Why would God's ultimate power come with ultimate responsibility?

[ppp]

Yes. Whether that makes them legit gods or not is entirely arbitrary a call.

Isn't that the case for anything that human call a god? It's not like there's some objective measure

 

[LuisDantas]

Isn't that the case for anything that human call a god? It's not like there's some objective measure

I quite agree.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why would it? Why would God want to manipulate human choices?

Why are you treating the "design" of this world as it is not "manipulating human choices"?

I never claimed that everything that happens to humans in this world is the result of free will choices.

You kind of did. You argued that bestowing free will on humanity absolves God of all responsibility for his actions.

I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. In my opinion, God is responsible for both the Good and the Bad things that happen to us, if those things were not freely chosen.

Even if they were freely chosen by humans, God would still be responsible.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the Bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our destiny, our fate, for which God is responsible.

So you agree that God is responsible for some evil?

I believe that God does things that are not detectable to humanity, and some of those things affect us, but we cannot know if those effects are a result of something God did, since we can never know what God is doing. Prayer would be a good example. We can never know if what happened was an answer to a prayer or it it would have happened anyway.

... because God's purported actions are always perfectly consistent with God not existing at all.

It seemed like a pretty straightforward question to me.

I think you left out a few words. This made it unparseable for me.

If God was doing something (however God does things) how do you could know what God is doing? How could anyone know?

Believers believe that God sends Prophets and Messengers but they cannot know that.

So what you are saying is the God that we describe (loving, just, etc.) does not seem to exist. I cannot argue against that since I don't like religions assigning attributes to God, as if they could ever know that God has those attributes.

It also doesn't seem like a loving God would create a world like this, knowing how much suffering would result. It also does not seem just to be that some people have to suffer so much more than others, through no fault of their own.

We don't need to assume a loving God to have a contradiction. All we need is:

- God has some sort of divine design;
- reality doesn't perfectly reflect God's design.

Maybe God's design reflects love; maybe it doesn't. There's a logical problem either way.

 

[CG Didymus]

If we're going from the assumption that God created the world and humanity according to his design, then there are only two possibilities:

- the design is functioning as intended. God deliberately created a world where car crashes would happen. In this case, God is definitely both responsible and culpable for the crash.

- the design is not functioning as intended. God designed a world where car crashes wouldn't happen, but the design has failed in some way so that they happen anyway. God has created a flawed design and is therefore a flawed designer. God is responsible for the outcome, but whether he's culpable depends on a number of factors.

If there is a creator God that created a universe where things can explode or crash into other things, then the God designed the universe to bad things happen to the tiny little creatures he created on one of the planets on one of the solar systems.

God created the planet in a way that it would have earthquakes, floods, volcanoes and deadly storms that God knew would kill people.

The problem for some religious people is how do they reconcile that with a supposedly "all-loving" God?

Any divine design would involve manipulation of human choices.

But even the Baha'i version of God gets involved. Even if Baha'is say their God doesn't get directly involved, that God still sends his manifestations/messengers to guide people to go in the direction that their God wants them to go.

You kind of did. You argued that bestowing free will on humanity absolves God of all responsibility for his actions.

"Free-will" would be part of his plan and design. He went ahead with that plan knowing how much evil, killing and damage giving people free will would do.

But, supposedly, that's okay with God, because in the end, people will have learned by their mistakes that they must listen to what God's manifestations have said. And for them to stop making the wrong free will choices and make the right ones.

But what is the point. Even Baha'is say that God is not like the Gods of some Hindus. God is not like the God of some Christians. People keep changing their beliefs about who and what God is. Are beliefs about a Baha'i sort of God real?

Right now, it seems important for some people to have a God that isn't responsible for any bad thing that ever happens to humans... that it is all their own fault... because they didn't listen to God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why are you treating the "design" of this world as it is not "manipulating human choices"?

To manipulate means to control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.
I would rather use the word determine, since the design of this world 'determines' human choices, since we can only function within the parameters available to us.

You kind of did. You argued that bestowing free will on humanity absolves God of all responsibility for his actions.

I never said that that bestowing free will on humanity absolves God of all responsibility for his actions.
Bestowing free will on humanity only absolves God of responsibility for freely chosen human actions, so for example if a man chooses to murder his wife that man is responsible for doing so. God is not responsible for human choices or actions.

Even if they were freely chosen by humans, God would still be responsible.

Why would God be responsible for actions that are freely chosen by humans? That makes no logical sense.
In courts of law people are only held responsible for what they actually do. They cannot blame someone else for their actions .and get away with it, so why blame God for freely chosen human actions?

So you agree that God is responsible for some evil?

Evil is defined as profoundly immoral and wicked and it is associated with human behavior. God is not a human so God cannot be immoral or wicked. Sadly, the Bible has anthropomorphized God so people relate to God as if God is a human.

I believe that God is responsible for some bad things that happen to us (what we consider bad) because everything that happens to us is not freely chosen by us. For example, I did not choose to have the parents I had and much of what has happened to me in life was determined by my childhood and adult experiences so it was not freely chosen. That was my fate, my destiny. I could blame God for all of that but I have learned over the course of time that it does me no good to blame God. I am only cutting off my nose to spite my face by harboring resentment towards God for my life. At this point in time it is much more constructive to pray to God for help managing my present situation.

... because God's purported actions are always perfectly consistent with God not existing at all.

You say that only because you expect to see God's actions. Nobody can see God's actions. The most we can do is believe that God is somehow acting favorably on our behalf.

We don't need to assume a loving God to have a contradiction. All we need is:

- God has some sort of divine design;
- reality doesn't perfectly reflect God's design.

Maybe God's design reflects love; maybe it doesn't. There's a logical problem either way.

I do not know what you mean by a divine design, do you mean divine purpose for humans?
If that is what you mean it is obvious why reality does not reflect that perfectly. It is became humans are the ones who are responsible for the unfolding of the divine purpose. God assists in that process but humans are responsible to fulfill God's purpose for humanity.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6- 7

 

[Trailblazer]

You can compare it to watching a movie. God's knowledge doesn't prevent anything, it simply couldn't happen any other way. In a movie, you can go back and forth but it will never change. So even if you don't know what will happen in the next scene, God will because he has seen the movie an infinite number of times . You can easily be surprised and hope for certain things to happen in it, but the movie will play out exactly as it was created.

The movie will play out exactly as the actors act it out. The movie producer knows what will happen but it is not the knowledge of the movie producer that causes the movie to unfold as it does, it is the actions of the actors.

Likewise, God knows how our lives will play out but it our actions that cause our lives to unfold as they do, not God's knowledge.
So whatever we choose to do from all the options available to us is what God knew we would choose since God is all-knowing.

It won't happen any other way than the way that God knows it will happen, but it could have happened another way.
In that case God would have known that the other way was how it would happen.

Yeah, you called it fate, I call it being at the wrong place at the wrong time. But there wasn't anything random about it, you rode your bike the time you did, the man drove his car at that moment, the phone ran etc. If we magically tracked back all the things leading up to the point where you got hit, I think we would reach the conclusion that it was logical that it happened, simply because we would have all the data available.

It is probably more the choice of "word" we use more than anything else.

I would say that my being at the wrong place at the wrong time was my fate but that is because I believe in God and that God fates some things that happen to us. Fate and free will are connected since that man's choice to drive as he did caused the bike accident, so not only God but also his free will choice led to my fate.

That doesn't surprise me, because if it was "will succeed" then that would prove God, or at least be an extremely strong argument and as an atheist I would welcome that

Prayers might prove God if they always succeeded.

 

[ppp]

That doesn't surprise me, because if it was "will succeed" then that would prove God, or at least be an extremely strong argument and as an atheist I would welcome that

It would demonstrate that a person praying to a good was effective. It would not show that the prayer succeeded because there was a god fulfilling the prayer. Hell, a god could exist, and still have nothing to do with prayer being effective.

 

[Truthseeker]

I don't think they would be completely different, because I believe there is a natural benefit for humans to be alike. Which is also why we group up etc. We like to be like others and be part of a group, but that is another discussion

This has nothing to do with what you and @Trailblazer are talking about, but you guys are very different in some ways, but look at how she gave you a friendly even though you disagree. I also note the friendly icon above.

 

[Nimos]

This has nothing to do with what you and @Trailblazer are talking about, but you guys are very different in some ways, but look at how she gave you a friendly even though you disagree. I also note the friendly icon above.

We get along very well

She was also the one who introduced me to the Bahai religion I had no clue it even existed before I spoke with her.

I think it is because we have talked for a long time and know each other's position, she knows very well that I am an atheist and, I that she is a Bahai. Also, none of us has the intention of trying to convince the other of being wrong about it, and therefore we can focus on discussing whatever the topic is.

So she just like me, will often give each other thumbs-up or friendly even if we clearly disagree, because the replies we give each other are as far as I am concerned always respectful. It is very easy to make replies where you talk down or are rude to someone or where the focus is on a personal level, but I think both of us agree that little is gained from something like that.

 

[Nimos]

It would demonstrate that a person praying to a good was effective. It would not show that the prayer succeeded because there was a god fulfilling the prayer. Hell, a god could exist, and still have nothing to do with prayer being effective.

I think one could make the argument that it would proof God, because you could simply pray for God to reveal himself/herself in their true form. Again the prayers would always come true in this thought experiment

 

[Nimos]

The movie will play out exactly as the actors act it out. The movie producer knows what will happen but it is not the knowledge of the movie producer that causes the movie to unfold as it does, it is the actions of the actors.

Likewise, God knows how our lives will play out but it our actions that cause our lives to unfold as they do, not God's knowledge.
So whatever we choose to do from all the options available to us is what God knew we would choose since God is all-knowing.

It won't happen any other way than the way that God knows it will happen, but it could have happened another way.
In that case God would have known that the other way was how it would happen.

This would be the very first step, before the movie is made. You could look at that as the design or initial phase of the script. But once everything is set in motion then it would be like a movie playing out where everything is fixed.

The issue is that it doesn't really make sense to even talk about how it could have played out differently. Because you can look at a single "action", let's say you getting hit by the car, either you were driving the bike at the moment you got hit by the car or you weren't. These two "actions" can't occur at the same time, so only one of them is true and in this case, it is you getting hit by the car.

God looking at the movie, would know that this will happen 20 minutes and 15 seconds into the movie, before he even pressed play (you were born) . I don't see how one would be able to maintain that God is all-knowing, yet make the argument that it could be different. Because at which point would this "action" be different? Was it just before you decided to get on the bike, was it earlier in the morning? the day before? What if you had broken your foot 2 days earlier? At which point would God know that you wouldn't use the bike? Eventually, as I see it, you end up back in the beginning and God knew all the way back then.

 

[Brian2]

You kind of did. You argued that bestowing free will on humanity absolves God of all responsibility for his actions.

I know @Trailblazer enough to know that she does not absolve God of anything that she sees God being responsible for.
The truth is that God is responsible for what God has done and humans are responsible for what they have done, and I believe @Trailblazer would agree.
I also think that you want God to be responsible for anything, even the things that you and others choose to do.

 

[CG Didymus]

I know @Trailblazer enough to know that she does not absolve God of anything that she sees God being responsible for.
The truth is that God is responsible for what God has done and humans are responsible for what they have done, and I believe @Trailblazer would agree.
I also think that you want God to be responsible for anything, even the things that you and others choose to do.

There is a big difference between your Christian beliefs and TB's Baha'i beliefs, Christians add in Satan. Satan is out to deceive people and to get them to do evil. But who is responsible for creating Satan? Did God know ahead of time that Satan would turn evil? Why did God cast Satan down to Earth? Was it just to have Satan test people or were there other reasons?

Either way, whatever Christians believe about Satan and what his purpose was, Baha'is disagree and say that Satan doesn't exist. For Baha'is, Satan is our lower, animal nature. He isn't real. But then what about the Christian triune God? Baha'is don't believe that is true either.

So, if the Baha'is are correct, those beliefs of Christians are wrong. The God and the Satan of Christians are just things that Christians came to believe as true as a way to explain the way things are.

But then if Christians are right, then what Baha'is believe about God, and that there is no Satan, are wrong. Those things are just made-up things that they believe are true to explain why things are as they are.

Atheists look at both of you and say, "Wait, what if both of you are wrong... and there is no God? Could both of your beliefs be just things that were made-up to explain why things are like they are? Where is your evidence that what you believe is true?"

Of course, there are reasons why Christians believe what they do, and why Baha'is believe what they do. But they contradict each other. And that's a good enough reason to question both of them.

 

[CG Didymus]

If the car manufacturer hadn't made the car, there would have been no crash.

And who's is responsible for defects in the car that cause accidents? But assuming that a God made the world, and so things like earthquakes and volcanoes would happen, and that God knew that it would kill people, then he's responsible... and he was okay with it.

That would be like the car manufacturer to have the wheels fall off or the gas tank to blow up at random times.

And then there is "free-will." Again, assuming a God designed humans... it would be like a car manufacturer designing a self-driving car. It programs it to know the right things to do. To stop at the right time. To drive at safe speeds. But also puts something in the program that gives the car "free-will." It can run stop lights if it chooses. It can go way faster than the speed limit. But the right thing to do is to follow the rules.

Now some person buys the car, and the car decides to show off how fast it can go and drives straight into a tree. I wonder... for TB, is the buyer responsible? Is the car? Or is the manufacturer? I'd have to put the blame on the manufacturer for giving the car "free-will".

But I suppose, for TB, it is the car's fault. It didn't have to drive so fast. It was its decision.

 

[Trailblazer]

And who's is responsible for defects in the car that cause accidents?

If there are defects in a car the car manufacturer is responsible and then there are recalls in order to correct the defects.

But assuming that a God made the world, and so things like earthquakes and volcanoes would happen, and that God knew that it would kill people, then he's responsible... and he was okay with it.

Yes, God is responsible for natural disasters that occur unless humans contributed to making them happen by their activities in the earth. For example, humans activities have led to global warming which can cause hurricanes. But earthquakes and volcanoes and tornadoes are God's responsibility.

And then there is "free-will." Again, assuming a God designed humans... it would be like a car manufacturer designing a self-driving car. It programs it to know the right things to do. To stop at the right time. To drive at safe speeds. But also puts something in the program that gives the car "free-will." It can run stop lights if it chooses. It can go way faster than the speed limit. But the right thing to do is to follow the rules.

If humans were like self-driving cars they would be like robots that God programmed to always do the right thing. God did not program humans to automatically do anything. The whole idea behind free will is that God gave man free will so man could choose to do good or bad things.

God sens Messengers to guide humanity on the straight path but not everyone follows their teachings and laws so some people do bad things, even evil things.

Now some person buys the car, and the car decides to show off how fast it can go and drives straight into a tree. I wonder... for TB, is the buyer responsible? Is the car? Or is the manufacturer? I'd have to put the blame on the manufacturer for giving the car "free-will".

But I suppose, for TB, it is the car's fault. It didn't have to drive so fast. It was its decision.

What humans choose to do is not God's fault just because God gave humans free will. What would have been the alternative to free will?
If humans could not make their own choices they would be programmed robots. God did not want robots.

Why do nonbelievers want to blame God for everything that humans choose to do wrong? It is patently illogical to blame God for human choices when humans are responsible for their own choices, as every court of law in the world knows.

 

[Trailblazer]

This would be the very first step, before the movie is made. You could look at that as the design or initial phase of the script. But once everything is set in motion then it would be like a movie playing out where everything is fixed.

The movie analogy is not really a good analogy since the movie script is determined by the script writer, so it is fixed, whereas what happens to humans in this life is largely determined by what humans decide to do.

Nothing that happens to humans in this life is fixed, not until it actually happens and becomes an event. However, one could say that what happens in to humans in this life is fixed in the mind of God, because it is already known by God so it is written on the Tablet of Fate since God knows everything we are going to 'decide' to do, beginning to end.

The issue is that it doesn't really make sense to even talk about how it could have played out differently. Because you can look at a single "action", let's say you getting hit by the car, either you were driving the bike at the moment you got hit by the car or you weren't. These two "actions" can't occur at the same time, so only one of them is true and in this case, it is you getting hit by the car.

In order for the bike accident to take place, two things had to happen. First, the driver of the car had to be driving down the road and not paying attention, and secondly, I had to be riding my bike right when he drove by. These two "actions" had to occur at the same time. If either one of these things had not occurred then the accident could not have occurred.

God looking at the movie, would know that this will happen 20 minutes and 15 seconds into the movie, before he even pressed play (you were born) . I don't see how one would be able to maintain that God is all-knowing, yet make the argument that it could be different.

I am not making the argument that God did not know what would happen at that point in time. Of course God knew because God is all-knowing.

However, that does not mean that it could not have been different. If that man had not decided to go out driving that day or if I had not ridden by bike to work that day it would have been different. Had that been the case, God would have known that would be the case.

Because at which point would this "action" be different? Was it just before you decided to get on the bike, was it earlier in the morning? the day before? What if you had broken your foot 2 days earlier?

The events that led to the bike accident could have been altered anywhere along the line in the chain of events.
The outcome would have been different if either the driver of the car or I had decided to DO something different that day rather than what we did.

At which point would God know that you wouldn't use the bike? Eventually, as I see it, you end up back in the beginning and God knew all the way back then.

Points in time only exist for humans who live on earth since earth exists in time as we measure time. God does not exist in time as we do but God knows everything that is ever going to happen to us in time, from the beginning until the end (of time as we know it).

 

[Brian2]

There is a big difference between your Christian beliefs and TB's Baha'i beliefs, Christians add in Satan. Satan is out to deceive people and to get them to do evil. But who is responsible for creating Satan? Did God know ahead of time that Satan would turn evil? Why did God cast Satan down to Earth? Was it just to have Satan test people or were there other reasons?

Either way, whatever Christians believe about Satan and what his purpose was, Baha'is disagree and say that Satan doesn't exist. For Baha'is, Satan is our lower, animal nature. He isn't real. But then what about the Christian triune God? Baha'is don't believe that is true either.

So, if the Baha'is are correct, those beliefs of Christians are wrong. The God and the Satan of Christians are just things that Christians came to believe as true as a way to explain the way things are.

But then if Christians are right, then what Baha'is believe about God, and that there is no Satan, are wrong. Those things are just made-up things that they believe are true to explain why things are as they are.

Atheists look at both of you and say, "Wait, what if both of you are wrong... and there is no God? Could both of your beliefs be just things that were made-up to explain why things are like they are? Where is your evidence that what you believe is true?"

Of course, there are reasons why Christians believe what they do, and why Baha'is believe what they do. But they contradict each other. And that's a good enough reason to question both of them.

Yes Christians disagree with other religions on many issues, and also disagree with atheists.

 

[Nimos]

Points in time only exist for humans who live on earth since earth exists in time as we measure time. God does not exist in time as we do but God knows everything that is ever going to happen to us in time, from the beginning until the end (of time as we know it).

God might experience time differently than humans, but he wouldn't be beyond it. Because time only makes sense if it is in relation to something else. Think about when you go to sleep, I think most people will agree, that the moment you fall asleep and wake up the next morning, it feels like a few seconds past, maybe even less. You have no sensation of time passing because you have nothing to relate it to. But that doesn't mean that time isn't passing, and a person observing you would experience the time normally. So even if you don't sense it, you still have to apply the rules of time. And the same would be the case for God, an event can't happen before a given period of time has passed.

The events that led to the bike accident could have been altered anywhere along the line in the chain of events.
The outcome would have been different if either the driver of the car or I had decided to DO something different that day rather than what we did.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. We are talking in relationship to God, if God knows it, at the beginning of time that you will be hit by the car at that exact moment, then it can't be altered later on. That would be contradictory to God knowing it at the beginning because then he would obviously know that you wouldn't be hit. It doesn't make sense to say that he knows that you would be hit and not hit at the same time, you don't have to be God to be able to do that, I can do it as well . That is what I meant. Compare it to that of rolling a dice, either it is a four or it is not a four. If God knows it is a four, then it will be a four, otherwise he would know it would be a two or three or whatever.

And that is what I meant with the question, at which point does God know whether it will be a four or not? And since the claim is that he is all-knowing then he must know it at the beginning of time and therefore the dice can't be anything other than that. And the same applies to you getting hit by the car, there are not several events deciding this. You simply combine it all into that of rolling a four on the dice, so you riding the bike, the man not paying attention, driving the car etc. etc. There is no difference between that and a dice roll or that of simply looking at it as a movie playing out.

That God knows it isn't what causes it, which we agree on. But things have to play out in a deterministic way if we are going to claim that God knows everything.

Try to use the dice example, if God knows that it will be a four, can it be any other result? and if so, how would that be possible, without God being wrong? Again, there is no difference between it being a dice roll or that of a human action, when talking about God being all-knowing. Adding humans to it does nothing besides removing the focus and adding confusion to the argument.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The following is a post from an atheist I was chatting with on another forum. I told him I would post it here to get other opinions.

Nothing you said addresses that with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. The only argument you could make is that God is either not all powerful, not all knowing, or not perfectly good. Which is it? The badly written, badly edited, contradictory, book Christians follow makes no sense to anyone who's read it that can think. Heck you don't even have anything written about your God from the people who met him. So use logic, you can't have infinite power and not be responsible for everything.

responsibility
something that it is your job or duty to deal with:

• It's her responsibility to ensure the project finishes on time.
• She takes her responsibilities as a nurse very seriously.

responsibility

In short, noblesse oblige.

 

[McBell]

Yes Christians disagree with other religions on many issues, and also disagree with atheists.

Christians disagree with Christians on a great many issues, so it is no surprise that Christians disagree with other religions on a greater number of issues.