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Why would God's ultimate power come with ultimate responsibility?

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
But assuming that a God made the world, and so things like earthquakes and volcanoes would happen, and that God knew that it would kill people, then he's responsible... and he was okay with it.
And we forget to be humble.

All of creation was deemed by God as good. Why do we assume humans are to have special protection? There are reasons, morals of the stories, lessons to be learned from the myths of the ancients. Adam and Eve were kicked out of their protection status. Just another piece of the whole. I know I like a good thunderstorm. I'm sure God loves them. They are His as much as we are.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I think one could make the argument that it would proof God, because you could simply pray for God to reveal himself/herself in their true form. Again the prayers would always come true in this thought experiment :D
What methodology would confirm that what appeared was a god?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I know I like a good thunderstorm. I'm sure God loves them.
I like thunderstorms but I am scared of lightening since I have been struck twice, once in a car and once in the house.
God sure loves lightening and thunder in TV shows such as Highway to Heaven so why not? :D
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
What methodology would confirm that what appeared was a god?
In this example, the assumption is that prayers work and always come true. So logically they can never be wrong regardless of what you ask. So your prayers could confirm that there is a God answering them.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
In this example, the assumption is that prayers work and always come true. So logically they can never be wrong regardless of what you ask. So your prayers could confirm that there is a God answering them.
Based on what you wrote it is not an assumption that prayers work. It is an observation where x is prayed for, and then it is confirmed that x happens.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Based on what you wrote it is not an assumption that prayers work. It is an observation where x is prayed for, and then it is confirmed that x happens.
It comes from a "joke" between me and Trailblazer.

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”
What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God... ;)
Me: That doesn't surprise me, because if it was "will succeed" then that would prove God, or at least be an extremely strong argument and as an atheist I would welcome that :D

It is based on the assumption that it works or "will succeed". So if you pray for God to reveal his/her true self, then that will succeed. I don't see the difference, between that and "it is confirmed that x happens" and not proving God, if that was what you prayed for?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Christians disagree with Christians on a great many issues, so it is no surprise that Christians disagree with other religions on a greater number of issues.

Yes, Christians are just like other people in this regard.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God might experience time differently than humans, but he wouldn't be beyond it. Because time only makes sense if it is in relation to something else. Think about when you go to sleep, I think most people will agree, that the moment you fall asleep and wake up the next morning, it feels like a few seconds past, maybe even less. You have no sensation of time passing because you have nothing to relate it to. But that doesn't mean that time isn't passing, and a person observing you would experience the time normally. So even if you don't sense it, you still have to apply the rules of time. And the same would be the case for God, an event can't happen before a given period of time has passed.
According to my beliefs, God exists somewhere in the spiritual world, which Baha'is refer to as 'the reams above' and what Christians refer to as Heaven.

Regarding time, there might be some other kind of time in the spiritual world, just not time as it is measured on earth.
The Baha'i belief about the spiritual world is that . . . . . .

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

God does not exist in this world so God does not exist in earthly time, but since God is omnipresent, God can see what is happening on earth the way we see it, in earth time. On this time-based causal earth an event can't happen before a given period of time has passed,. but every event that will ever happen has already been seen in God's mind, since God knows everything that will ever happen, ahead of time so to speak..
I think you misunderstood what I meant. We are talking in relationship to God, if God knows it, at the beginning of time that you will be hit by the car at that exact moment, then it can't be altered later on. That would be contradictory to God knowing it at the beginning because then he would obviously know that you wouldn't be hit. It doesn't make sense to say that he knows that you would be hit and not hit at the same time, you don't have to be God to be able to do that, I can do it as well :).
I understand what you are saying and I agree. Whatever happens has to be what God knows will happen if God is all-knowing.
So if God knew that l would be hit by the car at that exact moment, then that is what would happen, and it could not be any different and still maintain God's omniscience.

The problem that we are having is the time issue. There is no 'later on' in the mind of God, since God knows everything simultaneously.
That is what I meant. Compare it to that of rolling a dice, either it is a four or it is not a four. If God knows it is a four, then it will be a four, otherwise he would know it would be a two or three or whatever.
If will be a four if God knew it was going to be a four, but if it had been a two or a three instead, God would have e known it would be a two or a three.
And that is what I meant with the question, at which point does God know whether it will be a four or not? And since the claim is that he is all-knowing then he must know it at the beginning of time and therefore the dice can't be anything other than that. And the same applies to you getting hit by the car, there are not several events deciding this. You simply combine it all into that of rolling a four on the dice, so you riding the bike, the man not paying attention, driving the car etc. etc. There is no difference between that and a dice roll or that of simply looking at it as a movie playing out.
You are correct, God knew at the beginning of time (as we measure time on earth).
God has always known whether it will be a two or a three or a four, because God is all-knowing.
God does not have to wait until we roll the dice to find out what is going to happen.

However, God's knowledge of events does not determine what those events will be.
It has not been determined whether it will be a two or three or four until we roll the dice.

If it ends up being a two, that will be what God has always known it would be....
If it ends up being a three , that will be what God has always known it would be....
If it ends up being a four , that will be what God has always known it would be....

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Omniscient means all-knowing, so that means that God knows everything.

God has perfect foreknowledge, so everything that will ever happen to each and every person in their lives is written on the Tablet of Fate.

These events have not happened to us yet since we exist in linear time, but God knows what these events will be before they happen to us on earth.

The future has not occurred yet in this world, a world that is contingent upon time, but in the spiritual realm where God exists, there is no such thing as linear time. Rather, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable and as such it is possible to see everything simultaneously.

God, being omniscient, knows and foresees everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and what will happen in the future on earth simultaneously, not linearly, but humans exist in linear time so we see things linearly.

Humans have free will and the ability to choose what we will do throughout our lives, over the course of time. Whatever we end up doing will be what God knew we would do, because God is all-knowing.
That God knows it isn't what causes it, which we agree on. But things have to play out in a deterministic way if we are going to claim that God knows everything.

Try to use the dice example, if God knows that it will be a four, can it be any other result? and if so, how would that be possible, without God being wrong? Again, there is no difference between it being a dice roll or that of a human action, when talking about God being all-knowing. Adding humans to it does nothing besides removing the focus and adding confusion to the argument.
I don't know what you mean by 'play out in a deterministic way.' If God's knowledge does not cause anything to happen, then how would God's knowledge determine what happens?

I believe that humans determine what happens in this world by acts of free will, choosing to do what they do, but as I said before, I believe in a deterministic kind of free will, since what we choose is determined by many factors.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The following is a post from an atheist I was chatting with on another forum. I told him I would post it here to get other opinions.
Nothing you said addresses that with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. The only argument you could make is that God is either not all powerful, not all knowing, or not perfectly good. Which is it? The badly written, badly edited, contradictory, book Christians follow makes no sense to anyone who's read it that can think. Heck you don't even have anything written about your God from the people who met him. So use logic, you can't have infinite power and not be responsible for everything.
responsibility
something that it is your job or duty to deal with....................................................................
When Pres. Johnson was a Senator he said whoever has the ultimate position has the ultimate power.
( that I think was in reference to the space race. Who controls outer space controls earth )
In the Bible God has the Ultimate Position (aka Heaven) and the Ultimate Power as Creator of Earth - Rev. 4:11
Because Adam chose to do wrong, God acted ' responsible ' for the first prophecy found at Genesis 3:15
God would send a promised 'seed' (Messiah) to undo the damage Satan and Adam caused humanity
Jesus will be ' responsible ' for getting rid of the wicked on Earth - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
And we forget to be humble.

All of creation was deemed by God as good. Why do we assume humans are to have special protection? There are reasons, morals of the stories, lessons to be learned from the myths of the ancients. Adam and Eve were kicked out of their protection status. Just another piece of the whole. I know I like a good thunderstorm. I'm sure God loves them. They are His as much as we are.
Some ancient myths had Gods that needed things sacrificed to them... sometimes humans. A sacrifice could bring rain and good weather and prevent storms and other bad things from happening. Even the God in the Bible sent some bad things when he wasn't happy with people.
 
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Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Some ancient myths had Gods that needed things sacrificed to them... sometimes humans. A sacrifice could bring rain and good weather and prevent storms and other bads things from happening. Even the God in the Bible sent some bad things when he wasn't happy with people.
Or was another part of the creation just expressing its needs/presence? Humans are very egotistical even in their presumed place in God's creation. The Book of Genesis says God gave mankind dominion over every living thing while in Paradise, but mankind threw that away along with its innocence.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
God does not have to wait until we roll the dice to find out what is going to happen.

However, God's knowledge of events does not determine what those events will be.
It has not been determined whether it will be a two or three or four until we roll the dice.

If it ends up being a two, that will be what God has always known it would be....
If it ends up being a three , that will be what God has always known it would be....
If it ends up being a four , that will be what God has always known it would be....
I agree that God's knowledge isn't necessarily what determines it, yet I think you could make the argument that it is, given he is the creator and is aware of his creation, and if he didn't want it to be a two, then he could simply change it and no one would know, except him.

But you still have to apply logical rules.

Therefore it doesn't make sense to say "If it ends up being two...", that is looking at it backwards, which doesn't make sense. It is similar to when you play a game, and someone says "I knew it was going to be a one!!!", obviously we understand the meaning of what they are saying, but we would never logically conclude that the person actually knew it.

And the same must apply to God. If we accept that God knows, then it can only be two, otherwise he didn't know. It has to be deterministic to align with his knowledge.

These events have not happened to us yet since we exist in linear time, but God knows what these events will be before they happen to us on earth.
Again, this statement confirms what I'm saying, if God knows what these events will be, that is what they will be. Our illusion of choice is irrelevant in this setup, the only thing that matters is God's knowledge which can't be wrong, so there can't be several outcomes to an event.

I don't know what you mean by 'play out in a deterministic way.' If God's knowledge does not cause anything to happen, then how would God's knowledge determine what happens?

I believe that humans determine what happens in this world by acts of free will, choosing to do what they do, but as I said before, I believe in a deterministic kind of free will, since what we choose is determined by many factors.
Because you can't separate the two, they rely on each other. Again, using the movie example.

1. The movie is playing and we know that it ends with the actors living happily ever after.
2. You have watched the movie so you know how it will end (You have the knowledge equal to that of God). I'm in the process of watching the movie, so to me it could end in lots of different ways. So I might guess what that might be. Yet, you know that all my guesses are wrong. Yet knowing how the movie ends isn't what causes the ending to be like that, yet, your knowledge has to align with the movie. The same goes for God, he knows how the movie will end and we can even go further and say that he also created the movie, it just doesn't make sense to claim that somehow, the movie could end in all sorts of ways while maintaining that God knows it.

When God pressed play on the movie, he would have no clue how it would end, if anything was possible. It falls in the same category as saying that God could make a squared circle. Either it is a circle or it isn't.

I understand that you believe in free will, but the rules that have been applied by religion just don't seem to support it with an all-knowing God. Again as I mentioned in earlier posts, it doesn't matter whether it is God, your cat, you or me.

It is a logical issue.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But God is Not all knowing because notice at Revelation 7:9 the great crowd of people are an unknown number.
This is because we choose if we want to be a figurative 'sheep' or 'goat' - Matthew 25:31-34,37
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I agree that God's knowledge isn't necessarily what determines it, yet I think you could make the argument that it is, given he is the creator and is aware of his creation, and if he didn't want it to be a two, then he could simply change it and no one would know, except him.
Of course since God is all-powerful God could determine the course of events, including how they end, but God normally doesn't do that.
Rather, God allows events to unfold over time and allows humans to choose and acting on their choices.
But you still have to apply logical rules.

Therefore it doesn't make sense to say "If it ends up being two...", that is looking at it backwards, which doesn't make sense. It is similar to when you play a game, and someone says "I knew it was going to be a one!!!", obviously we understand the meaning of what they are saying, but we would never logically conclude that the person actually knew it.

And the same must apply to God. If we accept that God knows, then it can only be two, otherwise he didn't know. It has to be deterministic to align with his knowledge.
In playing a game if it turned out to be a one the person might say: "See, I knew it was going to be a one!!!", if they had 'hoped' it would be a one before it turned out to be a one. If it ended up being a two they would say: "Gee, I hoped it was going to be a one!!!"

The same rules do not apply to God as apply to humans because God is all-knowing whereas humans are not.
God does not have to hope or guess. God has always known whether it would be a one or a two because God has perfect foreknowledge.
Again, this statement confirms what I'm saying, if God knows what these events will be, that is what they will be. Our illusion of choice is irrelevant in this setup, the only thing that matters is God's knowledge which can't be wrong, so there can't be several outcomes to an event.
God knows what these events will be, that is what they will be because God is all-knowing and God's knowledge can't be wrong,

But God's knowledge of what the events will be does not mean we have no choice. We will do what God knows we will do, not because God knows what we will do, but because we choose to do it.

There is no illusion of choice.
God knows what choice we will make.
Whatever we choose to do is what God has always known we would choose to do.
Because you can't separate the two, they rely on each other. Again, using the movie example.

1. The movie is playing and we know that it ends with the actors living happily ever after.
2. You have watched the movie so you know how it will end (You have the knowledge equal to that of God). I'm in the process of watching the movie, so to me it could end in lots of different ways. So I might guess what that might be. Yet, you know that all my guesses are wrong. Yet knowing how the movie ends isn't what causes the ending to be like that, yet, your knowledge has to align with the movie. The same goes for God, he knows how the movie will end and we can even go further and say that he also created the movie,
To repeat what you said:

1. God's knowledge has to align with the movie ending because God knows how the movie will end.
2. God's knowledge of how the movie ends isn't what causes the ending to be like that.


So, what caused the movie to end the way it ended?

You said that God knows how the movie will end and we can even go further and say that God also created the movie,
So are you saying that God creates the events that happen in our lives? That would mean we are God's programmed robots.
it just doesn't make sense to claim that somehow, the movie could end in all sorts of ways while maintaining that God knows it.
It does make sense that it could have ended in any number if ways, and however it ended is how God knew it would end.
Why is this so hard for people to understand? It is not just you who cannot understand it.
I understand that you believe in free will, but the rules that have been applied by religion just don't seem to support it with an all-knowing God. Again as I mentioned in earlier posts, it doesn't matter whether it is God, your cat, you or me.

It is a logical issue.
It is a logical issue and what I am presenting is perfectly logical.
God's knowledge in no way precludes humans choosing to do what God knows they will choose to do.

If I was standing on the edge of a building and had two choices, (a) jump off or (b) don't jump off I could choose a or b.
If I chose a, that would be what God knew I would choose.
If I chose b, that would be what God knew I would choose.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Why is this so hard for people to understand? It is not just you who cannot understand it.
Because it is not a logically sound argument. :)

So, what caused the movie to end the way it ended?

You said that God knows how the movie will end and we can even go further and say that God also created the movie,
So are you saying that God creates the events that happen in our lives? That would mean we are God's programmed robots.
What caused the movie to end as it does, could be based on many things, and doesn't necessarily have to be a single thing, it could very well be one thing causing another. Not really any different than you kicking a football that then hits a window that then shatters and falls on the street, that then punctures the wheels of a car, that then crashes etc. Just replace all these with atoms or whatever, one thing leads to another, based on whatever sat it in motion, so it could be God driving it, or he might not care about it so whatever plays out is fine by him. This is where the discussion would probably turn into whether God is an intervening one or not.

The point is, that if you use the string of events as I wrote above and God knew all this beforehand, then this string of events has to play out exactly as it did. You could not choose to not kick the ball, the ball had no other option than breaking the window etc.

So yes, I don't see how the Universe with an all-knowing being like God, could be anything other than deterministic and in that case, we would be "robots" without free will, merely an illusion that we have it.

It is a logical issue and what I am presenting is perfectly logical.
God's knowledge in no way precludes humans choosing to do what God knows they will choose to do.

If I was standing on the edge of a building and had two choices, (a) jump off or (b) don't jump off I could choose a or b.
If I chose a, that would be what God knew I would choose.
If I chose b, that would be what God knew I would choose.
No, because that is backwards.

What you are doing is making the choice and then claiming that God would know it. But that doesn't work. Because God already knows whether you will jump or not before you do. If we go with what you are saying, you are basically claiming that your choice is what drives God's knowledge in which case the obvious conclusion would be that God doesn't really know anything.

The reason is that there are only 2 contradictive options, either you jump or you don't, one prevents the other from being true.

To really flesh it out and put it on a timeline, from the beginning when God knows:
1. God knows that you will jump
2. You go to the edge of the building.
3. At this point you should jump because that is what God knows, yet following what you say, you choose to not jump.
4. Either we have to say that God was wrong, which is not possible, so now we just change what God knew at the beginning instead. (1) God knows that you won't jump but that doesn't make sense, if God knew you wouldn't jump, (1) would have been that, to begin with. Therefore God didn't know and you simply decided what God knew in step 3.

You seem to ignore time in your logic, and that God just magically always had the correct answer based on your choice, but that is not the claim, the claim is that God is all-knowing, and therefore you can't change what he knows without him not being all-knowing.

Therefore whatever God knows, even if he isn't the cause of it, is how it will turn out. And again, since he knows before you, you can't change what he knows.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
The following is a post from an atheist I was chatting with on another forum. I told him I would post it here to get other opinions.

Nothing you said addresses that with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. The only argument you could make is that God is either not all powerful, not all knowing, or not perfectly good. Which is it? The badly written, badly edited, contradictory, book Christians follow makes no sense to anyone who's read it that can think. Heck you don't even have anything written about your God from the people who met him. So use logic, you can't have infinite power and not be responsible for everything.

responsibility
something that it is your job or duty to deal with:
responsibility

When things go sideways for God, He's got nobody to blame but Himself.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
Nothing ever goes sideways for God.

Oh, no?

God creates Eden and puts his new favorite pet in it to tend the garden. His pet gets lonely, so God creates the entire animal kingdom in an effort to find a suitable companion - no dice, so God removes a rib instead.

Said companion ruins the paradise and creates a rift between God and His creation - by taking bad advice from a talking reptile.

I'd say at this point, things are pretty sideways. Humanity has been separated from God, and needs "atonement,"or, if you prefer, "at-one-ment."

So... in an attempt to fix things, God decides to start over; rid His creation of all evil by drowning it, save for one righteous family - Noah, his wife, three sons, and their wives.

Does it work? Of course not. No sooner does Noah ride out the storm then he gets utterly blitzed on wine, and one of his sons breaks taboos by witnessing his old man in his drunken nakedness.

Needless to say, humanity is still separated from God; the problem of evil still exists, so things are still looking sideways.

New Plan! Pick a righteous man (Abraham), test his faith by asking him to sacrifice one of his sons, and upon passing the test (stopping at the crucial moment), elevate him as a leader of a new nation which will serve as an example - morally, politically, and militarily - of His power to the rest of the world... but only so long as they follow His laws to the letter - Every. Last. One.

Well, nations rise... and they fall... and on occasion, they get their posteriors handed to them by larger, more powerful nations - Israel got it twice: First by the Babylonians, then by the Romans. Which of the 613 Commandments did they not follow? Kind of a moot point now...

...because things went thoroughly sideways.

So, around 4 BC, He goes with Plan D (or is it E? Hard to keep track) by sending His Son to die as a sacrifice for all the sins of the world.

Did it work? Hard to say; the world looks at least as dysfunctional and sideways as it ever was...

Although personally, I wouldn't have it any other way... "The newspapers of Utopia. . . must be terribly dull." ~ Arthur C. Clarke.
 
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