Trailblazer
Veteran Member
In short, noblesse oblige.
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In short, noblesse oblige.
And we forget to be humble.But assuming that a God made the world, and so things like earthquakes and volcanoes would happen, and that God knew that it would kill people, then he's responsible... and he was okay with it.
What methodology would confirm that what appeared was a god?I think one could make the argument that it would proof God, because you could simply pray for God to reveal himself/herself in their true form. Again the prayers would always come true in this thought experiment
I like thunderstorms but I am scared of lightening since I have been struck twice, once in a car and once in the house.I know I like a good thunderstorm. I'm sure God loves them.
In this example, the assumption is that prayers work and always come true. So logically they can never be wrong regardless of what you ask. So your prayers could confirm that there is a God answering them.What methodology would confirm that what appeared was a god?
Based on what you wrote it is not an assumption that prayers work. It is an observation where x is prayed for, and then it is confirmed that x happens.In this example, the assumption is that prayers work and always come true. So logically they can never be wrong regardless of what you ask. So your prayers could confirm that there is a God answering them.
It comes from a "joke" between me and Trailblazer.Based on what you wrote it is not an assumption that prayers work. It is an observation where x is prayed for, and then it is confirmed that x happens.
Me: That doesn't surprise me, because if it was "will succeed" then that would prove God, or at least be an extremely strong argument and as an atheist I would welcome thatNote that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”
What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...
Ahh. Inside joke. I will bow outIt comes from a "joke" between me and Trailblazer.
Christians disagree with Christians on a great many issues, so it is no surprise that Christians disagree with other religions on a greater number of issues.
According to my beliefs, God exists somewhere in the spiritual world, which Baha'is refer to as 'the reams above' and what Christians refer to as Heaven.God might experience time differently than humans, but he wouldn't be beyond it. Because time only makes sense if it is in relation to something else. Think about when you go to sleep, I think most people will agree, that the moment you fall asleep and wake up the next morning, it feels like a few seconds past, maybe even less. You have no sensation of time passing because you have nothing to relate it to. But that doesn't mean that time isn't passing, and a person observing you would experience the time normally. So even if you don't sense it, you still have to apply the rules of time. And the same would be the case for God, an event can't happen before a given period of time has passed.
I understand what you are saying and I agree. Whatever happens has to be what God knows will happen if God is all-knowing.I think you misunderstood what I meant. We are talking in relationship to God, if God knows it, at the beginning of time that you will be hit by the car at that exact moment, then it can't be altered later on. That would be contradictory to God knowing it at the beginning because then he would obviously know that you wouldn't be hit. It doesn't make sense to say that he knows that you would be hit and not hit at the same time, you don't have to be God to be able to do that, I can do it as well .
If will be a four if God knew it was going to be a four, but if it had been a two or a three instead, God would have e known it would be a two or a three.That is what I meant. Compare it to that of rolling a dice, either it is a four or it is not a four. If God knows it is a four, then it will be a four, otherwise he would know it would be a two or three or whatever.
You are correct, God knew at the beginning of time (as we measure time on earth).And that is what I meant with the question, at which point does God know whether it will be a four or not? And since the claim is that he is all-knowing then he must know it at the beginning of time and therefore the dice can't be anything other than that. And the same applies to you getting hit by the car, there are not several events deciding this. You simply combine it all into that of rolling a four on the dice, so you riding the bike, the man not paying attention, driving the car etc. etc. There is no difference between that and a dice roll or that of simply looking at it as a movie playing out.
I don't know what you mean by 'play out in a deterministic way.' If God's knowledge does not cause anything to happen, then how would God's knowledge determine what happens?That God knows it isn't what causes it, which we agree on. But things have to play out in a deterministic way if we are going to claim that God knows everything.
Try to use the dice example, if God knows that it will be a four, can it be any other result? and if so, how would that be possible, without God being wrong? Again, there is no difference between it being a dice roll or that of a human action, when talking about God being all-knowing. Adding humans to it does nothing besides removing the focus and adding confusion to the argument.
When Pres. Johnson was a Senator he said whoever has the ultimate position has the ultimate power.The following is a post from an atheist I was chatting with on another forum. I told him I would post it here to get other opinions.
Nothing you said addresses that with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. The only argument you could make is that God is either not all powerful, not all knowing, or not perfectly good. Which is it? The badly written, badly edited, contradictory, book Christians follow makes no sense to anyone who's read it that can think. Heck you don't even have anything written about your God from the people who met him. So use logic, you can't have infinite power and not be responsible for everything.
responsibility
something that it is your job or duty to deal with....................................................................
Some ancient myths had Gods that needed things sacrificed to them... sometimes humans. A sacrifice could bring rain and good weather and prevent storms and other bad things from happening. Even the God in the Bible sent some bad things when he wasn't happy with people.And we forget to be humble.
All of creation was deemed by God as good. Why do we assume humans are to have special protection? There are reasons, morals of the stories, lessons to be learned from the myths of the ancients. Adam and Eve were kicked out of their protection status. Just another piece of the whole. I know I like a good thunderstorm. I'm sure God loves them. They are His as much as we are.
Or was another part of the creation just expressing its needs/presence? Humans are very egotistical even in their presumed place in God's creation. The Book of Genesis says God gave mankind dominion over every living thing while in Paradise, but mankind threw that away along with its innocence.Some ancient myths had Gods that needed things sacrificed to them... sometimes humans. A sacrifice could bring rain and good weather and prevent storms and other bads things from happening. Even the God in the Bible sent some bad things when he wasn't happy with people.
I agree that God's knowledge isn't necessarily what determines it, yet I think you could make the argument that it is, given he is the creator and is aware of his creation, and if he didn't want it to be a two, then he could simply change it and no one would know, except him.God does not have to wait until we roll the dice to find out what is going to happen.
However, God's knowledge of events does not determine what those events will be.
It has not been determined whether it will be a two or three or four until we roll the dice.
If it ends up being a two, that will be what God has always known it would be....
If it ends up being a three , that will be what God has always known it would be....
If it ends up being a four , that will be what God has always known it would be....
Again, this statement confirms what I'm saying, if God knows what these events will be, that is what they will be. Our illusion of choice is irrelevant in this setup, the only thing that matters is God's knowledge which can't be wrong, so there can't be several outcomes to an event.These events have not happened to us yet since we exist in linear time, but God knows what these events will be before they happen to us on earth.
Because you can't separate the two, they rely on each other. Again, using the movie example.I don't know what you mean by 'play out in a deterministic way.' If God's knowledge does not cause anything to happen, then how would God's knowledge determine what happens?
I believe that humans determine what happens in this world by acts of free will, choosing to do what they do, but as I said before, I believe in a deterministic kind of free will, since what we choose is determined by many factors.
Of course since God is all-powerful God could determine the course of events, including how they end, but God normally doesn't do that.I agree that God's knowledge isn't necessarily what determines it, yet I think you could make the argument that it is, given he is the creator and is aware of his creation, and if he didn't want it to be a two, then he could simply change it and no one would know, except him.
In playing a game if it turned out to be a one the person might say: "See, I knew it was going to be a one!!!", if they had 'hoped' it would be a one before it turned out to be a one. If it ended up being a two they would say: "Gee, I hoped it was going to be a one!!!"But you still have to apply logical rules.
Therefore it doesn't make sense to say "If it ends up being two...", that is looking at it backwards, which doesn't make sense. It is similar to when you play a game, and someone says "I knew it was going to be a one!!!", obviously we understand the meaning of what they are saying, but we would never logically conclude that the person actually knew it.
And the same must apply to God. If we accept that God knows, then it can only be two, otherwise he didn't know. It has to be deterministic to align with his knowledge.
God knows what these events will be, that is what they will be because God is all-knowing and God's knowledge can't be wrong,Again, this statement confirms what I'm saying, if God knows what these events will be, that is what they will be. Our illusion of choice is irrelevant in this setup, the only thing that matters is God's knowledge which can't be wrong, so there can't be several outcomes to an event.
To repeat what you said:Because you can't separate the two, they rely on each other. Again, using the movie example.
1. The movie is playing and we know that it ends with the actors living happily ever after.
2. You have watched the movie so you know how it will end (You have the knowledge equal to that of God). I'm in the process of watching the movie, so to me it could end in lots of different ways. So I might guess what that might be. Yet, you know that all my guesses are wrong. Yet knowing how the movie ends isn't what causes the ending to be like that, yet, your knowledge has to align with the movie. The same goes for God, he knows how the movie will end and we can even go further and say that he also created the movie,
It does make sense that it could have ended in any number if ways, and however it ended is how God knew it would end.it just doesn't make sense to claim that somehow, the movie could end in all sorts of ways while maintaining that God knows it.
It is a logical issue and what I am presenting is perfectly logical.I understand that you believe in free will, but the rules that have been applied by religion just don't seem to support it with an all-knowing God. Again as I mentioned in earlier posts, it doesn't matter whether it is God, your cat, you or me.
It is a logical issue.
Because it is not a logically sound argument.Why is this so hard for people to understand? It is not just you who cannot understand it.
What caused the movie to end as it does, could be based on many things, and doesn't necessarily have to be a single thing, it could very well be one thing causing another. Not really any different than you kicking a football that then hits a window that then shatters and falls on the street, that then punctures the wheels of a car, that then crashes etc. Just replace all these with atoms or whatever, one thing leads to another, based on whatever sat it in motion, so it could be God driving it, or he might not care about it so whatever plays out is fine by him. This is where the discussion would probably turn into whether God is an intervening one or not.So, what caused the movie to end the way it ended?
You said that God knows how the movie will end and we can even go further and say that God also created the movie,
So are you saying that God creates the events that happen in our lives? That would mean we are God's programmed robots.
No, because that is backwards.It is a logical issue and what I am presenting is perfectly logical.
God's knowledge in no way precludes humans choosing to do what God knows they will choose to do.
If I was standing on the edge of a building and had two choices, (a) jump off or (b) don't jump off I could choose a or b.
If I chose a, that would be what God knew I would choose.
If I chose b, that would be what God knew I would choose.
The following is a post from an atheist I was chatting with on another forum. I told him I would post it here to get other opinions.
Nothing you said addresses that with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. The only argument you could make is that God is either not all powerful, not all knowing, or not perfectly good. Which is it? The badly written, badly edited, contradictory, book Christians follow makes no sense to anyone who's read it that can think. Heck you don't even have anything written about your God from the people who met him. So use logic, you can't have infinite power and not be responsible for everything.
responsibility
something that it is your job or duty to deal with:
responsibility
- It's her responsibility to ensure the project finishes on time.
- She takes her responsibilities as a nurse very seriously.
Nothing ever goes sideways for God.When things go sideways for God, He's got nobody to blame but Himself.
Nothing ever goes sideways for God.