But he already knows whether we are guilty or not in this setup.

That is correct, and God knows who will become good or evil since God is all-knowing and God has foreknowledge, although we do not actually become good or evil until we commit good or evil actions.

If this is the case, it would make sense, if the saying "No one is born evil" were changed. If everyone is born a sinner and we have to improve, then there wouldn't be as much of an issue. It still wouldn't change why God would want this, because it seems utterly pointless from his perspective.

Nobody is born evil, but everyone is born with the potential to be a sinner so we have to try not to sin. No, as you said, that doesn't change what God wants. God wants us not to sin and to try to be good and improve ourselves over the course of our lives.

It is from Revelation, obviously, this depends on how you understand it. I don't really think it matters, whether he creates a new Earth or simply "clean" up this one. The idea is that it will be completely different than what it is now.

Revelation 21:1
1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Revelation 21:4
4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Revelation 21:6-8
6 - And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
7 - The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
8 - But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Where in any of those verses you cited does it say that God is going to build the new Earth?
Baha'is believe that humans are going to build the new Earth, with God's assistance.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6- 7

This is fair, you are a Bahai after all and your view is different from others. I haven't read all religious texts, only the bible as this serves as the foundation for a lot of religions. I'm not going to say you are wrong, if the idea of a new Earth in Bahai means something else, simply presenting how it is described in the Bible. Again, some belief in hell and some don't, it varies from believer to believer, I know from you, as my Bahai teacher that the Bahai is vastly different than the other religions when it comes to the bible.

Yes, the Baha'i view is different, but haven't you ever noticed how the Christians believe different things about the new Earth, what I refer to as the new world order? That should tell a logical person that the Bible is unclear as to what the new Earth will be and who will build it.

Yes, the Baha'i belief about hell is different from what most Christians believe, although lately I have been running into some Christians who share the Baha'i view, that hell is a soul who is separated from God and heaven is a soul that is close to God.

Again, I linked what the bible says and clearly, that is not the case based on that.

Again, the Bible is not clear on what the new Earth will be or how it will come about, which is why Christians are not in agreement about that.

Why?

God already knows who will grow spiritually and who will not, but what God knows does not cause us to grow spiritually. We have to put in the effort to do what God knows we will do (grow spiritually or not grow spiritually).

 

[Nimos]

Let's try to go around this some other way because I just don't get it

These are the premises:

1. We are born as a blank slate
2. God knows who will become good or evil since God is all-knowing and God has foreknowledge
3. We do not actually become good or evil until we commit good or evil actions.

One improves their character throughout life as they choose good over evil, but if they choose evil then they become evil.

Given the premises above and not violating these.

How is it possible for someone to improve their character throughout their life? Keep in mind, that in the end (Premise 2) God knows who will become good and evil. It is impossible to improve anything, the furthest you can go, is to say someone will be slightly less evil or slightly more good. But in the end, it won't matter you will still be either Good or Evil exactly as God foresaw.

Can you give an example (analogy) where this logic would hold true, and not violate any of the premises?

Where in any of those verses you cited does it say that God is going to build the new Earth?
Baha'is believe that humans are going to build the new Earth, with God's assistance.

Again, it depends on how you understand them.

Revelation 21:1
1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

How do you understand the bold text? Where did it go? What does it mean that the sea was no more?

Revelation 21:4
4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Imagine Earth where there is no pain, crying etc. The only way to do that is to wipe everyone's memory. So what difference does it make?

Yes, the Baha'i view is different, but haven't you ever noticed how the Christians believe different things about the new Earth, what I refer to as the new world order? That should tell a logical person that the Bible is unclear as to what the new Earth will be and who will build it.

I will grant you, that Revelation in general is a massive mess , which allows for a lot of confusion.

Again, the Bible is not clear on what the new Earth will be or how it will come about, which is why Christians are not in agreement about that.

It doesn't go in details what it is, but I don't agree that it is totally unclear what it is.

I think we can assume that it will look much like the current Earth but with new Jerusalem descending to Earth from Heaven. There even is a description of it, new Jerusalem is probably created by God, at least that is how I understand the beginning of the text (from God).

Revelation 21:10-27
10 - And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
11 - having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
12 - It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—
13 - on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.
14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 - And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.
16 - The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal.
17 - He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement.
18 - The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
19 - The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald,
20 - the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.
21 - And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22 - And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
23 - And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24 - By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
25 - and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
26 - They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
27 - But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

God already knows who will grow spiritually and who will not, but what God knows does not cause us to grow spiritually. We have to put in the effort to do what God knows we will do (grow spiritually or not grow spiritually).

This doesn't make sense. If you should follow that logic, then you ought to spend every single second on Earth trying to live up to God. I mean every second, no job, no nothing, simply pleasing God.

The reason for that is that you have no clue whether you put in enough effort. This logic to me, you might as well get from "How to scam people 101" It would probably be on page 1

 

[CG Didymus]

This doesn't make sense. If you should follow that logic, then you ought to spend every single second on Earth trying to live up to God. I mean every second, no job, no nothing, simply pleasing God.

The reason for that is that you have no clue whether you put in enough effort. This logic to me, you might as well get from "How to scam people 101" It would probably be on page 1

If religion was a scam... a man-made scam, all that would be needed is a prophet. This prophet could tell the people about an all-powerful, invisible spirit-being that is also all-knowing and also created people and the world. The prophet then tells the people what is the "will" of this spirit-being. The prophet says that the spirit-being wants people to love and obey him. He knows that people have the capacity to do good or do bad, to be selfless or selfish and so on.

He tells them there are some behaviors that are wrong. He tells them his laws and rules. He knows that people can and will break some of those rules, so he tells them there are rewards for obeying his laws and punishments for disobeying his laws. Some behaviors are so wrong that the spirit-being wants the people to kill any person that does those things.

But the biggest rewards and punishments come in some after-life in some spirit world. Those that do good will go to the spirit-beings place of joy and happiness. Those that do evil will go to a place of torment.

For us today, we've been born into a world that already has this or similar religious beliefs. How do we know any of them are true? The Baha'i Faith tones things down a little, but they evolved out of religions that had people stoned to death for breaking laws against doing any work on God's "special" day. Or for committing adultery, which included women that weren't "virgins" when they got married.

There were hundreds of laws. The people were even told what to do if they committed did some lessor offence. This God said they should repent and never do it again, and also to have a priest sacrifice an animal.

Now how did this prophet, assuming it was all made-up, get people to believe it? Who knows how it first started, but once it got going, it kept on going by "faith", and getting people to believe because the Scriptures said so. In those Scriptures it told of the great things this God did. He parted seas, sent fire from heaven. He knocked down walls to allow his people to go in and kill the inhabitants of a city. He was real and actively participating in their lives... so says the Scriptures.

Who and what this God is gets redefined as time goes on. What's important to this thread is how the Baha'is define God... or at least how one Baha'i defines God. God being all-knowing is an important part of how they define God. But is it true? Who knows? I don't know. For me, a spirit-being could just as easily have created this world and universe and put us and all the different creatures here as an experiment. Why does this creator have to know how things will turn out?

If it is an experiment, it seems that to truly be fair to all, since this spirit-being is going to judge them, they should have an equal chance in life to see if they freely choose to do good or do evil. But we don't. And who is completely good or completely evil? With any sort of God, things don't make sense. Without a creator and some meaning and purpose to life, things don't make sense. But what does make sense is that people have to curb people's ability to do bad things and to harm others. We don't allow "freewill". And even our God's give us their rules and laws and offer as heavenly rewards if we don't follow our "freewill" and do evil things. Or... is it our God's that are trying to get us to do the right thing? Or is it just us making up new religions and new versions of God to try and get us to do good and to stop doing bad and harmful things to each other?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm rowing in a boat on a lake and 5 meters from me is a child about to drown. I can easily save it, no danger to myself or anything. Yet I decide to not do anything, simply sit there and watch the child drown.

Would you consider my action a morally good one? Imagine you were standing at the edge watching me, and you couldn't swim so you could save the child. But when I get to shore, would you simply look at me and say "I can't believe it was the child's fate to drown there?"

I would consider your action a a morally bad one, because humans are subject to morality, but God is not a human so God is not subject to requirements and expectations to 'do things' that humans are expected to do for other humans.

God is not a human so God is not subject to morality. Only humans are subject to morality, to acting good or bad.

Morality is the belief that some behaviour is right and acceptable and that other behaviour is wrong. ... A morality is a system of principles and values concerning people's behaviour, which is generally accepted by a society or by a particular group of people.
Morality definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Whenever you use human analogies to compare God to a human and expect God to behave like a human that is the fallacy of false equivalence since God is not a human.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

The Meaning of Comparing Apples to Oranges When you're comparing apples to oranges, you're comparing two things that are fundamentally different and, therefore, shouldn't be compared.
Comparing Apples to Oranges - Idiom, Meaning & Origin

It depends, troubles, calamity, and disaster is rarely considered something good and in most cases related to something bad.

I never claimed that God doesn't case bad things to happen. God causes both good and bad things to happen,, according to human understanding of good and bad, but sometimes what we think is bad that brings on suffering ends up being good for us if it makes us stringer and better people.

Maybe there won't be born anyone new, maybe God thinks that the amount is perfect.

What reason do we have to believe that birth would stop? That is certainly not in the Bible. in Genesis God said to be fruitful and multiply, God never said to stop multiplying at a certain time. Because there is death that makes room for more life. I don't like death any more than the next person, especially if I lose a loved one, but death is part of life.

Obviously, it might be good in Bahai, I don't know. Again, based on the bible, it is not good either, again it is used in regards to punishments, and as I quoted from Revelation about the second death, that is clearly not positive. But death in other places in the bible is not considered especially evil, so it kind of depends.

When we talk about death we are normally referring to physical death, not spiritual death. Spiritual death is bad in both Baha'i and Christianity.

In the Baha'i Faith, physical death is not considered a punishment, it is just a part of life, and we are supposed to look forward to death with eager anticipation.

32: O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

I don't think there is anything inherently evil about death, but we associate death with a loss, a loss of physical life, and the loss of loved ones, but it is those who are left behind who suffer when someone they love dies, not those who continue to live in the spiritual world.

In Christianity, as you know, death is considered something bad, a punishment, and that belief is associated with the story of Adam and Eve who allegedly died because they ate the fruit from the tree. Baha'is believe that story is an allegory. What happened is that they died spiritually since they disobeyed God by eating from the tree.
Second death - Wikipedia

So in theory God could be completely different, there is no particular reason why couldn't be extremely evil and simply having deceived everyone, including Baha'u'llah? There is absolutely no way you would know that?

Of course, there is no way we can know that in the sense of being able to prove it one way or another. All we have to go on are scriptures that describe God's attributes. Since I am a Baha'i, I believe that God is as Baha'u'llah described Him, which concurs with the Bible for the most part, except for some of the stories in the OT, which is anthropomorphic.

Agree, if we accept God as the moral judge, then he can't do anything wrong. Obviously, I judge him based on my morality and in that case, he is a pretty damn evil God I think

If you are judging God based upon the stories written about God in the OT, I can understand why you would believe that.

Paul is controversial, he clearly "modernized" the religion, so it was more acceptable for a lot of people, I guess one could argue that Christianity wouldn't have become as big as it is if it wasn't for him. Because it was pretty damn difficult for him to convince "heathens" to get circumcised, that is not exactly an easy thing to sell

If you look at how small Judaism is, then it is very concentrated compared to Christianity, Islam had a lot more success in that regard, so it could be interesting to examine why that is.

But again, I try to look at it as objectively as I can, and that to me is to look at what the bible actually says rather than trying to interpret it too much. Again, I have no problems with contradictions as an atheist, so I don't have to make anything fit into a specific agenda.

Indeed, atheists are a lot more objective when it comes to the Bible. That is both good and bad, good because you see it for what it is rather than what you want it to be to support a belief, but bad if you take it at face value ans don't look for the metaphorical meanings of many of the Bible stories.

Well, this obviously go back to the question of original sin with Adam and Eve, and in my opinion, at least, I think that is probably in the top 3 if not the number one most evil thing God has ever done in the bible.

See, that is what I meant above. You are taking the story of Adam and Eve at face value, as if it is a true story of something that happened, with God as a character in that story. That is not how Baha'is interpret it. We interpret it as an allegory. I have probably posted this to you in the past but here it is again, as a refresher.

30: ADAM AND EVE

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's try to go around this some other way because I just don't get it

These are the premises:

1. We are born as a blank slate
2. God knows who will become good or evil since God is all-knowing and God has foreknowledge
3. We do not actually become good or evil until we commit good or evil actions.

Given the premises above and not violating these.

How is it possible for someone to improve their character throughout their life? Keep in mind, that in the end (Premise 2) God knows who will become good and evil. It is impossible to improve anything, the furthest you can go, is to say someone will be slightly less evil or slightly more good. But in the end, it won't matter you will still be either Good or Evil exactly as God foresaw.

Can you give an example (analogy) where this logic would hold true, and not violate any of the premises?

We are born as a blank slate. From then on it is possible to become good or evil. It is possible to improve, becoming more good (better).

God knows who will become good and evil. You will be exactly as God foresaw because God knows what you will become, but God's foreknowledge is not the cause of what you will become. You will become what you become by your own choices and actions. Put another way, God's foreknowledge does not hold us back from making choices and thereby becoming what He knows we will become.

Again, it depends on how you understand them.

Revelation 21:1
1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

How do you understand the bold text? Where did it go? What does it mean that the sea was no more?

I don't know what it means to say that the first heaven will pass away, but the first earth passing away means that the earth will be transformed so the old earth will exist no longer. This is not referring to the physical earth, it is referring to the conditions on earth, social, economic, political, and spiritual. Eventually there will be a new race of men on earth.

New Race of Men

No more sea does not mean there will be no more oceans. The seas are is symbolic for the divisions between people on earth, what divides us as humans.
No more sea means there will be no more division because humanity will be united. Since all humans have been created equal in the image of God, God does not make any distinction between people based upon race, creed, color, or religion, so neither should we. Eventually there will be one common faith.

Revelation 21:4
4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Imagine Earth where there is no pain, crying etc. The only way to do that is to wipe everyone's memory. So what difference does it make?

You are interpreting that verse literally but it was not intended to be interpreted literally.
No more mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away means that on the new earth (after the earth has been transformed as noted above) people will be happy because the former things (painful and sorrowful things that used to exist on the old earth) will no longer exist.

I will grant you, that Revelation in general is a massive mess , which allows for a lot of confusion.

I'll second that!

It doesn't go in details what it is, but I don't agree that it is totally unclear what it is.

I think we can assume that it will look much like the current Earth but with new Jerusalem descending to Earth from Heaven. There even is a description of it, new Jerusalem is probably created by God, at least that is how I understand the beginning of the text (from God).

Revelation 21:10-27
10 - And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
11 - having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
12 - It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—
13 - on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.
14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 - And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.
16 - The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal.
17 - He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement.
18 - The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
19 - The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald,
20 - the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.
21 - And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22 - And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
23 - And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24 - By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
25 - and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
26 - They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
27 - But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Baha'is have a completely different interpretation of those verses from ow Christians. interpret them, and different from what you said.

We do not believe that the new Jerusalem descending to Earth from Heaven is a physical city that descends from heaven.
We believe that the New Jerusalem is the promises of God which were fulfilled when Baha'u'llah came with His new Revelation from God.
The Law of God is the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, including His teachings but particularly the Laws that He revealed to us.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13

This doesn't make sense. If you should follow that logic, then you ought to spend every single second on Earth trying to live up to God. I mean every second, no job, no nothing, simply pleasing God.

The reason for that is that you have no clue whether you put in enough effort. This logic to me, you might as well get from "How to scam people 101" It would probably be on page 1

That is good logic on your part because we can never know if we are spiritual enough in God's eyes so we need to do all we can do to make ourselves better. However, we are mortal beings so we have to eat and sleep and go to work, so we cannot spend every single second trying to become more spiritual. That said, I spend all of my time on these efforts, whenever I am not eating, sleeping, working, exercising, or taking care of the cats and other business such as my rental houses.