Why would God's ultimate power come with ultimate responsibility?

[Link]

God does not have "Behaviour".

Salam

Sufis divided God's Names into three types:

Essence
Glory
Actions

I think his names are actually the following types:

Essence
Glory
Actions
Relationships

Note, I'm using names as commonly understood by Muslims. Names and titles and difference can be confusing, but I believe God has many titles and no specific name as in words, but that he has a parable type name, which is his face, word of light, and his perfect word on earth - today the Imam of time coupled with the Quran. Names (that are) the beauty I believe refers to Imams (a).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

.

Define behavior.

I ask because the definition I am familiar with is:

behavior​

the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.​

​

Which would mean that if God had no behavior, god would not do anything at all.
Which would also be a behavior.

I would define behaviour as a product of our own choices in embracing God's Will for humanity

Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will".

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Salam

Sufis divided God's Names into three types:

Essence
Glory
Actions

I think his names are actually the following types:

Essence
Glory
Actions
Relationships

Note, I'm using names as commonly understood by Muslims. Names and titles and difference can be confusing, but I believe God has many titles and no specific name as in words, but that he has a parable type name, which is his face, word of light, and his perfect word on earth - today the Imam of time coupled with the Quran. Names (that are) the beauty I believe refers to Imams (a).

Salam. I see all God's Names are the source of our Behaviors.

I see the Messengers are the perfect example of what we can choose to mould our behaviour towards, the Word (Quran) is our guide to perfect behaviour.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Salam. I see all God's Names are the source of our Behaviors.

I see the Messengers are the perfect example of what we can choose to mould our behaviour towards, the Word (Quran) is our guide to perfect behaviour.

Regards Tony

Salam

Yeah it can get confusing the division. Some names fall under more than one category. Have you read Du'a Jawthan Al-Kabir, I think there is 1001 titles of God there or names if you prefer.

 

[McBell]

I would define behaviour as a product of our own choices in embracing God's Will for humanity

Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will".

Regards Tony

Thank you.

So what do you call the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Salam

Yeah it can get confusing the division. Some names fall under more than one category. Have you read Du'a Jawthan Al-Kabir, I think there is 1001 titles of God there or names if you prefer.

Salam, no I have not read Du'a Jawthan Al-Kabir.

My thoughts are that the Names of God are unlimited across this creation and all the Worlds of God, which are also unlimited. So mind blowing amount of Names that are all One with God.

I see the confusion is that people try to separate the "Names of God", some make a God out of one or a few of the Names, yet all the Names become One with Allah. Like all the waves of light being the pure unrefracted white light.

How can we have predudices and war, if we were also to become One in God?

Only our own egos could prevent that.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you.

So what do you call the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others?

Either Godly or less godly, depending upon our choice of action. Our behaviours are part of this world of choice and defined by our relative state of mind and spirit.

God cannot be defined by attributes, only known because of the attributes, which are brought by the Messengers of God.

Big topic on its own.

Regards Tony

 

[McBell]

Either Godly or less godly, depending upon our choice of action. Our behaviours are part of this world of choice and defined by our relative state of mind and spirit.

God cannot be defined by attributes, only known because of the attributes, which are brought by the Messengers of God.

Big topic on its own.

Regards Tony

How does that answer my question?

I am not asking about God.
I am asking what do you call the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.

Most the world uses the word behavior.
But you have some special personal meaning for the word behavior which is incompatible with the way most people define and use it.

Which means you must have another word to use in order to describe the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.

What do you call the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How does that answer my question?

I am not asking about God.
I am asking what do you call the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.

Most the world uses the word behavior.
But you have some special personal meaning for the word behavior which is incompatible with the way most people define and use it.

Which means you must have another word to use in order to describe the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.

What do you call the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others?

Have a great day McBell. I am now at work.

Happy days, work and no play!

P/S I have no interest but pursuits of Godliness, I am boring.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

From post 57:

I don't think those scriptures are against free will. For example, if it is predestined that righteous go to eternal life, it is still possible that people freely decide do they want to be righteous or not.

The reason the righteous will go to eternal life is because they will freely decide to be righteous.
God has always known they would decide that because God is all-knowing.

Those who go to eternal life determined their own destiny by being righteous.
It was predestined by God because God has always known what any person will decide to do.

And knowing how things will go doesn't mean that people can't have free will.

No, there is no causal connection between what God knows and what people choose to do.
God knows everything that people will choose to do because God is all-knowing, but God's foreknowledge does not cause people to choose and act on their choices.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

 

[Trailblazer]

Define behavior.

I ask because the definition I am familiar with is:

behavior​

the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.​

​

Which would mean that if God had no behavior, god would not do anything at all.
Which would also be a behavior.

Please note that the definition says: the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.
That is referring to human behavior.

Behavior only applies to humans and other animals.
God is not a human or an animal, so God doesn't have behavior.

God has a mind and a will. From God's mind, God 'wills' certain things to happen they happen according to God's Will.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

 

[Trailblazer]

So what, you ask? Well, if there are higher dimensions that God inhabits (or maybe we all inhabit them) then could God have his own time dimension? In that case, our time dimension would appear to him as a fourth dimension of space, and therefore viewable in it's entirety, from the "outside" so to speak, while still being able to "exist" and change. Incidentally, in a sense, we would be able to have free will within our own time dimension, meaning that nothing influences our decisions apart from actual circumstances. It's like reading an (accurate) history book. What happened is fixed, but the characters had free will at the time.

In short, since we exist in our own time dimension, we have free will to choose and act within that dimension.
Since God does not exist in our time dimension God does not affect our decisions, although God knows what those decisions will be because God is all-knowing.

Does this make sense to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no "before" though, because we're looking at this from Gods timeless point of view. To a timeless God, every single event and action across the entirely of time and space don't occur temporally or as cause and effect, they just are.

To this God, time is no different to the three physical dimensions. Imagine you have two people standing 100m apart with a high wall between them. They're separated on the horizontal dimension and so have no specific knowledge of each other. For example, they can't know whether they're wearing the same colour top.

If you're standing at the end of the wall though, you can see them both. You're essentially existing outside that horizontal dimension and so you simply know whether they're wearing the same colour top. From their point of view, it is undetermined whether they're matching but you can see that it is a definitive and unchangeable fact. Perception doesn't change reality, and so if anything can perceive the entirety of the universe across time and space in one go, the entirety of that universe is fixed.

I agree with all of that.

I agree. God being all-knowing would only mean he would "always" know what choice we will make. God being all-powerful is what gives him the ability to control that choice. In fact, he couldn't not control it since he knows all of the possible options and all of the possible causes and actively chooses to create a universe that leads to the choices that actually exist.

God being all-knowing would mean he would "always" know what choice we will make. God being all-powerful is what gives him the ability to control that choice, so God could control our choices if God chose to. God could also choose to not control our choices, in which case we would make our own choices.

I agree that God knows all of the possible options and all of the possible causes and actively chooses to create a universe that leads to the choices that actually exist, but that does not mean that God controls the choices that we make. There is always more than one choice that we could make. God knows what we will choose because God is all-knowing, but God's knowledge is not what causes us to make any choices. We make those choices of our own volition, by using our own will to choose. How free we are to choose x or y is another discussion. Free will has many constraints.

It isn't untenable at all. It is the inevitable logical consequence of having an all-knowing and all-powerful God. It is a disturbing, uncomfortable and logically inconsistent position, which is why most believers in such things chose to ignore or dismiss it.

Let's keep this simple. Explain how having an all-knowing and all-powerful God prevents people from making choices.

The future must exist even if we can't (yet) see it because God can see it. If you have something in a sealed box, does it not exist until you open the box?

The future does not exist in this world until it becomes the present.
The future already exists in God's mind because God is timeless, so God is not subject to time as we know it in this world.

As you said:
"To a timeless God, every single event and action across the entirely of time and space don't occur temporally or as cause and effect, they just are."

 

[McBell]

Please note that the definition says: the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.
That is referring to human behavior.

Behavior only applies to humans and other animals.
God is not a human or an animal, so God doesn't have behavior.

God has a mind and a will. From God's mind, God 'wills' certain things to happen they happen according to God's Will.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

So how do you define behavior?

 

[Trailblazer]

So how do you define behavior?

The same way you did.
behavior is the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others.

Below is another definition. Please note that it refers to an organism. God is not an organism so God does not have behavior.

: anything that an organism does involving action and response to stimulation. b. : the response of an individual, group, or species to its environment. behavioral adjective.

Behavior Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the Messengers are the perfect example of what we can choose to mould our behaviour towards, the Word (Quran) is our guide to perfect behaviour.

What do Baha'is believe about "manifestations/messengers"?

In the Baha'i Faith, it is believed that the Manifestations of God are the only channel for humanity to know about God... They act as perfect mirrors reflecting the attributes of God into the physical world.​

​

The Manifestations of God are not seen as incarnations of God as God cannot be divided and does not descend to the condition of his creatures, but they are also not seen as ordinary mortals. Instead, the Baháʼí concept of a Manifestation of God emphasizes the simultaneously existing qualities of humanity and divinity. In the station of divinity, they show forth the will, knowledge, and attributes of God; in the station of humanity, they show the physical qualities of common man. A common Baháʼí analogy used to explain the relationship between the Manifestation of God and God is that of a perfect mirror.​

​

Baháʼu'lláh, the founder of the Baháʼí Faith, explained that at one extreme the Manifestations of God are humble servants of God and at the other extreme they claim to speak with the voice of God, and manifest his attributes to humanity.​

​

The Manifestations of God are believed to possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.[7] Thus, the Manifestations of God are special beings, having a unique relationship to God as they have been sent by God from the spiritual world as an instrument of divine revelation. They are understood to have existed in the spiritual world prior to their physical birth in this life.​

​

In expressing God's intent, the Manifestations of God are seen to establish religion in the world.[4] Each brings a book and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.​

Here's a list of most of the people Baha'is call "manifestations."

Bahá’u’lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as Himself, were included in this definition. Thus religious history is interpreted as a series of dispensations, where each Manifestation brings a somewhat broader and more advanced revelation, suited for the time and place in which it was expressed.​

Yeah it can get confusing the division. Some names fall under more than one category. Have you read Du'a Jawthan Al-Kabir, I think there is 1001 titles of God there or names if you prefer.

Is the Baha'i belief in manifestations compatible or comparable to Islamic beliefs?

For me, I don't see how Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses fit the definition of a "manifestation." Adam disobeyed God. I don't know what "book" or religion they started. They all came from the same religion. And I don't for sure, but I don't think they are considered to be more than ordinary men even in Judaism... unless Jews consider a prophet to be a "special" creation that is above and beyond the average human. But than are all of them even that of as being a prophet in Judaism?

Anyway, how are they seen in Islam?

 

[HonestJoe]

God being all-knowing would mean he would "always" know what choice we will make. God being all-powerful is what gives him the ability to control that choice, so God could control our choices if God chose to. God could also choose to not control our choices, in which case we would make our own choices.

This God can't make a choice, because a choice is a temporal act. Gods acts just "are" (which is why all of that Gods creations just "are"). You still have the fundamental problem here or attributing human concepts to a being that is defined is such a way to be totally incompatible with them.

Let's keep this simple. Explain how having an all-knowing and all-powerful God prevents people from making choices.

Because we're subject to cause and effect. Our "choices" are essentially just the function of electrical impulses in our brains. It's no different to saying rain chooses to fall.

The future does not exist in this world until it becomes the present.

Why wouldn't it? I think that's just a human-centric view of the universe. The concept of "future" could even be said to be relative across the universe and from different points of observation. And any given event that will occur in "the future" will be a deterministic function of the states and forces that existed prior to it (even all the states and functions we're not aware of).

 

[Link]

Is the Baha'i belief in manifestations compatible or comparable to Islamic beliefs?

For me, I don't see how Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses fit the definition of a "manifestation." Adam disobeyed God. I don't know what "book" or religion they started. They all came from the same religion. And I don't for sure, but I don't think they are considered to be more than ordinary men even in Judaism... unless Jews consider a prophet to be a "special" creation that is above and beyond the average human. But than are all of them even that of as being a prophet in Judaism?

Anyway, how are they seen in Islam?

With some Muslims, probably. With me, no, because I see successors as important as the founders and don't differ between them in terms of importance.

 

[Alien826]

In short, since we exist in our own time dimension, we have free will to choose and act within that dimension.

Yes, that, or a variant on it has always been my reason to claim that we do have free will. The "atheist" claim that we don't tends to be based on the idea that each successive state of the universe is determined by the previous state, so effectively everything is determined. While I see the logic of that, I feel that we have a form of free will by virtue of going through a decision process that is not constrained by anything outside our own minds.

If we introduce an external "thing" (doesn't have to be intelligent or have any other function) that can predict our actions, then it does seem to be that we are constrained to act out its predictions. Looking at it in more detail, if all future actions x, x1, x2 ... are predicted and happen in all cases that suggests that I had to do each x no matter what. No free will, though I might have an illusion of choice. A complication arises if I am aware of the prediction, but am unable to avoid it. Now this can occur because the prediction is accurate or because the something enforces the actions, giving another complication.

Since God does not exist in our time dimension God does not affect our decisions, although God knows what those decisions will be because God is all-knowing.

Now to the "separate time line" theory. My question was really aimed at testing the idea against current scientific knowledge, hence my question about two time dimensions. I agree that it would allow free will, but I note that you say that God does not (cannot?) influence our decisions. To support that, if God is seeing our space/time universe as a static four dimensional object, does that mean it cannot be changed as it has all (already?) happened? Also not intervening would seem to be a prerequisite for free will. Unfortunately it would define an impotent or total non-interventionist God which contradicts a lot of current religious belief.

Does this make sense to you?

Yes and no, as I have explained.

 

[CG Didymus]

With some Muslims, probably. With me, no, because I see successors as important as the founders and don't differ between them in terms of importance.

Thanks. For me, it's difficult to make Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity fit in with the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. Since it came out of a Shia Islam country, with people that were Shia's, then I'd expect there'd be some things that were compatible with Shia beliefs. Obviously, there are still some things that Baha'is claim and believe that even Shia's can't agree with.