Why would God's ultimate power come with ultimate responsibility?

[Trailblazer]

That is why I put it on a timeline.

If God "knew" something (3.) then we could just as well write it like this.

0. God knows you won't jump
1. You don't jump

We don't have to add anything else. There is no difference between the two ways of writing it.

All these other points are unnecessary when we agree that God knows everything. But simply using only 2 points, doesn't change the fact that this still has to align with a timeline.

You can't jump before you get to that point in the timeline where this event would take place and therefore the choice doesn't exist. God knows that you won't jump before getting to that point.

Whether you jump or not is either true or false. Therefore what God knows in 0. must always be correct, and therefore 1. has to equal that. Not because God knows it, but because 0. has to be filled in before 1. And 0. can never be wrong.

I agree with everything you said above.
If God is all-knowing and God has foreknowledge of everything that will happen before it happens then 0 will be filled in before 1.

But not for the reason you think

Look at the explanation above 3. can't be different than 0.

I don't know the reason you think I think.

You said in Post #383

0. God already knew. ​

1. You go to the edge​

2. You choose to not jump​

3. Therefore God knows.​

​

Points 0 and 3 have to match.​

I agree that 3 cannot be different from 0. They have to match.

Yes, but since you have to add 0. before 2, again God knows it before you even get to 2.

Yes, I agree. God knows 2 before I get to 2.

You wouldn't have a choice of X or Y, if 0. is already fixed.

If 0. is X, then 2. is also X, there is no Y, except the illusion of it being possible.

Why would 0 be fixed?

What God knows is not fixed, it is dependent upon what I will choose.
God already knows what I will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge.

I will do (2) what God knows I will do (0) because God knows what I will do.
Whatever I do (2) is what God knows I will do (0) but I won't do it because God knows I will do it. I will do it because I chose to do it.

So there are two possible scenarios:

Scenario A

0. God already knew I would jump.
1. I go to the edge
2. I choose to jump
3. Therefore God knows I will jump.

Scenario B

0. God already knew I would not jump.
1. I go to the edge
2. I choose not to jump
3. Therefore God knows I will not jump.

Whatever I choose to do is what God has always known I would choose do because God has perfect foreknowledge.

 

[Nimos]

Why would 0 be fixed?

What God knows is not fixed, it is dependent upon what I will choose.
God already knows what I will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge.

I will do (2) what God knows I will do (0) because God knows what I will do.
Whatever I do (2) is what God knows I will do (0) but I won't do it because God knows I will do it. I will do it because I chose to do it.

So there are two possible scenarios:

Scenario A

0. God already knew I would jump.
1. I go to the edge
2. I choose to jump
3. Therefore God knows I will jump.

Scenario B

0. God already knew I would not jump.
1. I go to the edge
2. I choose not to jump
3. Therefore God knows I will not jump.

Whatever I choose to do is what God has always known I would choose do because God has perfect foreknowledge.

Yes, but only scenario A or B can be true depending on what God knows in 0.

So if scenario A is true, then B is not an option. Likewise, if scenario B is true then A isn't an option either. Otherwise, God would be wrong.

That is why it is fixed.

I think you confuse yourself because you have knowledge of the event.

Try to look at it like this:

0. God knows that you will do a certain thing.
1. (You don't know what event is going to happen)
2. (You don't know what you will do)
3. God knew you would do what you did.

You don't have any knowledge of what it is God knows you will do. Therefore the moment you happen to experience this event, you will do what God knows you will, even if he is not the one that is the direct cause of it. So when you find yourself in whatever this event is, you think you have the ability to freely choose, but this was already determined long before because God knew what you would do.

Since God can't be wrong, what you choose to do is merely an illusion of free will.

You wouldn't do it because you chose to, you would think you did. But you can't change what God knows and since he knows it before you, you have no choice.

Essentially what you are arguing, is that everything you do throughout your whole life you have chosen through free will before you were born, kind of like you having filled out a spreadsheet and then forgotten it, but God knows it. And what you are basically doing is simply living according to the spreadsheet and all these choices you made. That would allow you to have free will, while God has perfect foreknowledge or at least the illusion of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, but only scenario A or B can be true depending on what God knows in 0.

That is correct. Only scenario A or B can be true, but that does not depend upon what God knows in 0, that depends upon what I choose in 2.
Whatever I choose in 2 will be what God has always known I would choose..

Scenario A

0. God already knew I would jump.
1. I go to the edge
2. I choose to jump
3. Therefore God knows I will jump.

Scenario B

0. God already knew I would not jump.
1. I go to the edge
2. I choose not to jump
3. Therefore God knows I will not jump.

So if scenario A is true, then B is not an option. Likewise, if scenario B is true then A isn't an option either. Otherwise, God would be wrong.

That is why it is fixed.

Both scenario A and scenario B are options. A2 and B2 are both choices I am free to make.

God would not be wrong whether I chose A2 or B2, because if I chose A2 then God would have known I would choose A2, but if I had chosen B2, God would have known I would choose B2.

Nothing is fixed until the moment I jump.

I think you confuse yourself because you have knowledge of the event.

Try to look at it like this:

0. God knows that you will do a certain thing.
1. (You don't know what event is going to happen)
2. (You don't know what you will do)
3. God knew you would do what you did.

You don't have any knowledge of what it is God knows you will do. Therefore the moment you happen to experience this event, you will do what God knows you will, even if he is not the one that is the direct cause of it.

You are correct right up until this point. I will do what God knows I will do, whether it is A2 or B2 in the above-noted scenarios..

So when you find yourself in whatever this event is, you think you have the ability to freely choose, but this was already determined long before because God knew what you would do.

You said: you will do what God knows you will, even if he is not the one that is the direct cause of it.
Now you are saying: this was already determined long before because God knew what you would do.

So you are saying that it was determined before I chose A2 or B2 which one I would choose because God knew I would choose A2 or B2.
If it was determined what I would do because God knew what I would do that would mean that God's knowledge was the cause of what I did, but you still cannot explain why I could not have made either choice, A1 or B2.

How did God's knowledge of what I will do determine what I will do if God is not the cause of what I do?
Why was it determined that I would jump or not jump before I made my choice to jump or not jump?

Since God can't be wrong, what you choose to do is merely an illusion of free will.

You wouldn't do it because you chose to, you would think you did. But you can't change what God knows and since he knows it before you, you have no choice.

It is illogical to say we have no free will if God knows what we will do.
God cannot be wrong, so whatever I choose to do is what God knew I would choose to do.

What God knows is determined by what I will choose.
If I chose X, God would have known I would choose X.
If I chose Y, God would have known I would choose Y.

Essentially what you are arguing, is that everything you do throughout your whole life you have chosen through free will before you were born, kind of like you having filled out a spreadsheet and then forgotten it, but God knows it. And what you are basically doing is simply living according to the spreadsheet and all these choices you made. That would allow you to have free will, while God has perfect foreknowledge or at least the illusion of it.

Essentially what I am arguing is that everything I do throughout my whole life I have chosen through free will, kind of like me filling out a spreadsheet as I go through life. God knows what is on that spreadsheet before I fill it out. This allows me to have free will, while God has perfect foreknowledge of what I will choose.

 

[Nimos]

You said: you will do what God knows you will, even if he is not the one that is the direct cause of it.
Now you are saying: this was already determined long before because God knew what you would do.

So you are saying that it was determined before I chose A2 or B2 which one I would choose because God knew I would choose A2 or B2.
If it was determined what I would do because God knew what I would do that would mean that God's knowledge was the cause of what I did, but you still cannot explain why I could not have made either choice, A1 or B2.

How did God's knowledge of what I will do determine what I will do if God is not the cause of what I do?
Why was it determined that I would jump or not jump before I made my choice to jump or not jump?

God might not be the direct cause of it (even though you could make that argument, but let's ignore that for now.)

The way you could look at it is somewhat similar to me knowing that you are eventually going to die, yet I'm not the cause of it. Equally, God also knows this, but furthermore, he knows exactly how it will happen, yet he might not be the cause of it. It is merely a matter of the amount of knowledge/details each of us has in this setup. I have little knowledge and God has all the knowledge.

But let's try an example:

So in this scenario, you are God and you are having a chat with me about a person called Bob who is considering jumping off the edge and killing himself in 7 days.

Me: Hello God, I have a question about Bob.
You: Hello, what would you like to know?
Me: Is Bob going to jump off the edge in 7 days?
1. You: <What would you answer to this question?>

2. When the 7 days are up, will the choice Bob makes be 50/50?

Try to answer those two questions?

It is illogical to say we have no free will if God knows what we will do.
God cannot be wrong, so whatever I choose to do is what God knew I would choose to do.

What God knows is determined by what I will choose.
If I chose X, God would have known I would choose X.
If I chose Y, God would have known I would choose Y.

But as above, God knows it before you are ever in a position to make a choice. How can Bob choose to do anything other than what God told me he would do? God can't lie.

 

[Trailblazer]

God might not be the direct cause of it (even though you could make that argument, but let's ignore that for now.)

The way you could look at it is somewhat similar to me knowing that you are eventually going to die, yet I'm not the cause of it. Equally, God also knows this, but furthermore, he knows exactly how it will happen, yet he might not be the cause of it. It is merely a matter of the amount of knowledge/details each of us has in this setup. I have little knowledge and God has all the knowledge.

As I have been saying all along, I will die in exactly the same way that God knows I will die because God knows how I will die and God cannot be wrong, but the cause of death could be by suicide or from cancer or from natural old age. God knows what the cause of my death will be because God is all-knowing, but God does not determine the cause of my death. God does not cause me to kill myself and God does not cause my cancer.

This is probably not a good example because how and why we die is not a choice. We might choose suicide but we do not choose to get cancer or die of old age, those happen to us.

But let's try an example:

So in this scenario, you are God and you are having a chat with me about a person called Bob who is considering jumping off the edge and killing himself in 7 days.

Me: Hello God, I have a question about Bob.
You: Hello, what would you like to know?
Me: Is Bob going to jump off the edge in 7 days?
1. You: <What would you answer to this question?>

2. When the 7 days are up, will the choice Bob makes be 50/50?

Try to answer those two questions?

Since I do not see that you have me (God) answering that question yes or no then the choice Bob makes would be 50/50.
Bob might jump or Bob might not jump.

But as above, God knows it before you are ever in a position to make a choice. How can Bob choose to do anything other than what God told me he would do? God can't lie.

God knows what choice Bob will make before Bob is ever in a position to make a choice.

If God had told you what Bob would do, Bob will not choose to do anything other than what God told you he would do.


Bob will choose to jump or not jump,
Before Bob jumped or didn't jump, Bob had a choice to jump or not jump.

If Bob had chosen to jump that would have been what God knew Bob would do.
If Bob had chosen not to jump that would have been what God knew Bob would do.

 

[Nimos]

God knows what choice Bob will make before Bob is ever in a position to make a choice.

If God had told you what Bob would do, Bob will not choose to do anything other than what God told you he would do.


Bob will choose to jump or not jump,
Before Bob jumped or didn't jump, Bob had a choice to jump or not jump.

If Bob had chosen to jump that would have been what God knew Bob would do.
If Bob had chosen not to jump that would have been what God knew Bob would do.

But in that case, Bob made the choice before even experiencing the event. Not only that, everything has to play out accordingly so Bob can even end up in a position where the event is still relevant.

This means that nothing can happen to Bob in those 7 days that will prevent him from being in that position. So how do you make sure, that nothing interferes with Bob in those 7 days?

Maybe Bob gets run over? Not possible
Maybe he meets a new person and becomes happy again? Not possible

Because Bob has to be at the point where the event takes place. How do you make sure that things play out in that exact way, without someone having to give up free will? or that the Universe doesn't align to a certain path?

 

[Trailblazer]

But in that case, Bob made the choice before even experiencing the event. Not only that, everything has to play out accordingly so Bob can even end up in a position where the event is still relevant.

This means that nothing can happen to Bob in those 7 days that will prevent him from being in that position. So how do you make sure, that nothing interferes with Bob in those 7 days?

Maybe Bob gets run over? Not possible
Maybe he meets a new person and becomes happy again? Not possible

Because Bob has to be at the point where the event takes place. How do you make sure that things play out in that exact way, without someone having to give up free will? or that the Universe doesn't align to a certain path?

What I said about Bob choosing to jump or not jump is based upon the assumption that Bob got to the point where he was standing on that ledge trying to decide whether to jump or not jump. If anything happened to Bob in those 7 days that prevented him from being in that position on the ledge, (e.g., he was sent to the hospital or got thrown in jail), then Bob would not be faced with that decision to jump or not jump. If that was the case then God would have known it would be the case, so a new scenario would unfold for Bob and Bob's life would take another path.

Things like this happen all the time. People plan for the future but then something happens that interferes with their plans. For example, my counselor counsels mostly older people and she told me about a client who had big plans for retirement and then her husband got very sick and could not travel. In my opinion, this is why it is not good to plan and count on those plans working out. I planned for a different career but my career changes was contingent upon my husband getting a better job which he refused to do, so I never changes careers. That lead me to be angry at him and it caused a rift in our marriage which took it along a different path. This is the only thing I ever panned in my life and had high hopes for, leading to years of sadness over what I had lost. I will never make plans again. Whatever happens happens and I trust God to guide me along the right path.

 

[Nimos]

What I said about Bob choosing to jump or not jump is based upon the assumption that Bob got to the point where he was standing on that ledge trying to decide whether to jump or not jump. If anything happened to Bob in those 7 days that prevented him from being in that position on the ledge, (e.g., he was sent to the hospital or got thrown in jail), then Bob would not be faced with that decision to jump or not jump. If that was the case then God would have known it would be the case, so a new scenario would unfold for Bob and Bob's life would take another path.

Things like this happen all the time. People plan for the future but then something happens that interferes with their plans. For example, my counselor counsels mostly older people and she told me about a client who had big plans for retirement and then her husband got very sick and could not travel. In my opinion, this is why it is not good to plan and count on those plans working out. I planned for a different career but my career changes was contingent upon my husband getting a better job which he refused to do, so I never changes careers. That lead me to be angry at him and it caused a rift in our marriage which took it along a different path. This is the only thing I ever panned in my life and had high hopes for, leading to years of sadness over what I had lost. I will never make plans again. Whatever happens happens and I trust God to guide me along the right path.

But there is no assumption to be made, God has the correct answer and knows what Bob will do.

Let's say that God told me that Bob was going to jump. Could I do anything to make God a liar, like convincing Bob to not jump?

I think where you get things mixed up, is because you look at it based upon what Bob could do, rather than what he actually does, and that God knows he will do.

Keep in mind, that I asked God what Bob will do 7 days before he does it. The only way Bob is not going to jump is if God either doesn't know or he is lying.

Bob has to do not only what God knows he will do, but also what God told me.

 

[Trailblazer]

But there is no assumption to be made, God has the correct answer and knows what Bob will do.

Let's say that God told me that Bob was going to jump. Could I do anything to make God a liar, like convincing Bob to not jump?

If God told you Bob would jump that means that God knows that God will jump, and if God is all-knowing, cannot be wrong, and never lies, that means that Bob will jump and there is nothing you can do to convince Bob not to jump.

I think where you get things mixed up, is because you look at it based upon what Bob could do, rather than what he actually does, and that God knows he will do.

Keep in mind, that I asked God what Bob will do 7 days before he does it. The only way Bob is not going to jump is if God either doesn't know or he is lying.

Bob has to do not only what God knows he will do, but also what God told me.

Yes, this is based upon what Bob could have done before Bob does what Bob does, which is what God knows Bob will do.

I never claimed that Bob will not do what God knows Bob will do. I have always said that Bob will do what God knows Bob will do.

All I have ever said is that before Bob did what God knows Bob will do, Bob could have chosen to do something else, in which case that something else will be what God knows Bob will do.

 

[Nimos]

All I have ever said is that before Bob did what God knows Bob will do, Bob could have chosen to do something else, in which case that something else will be what God knows Bob will do.

I know, but my point is that Bob could not have chosen to do anything else. Because God knows what Bob is going to do.

Look at it like this:

1. God knows Bob will jump in 7 days.

- 7 day passes -

2. Bob is now standing at the edge and it is at this point he has to make the "choice" about whether he should jump or not. But given that God already knows that he is going to jump, Bob is merely experiencing an illusion of choice. Because no matter how long or how much Bob thinks about it he IS going to jump. Otherwise, God would be wrong and he would have told me a lie.

The big issue here is when God tells me what Bob is going to do in which case he doesn't have a choice anymore, because what God knows and now me as well, is that Bob has to jump. And this gets completely fixed because God can't be wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know, but my point is that Bob could not have chosen to do anything else. Because God knows what Bob is going to do.

The thing is that YOU do not know what God knows that Bob is going to do. Only God knows what Bob is going to do.

Look at it like this:

1. God knows Bob will jump in 7 days.

- 7 day passes -

2. Bob is now standing at the edge and it is at this point he has to make the "choice" about whether he should jump or not. But given that God already knows that he is going to jump, Bob is merely experiencing an illusion of choice. Because no matter how long or how much Bob thinks about it he IS going to jump. Otherwise, God would be wrong and he would have told me a lie.

But you do not know what God knows so you do not know that God knows Bob will jump in 7 days.
God might know that (A) Bob is going to jump in 7 days or God might know that (B) Bob is not going to jump in 7 days.
Whichever one God knows, A or B, is what Bob will choose to do in 7 days.

The big issue here is when God tells me what Bob is going to do in which case he doesn't have a choice anymore, because what God knows and now me as well, is that Bob has to jump. And this gets completely fixed because God can't be wrong.

The big issue here is that God does not talk to humans so God did not tell you what Bob is going to do.

Nothing is fixed except what God knows in His Own Mind, since God has always had foreknowledge of what Bob would do.

Bob had a choice to jump or not jump.

-- Bob will jump if that is what God has always known Bob would do, but God will not jump because God knows Bob will jump, Bob wil jump because Bob chose to jump.

-- Bob will not jump if that is what God has always known Bob would do, but Bob will not not jump because God knows Bob will not jump, Bob will not jump because Bob chose not to jump.

The cause of Bob jumping or not jumping was Bob, who used his free will to choose.

 

[Nimos]

But you do not know what God knows so you do not know that God knows Bob will jump in 7 days.
God might know that (A) Bob is going to jump in 7 days or God might know that (B) Bob is not going to jump in 7 days.
Whichever one God knows, A or B, is what Bob will choose to do in 7 days.

It doesn't really matter whether he tells me or not, I simply used it to illustrate the problem.

God might not know whether Bob will jump or not. He knows exactly whether he will do one or the other. That is what my example illustrates.

The big issue here is that God does not talk to humans so God did not tell you what Bob is going to do.

But God communicate with the messengers right? and besides that God could do it if he wanted to. It doesn't change anything. The mere fact, that I or anyone could be told what Bob will do, will remove his choice.

Whether God chooses not to tell anyone for whatever reason doesn't change it, because in theory he could do it if he wanted to and the issue would be the same.

Bob will jump if that is what God has always known Bob would do, but God will not jump because God knows Bob will jump, Bob wil jump because Bob chose to jump.

I don't know how to explain it any other way, I have said many times that it isn't necessarily because God knows that he will do it. God could not be the cause, doesn't change anything. That is also why I told you in earlier posts, that it doesn't even have to be God that knows it. It could be anyone and it would still be the same if that person/animal can't be wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

God might not know whether Bob will jump or not. He knows exactly whether he will do one or the other. That is what my example illustrates.

If God knows exactly whether Bob will do one or the other God would have to know whether Bob will jump or not.

But God communicate with the messengers right? and besides that God could do it if he wanted to. It doesn't change anything. The mere fact, that I or anyone could be told what Bob will do, will remove his choice.

If you or anyone was told what Bob will do, how would that remove Bob's choice?

It would only mean that Bob will do what God told you or anyone else that Bob would do.
It would not prevent Bob from having a choice to do it or not, before Bob made the choice..
Once Bob made the choice that choice would align perfectly with what God knew Bob would choose.

Whether God chooses not to tell anyone for whatever reason doesn't change it, because in theory he could do it if he wanted to and the issue would be the same.

That is true, but there really isn't an issue.

I don't know how to explain it any other way, I have said many times that it isn't necessarily because God knows that he will do it. God could not be the cause, doesn't change anything. That is also why I told you in earlier posts, that it doesn't even have to be God that knows it. It could be anyone and it would still be the same if that person/animal can't be wrong.

If it is not because God (or whoever else) knows it, what is the cause of what Bob does?
I believe that cause is this: knowledge ---> volition ---> action.

Where:
knowledge = what Bob is thinking (e.g., my life is so bad, I might as well jump off of this ledge)
volition = Bob has the will to jump (the power to choose)
action = Bob jumps off the ledge

Again, we both know that Bob will do what God knows Bob will do because God cannot be wrong, but how does that limit Bob's power to choose before Bob does what God knows Bob will do?