Why would God's ultimate power come with ultimate responsibility?

[Link]

Thanks. For me, it's difficult to make Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity fit in with the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. Since it came out of a Shia Islam country, with people that were Shia's, then I'd expect there'd be some things that were compatible with Shia beliefs. Obviously, there are still some things that Baha'is claim and believe that even Shia's can't agree with.

If you read Quran, you will see how the verses about the day of judgment all contextualize each other. They take day of judgment to mean the manifestation of a founding Messenger and it's an impossible interpretation to maintain with the Quran. But impossible interpretations that contradict Quran - there is probably for every one you can think of a human who once held it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks. For me, it's difficult to make Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity fit in with the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith.

Why would they fit in? They are separate religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

This God can't make a choice, because a choice is a temporal act. Gods acts just "are" (which is why all of that Gods creations just "are"). You still have the fundamental problem here or attributing human concepts to a being that is defined is such a way to be totally incompatible with them.

God does not have a mind like a human or act like a human, but according to my beliefs God has a mind and a will so God can make choices and will things to happen.

Because we're subject to cause and effect. Our "choices" are essentially just the function of electrical impulses in our brains. It's no different to saying rain chooses to fall.

I do not believe that humans are just a function of electrical impulses in our brains. I believe that humans have a soul that operates through the brain and mind while we are alive in a physical body, and the soul is the person, our personality which is what causes us to make choices.

I believe we have a will and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.

Why wouldn't it? I think that's just a human-centric view of the universe. The concept of "future" could even be said to be relative across the universe and from different points of observation. And any given event that will occur in "the future" will be a deterministic function of the states and forces that existed prior to it (even all the states and functions we're not aware of).

Well, you are talking way over my head, theoretically. I was just trying to be very pragmatic about it. Nobody can know what will be in their future until the future arrives, in which case it becomes the present time.

 

[blü 2]

The following is a post from an atheist I was chatting with on another forum. I told him I would post it here to get other opinions.

Nothing you said addresses that with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. The only argument you could make is that God is either not all powerful, not all knowing, or not perfectly good. Which is it? The badly written, badly edited, contradictory, book Christians follow makes no sense to anyone who's read it that can think. Heck you don't even have anything written about your God from the people who met him. So use logic, you can't have infinite power and not be responsible for everything.

responsibility
something that it is your job or duty to deal with:

• It's her responsibility to ensure the project finishes on time.
• She takes her responsibilities as a nurse very seriously.

responsibility

I take it we're talking about a God on the Abrahamic model, who's omnipotent and omniscient.

That means God perfectly knew everything, down to the tiniest detail, that would ever happen in the universe [he] created.

And being omnipotent, [he] could have created the universe any way [he] pleased, even it meant altering it so that I wouldn't mistype the next WORD, or think about mistyping the next word.

So when God created the universe, [he]'d already taken ultimate responsibility for everything that will ever happen in it, and nothing that happens in it happens except and exactly how [he] willed it.

An alternative view might be of God out in [his] workshop, creating a universe, and saying "I wonder what'll happen if I do THIS?" But only a god who lacked omniscience could have such a thought.

Oh, and God is also said to be benevolent, just, and perfect. That's why [he] does nothing when (to recycle my standard example) little kids are drowning in backyard pools. [He] just lets 'em die. Thanks, God, you're terrific, so kind,. so loving, so powerful ...

 

[HonestJoe]

God does not have a mind like a human or act like a human, but according to my beliefs God has a mind and a will so God can make choices and will things to happen.

Yes, but with respect, your beliefs about God are internally inconsistent, that is my entire point. A being simply can't be both "outside time" and able to make "choices" (as we understand them). It's like talking about a square circle.

I do not believe that humans are just a function of electrical impulses in our brains. I believe that humans have a soul that operates through the brain and mind while we are alive in a physical body, and the soul is the person, our personality which is what causes us to make choices.

Sure, but you have absolutely nothing to back up that belief. The concept of a soul is just a tool to try to resolve the inconsistencies that developed in modern religion.

Anyway, that still doesn't explain how that would remove us from the chain of cause and effect that God would have created as a singular whole. Even if a soul exists, it would just another element of Gods creation and therefore entirely within the scope of his knowledge and control.

I believe we have a will and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

I agree, that is cause and effect. I don't see how that requires a soul or how a soul would change it. The key thing is that at any specific moment of decision, all of those factors will be fixed and so the resultant decision is always going to be the same. If you have a sum that involves adding two numbers together, the result could be literally any number. If the two numbers being added are already determined though, there is only ever one answer to the sum.

Well, you are talking way over my head, theoretically.

Again, with respect, I know (though that is very much pushing at the limits of my physics knowledge too). The point is that time and space are much more complex than we have long believed but most of our religious concepts are set within the simpler versions we long assumed were true. Science has changed and evolved in the context of that new and developing knowledge. Religion generally hasn't so even if it once made some kind of sense, that wouldn't necessarily still be the case.

 

[Nakosis]

If God simply made human obedient all you get would be modern automatons. With will and chose comes mistakes, with mistakes the baby steps each child must walk, before they can find their wisdom. Love requires patience and acceptance even for the pitfalls and mistake along the journey, as long as there is growth toward wisdom.

So, freewill?

With freewill comes the assumption of subjective experience?

 

[Ajax]

I found this text somewhere some time ago...

"First let's define god so we know that we're talking about the same concept.

God is infinite. He's omnipotent and omniscient. He's the creator of the Universe and everything in it. He's the master of space and time.

Do you agree with this definition? Good, let's move on.

God created this Universe and all of us, but in his infinite generosity he also gave us free will, i.e. we can do what we please during our lifetime and in the end god will judge us for how we behaved.

Is this about right? All right.

Now… we're having a nasty little problem here. If god is truly omnipotent and omniscient, like we've just agreed, then there cannot be freedom of choice because god must already know everything that you, me and everybody else will do with your lives since the beginning of time. He knows what you will do tomorrow, next week and ten years from now. He must know, otherwise he's no longer all-knowing and hence becomes fallible.

So, if god already knows every mistake that you will make during your life since the beginning of time, this implies that he created you on purpose to make these mistakes. He created a certain man named Hitler on purpose, knowing that this man would one day become responsible for the extermination of 6 million innocent people, for example.

This makes God directly and solely responsible for everything that goes on in our Universe."

 

[Trailblazer]

And being omnipotent, [he] could have created the universe any way [he] pleased, even it meant altering it so that I wouldn't mistype the next WORD, or think about mistyping the next word.

That's true.

So when God created the universe, [he]'d already taken ultimate responsibility for everything that will ever happen in it, and nothing that happens in it happens except and exactly how [he] willed it.

That's false, because after humans were created God gave humans free will, so humans are responsible for everything that happens in this world.
When God gave man free will God relinquished his responsibilities. God can do that because God is omnipotent.

Lots of things happen in this world that are not God's will. For example, when people murder or rape others tat is nit God's will, it is a choice made by man. God allows that to happen because God honors free will.

Oh, and God is also said to be benevolent, just, and perfect. That's why [he] does nothing when (to recycle my standard example) little kids are drowning in backyard pools. [He] just lets 'em die. Thanks, God, you're terrific, so kind,. so loving, so powerful ...

No, that is not why God does nothing. God does nothing because that is not God's responsibility. God is not a Superman who rescues little kids.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, but with respect, your beliefs about God are internally inconsistent, that is my entire point. A being simply can't be both "outside time" and able to make "choices" (as we understand them). It's like talking about a square circle.

I do not understand why you think a God who exists outside of time as we measure time cannot make choices.
They would not be choices as we understand choices, since nothing about how God operates, thinks and feels, is known to man.

Sure, but you have absolutely nothing to back up that belief. The concept of a soul is just a tool to try to resolve the inconsistencies that developed in modern religion.

No, I have nothing to back up my belief in the soul because the soul is a sign of God, whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind can ever hope to unravel.

What are the inconsistencies in modern religion that you think the concept of the soul is trying to resolve?

Anyway, that still doesn't explain how that would remove us from the chain of cause and effect that God would have created as a singular whole. Even if a soul exists, it would just another element of Gods creation and therefore entirely within the scope of his knowledge and control.

That's true. Everything that happens to us is cause and effect. The soul is just another element of Gods creation and therefore entirely within the scope of his knowledge and control, but God does not control our souls, we do, in the limited degree in which we are able to determine our own destiny.

I agree, that is cause and effect. I don't see how that requires a soul or how a soul would change it. The key thing is that at any specific moment of decision, all of those factors will be fixed and so the resultant decision is always going to be the same. If you have a sum that involves adding two numbers together, the result could be literally any number. If the two numbers being added are already determined though, there is only ever one answer to the sum.

Having a soul would not change cause and effect. Even if we had no soul we would still have a brain which causes us to choose and act on our choices.
I noted the various factors that I think play into our decisions, but with all due respect, I don't think anyone knows what actually causes us to choose x or y, or whether we could have chosen x instead of y at any given moment. How could that ever be proven?

I believe we can change our mind at any moment in time and choose something different. Haven't you ever heard of changing your mind at the last minute? I do that all the time and I am aware when I am doing it.

I do not believe that what we choose is predetermined, because in that case we would be nothing more than programmed robots. Humans are more than programmed robots. The human mind is far more complicated than anyone knows.

Again, with respect, I know (though that is very much pushing at the limits of my physics knowledge too). The point is that time and space are much more complex than we have long believed but most of our religious concepts are set within the simpler versions we long assumed were true.

I respect your knowledge of science. I studied many things but science is one thing I did not study in college. I find physics fascinating even though I don't understand the concepts.

The forum owner of the forum I posted on before I came here was an atheist who had a PhD in physics and he was a physics professor. He often talked way over my head but he was kind enough to try to explain things to people on the forum, come down to their level.

As a Baha'i, I believe that science and religion are both vitally necessary for the continuation and advancement of humanity, but they fall under a different purview, so religion cannot answer the questions that science can answer, and vice versa. For example, science cannot study the soul since it is not an entity that can be known to exist. It can only be believed to exist.

Science has changed and evolved in the context of that new and developing knowledge. Religion generally hasn't so even if it once made some kind of sense, that wouldn't necessarily still be the case.

As a Baha'i, I believe that both science and religion are constantly evolving in order to meet the needs of humans living in this world.
I believe that the Baha'i Faith meets the needs of the modern age since it was revealed by a Messenger of God for the modern age.

What was recorded in the Bible once made sense to people who lived back in those times, but it no longer makes sense to intelligent people living in the modern age, which is why so many people have become non-religious or atheists and agnostics. Bible believers are still trying to make the Bible fit the modern age but that effort will ultimately fail since the Bible was not intended to be the only holy book for all of time, as Christians believe.

 

[blü 2]

That's true.

That's false, because after humans were created God gave humans free will, so humans are responsible for everything that happens in this world.
When God gave man free will God relinquished his responsibilities. God can do that because God is omnipotent.

Lots of things happen in this world that are not God's will. For example, when people murder or rape others tat is nit God's will, it is a choice made by man. God allows that to happen because God honors free will.

No, that is not why God does nothing. God does nothing because that is not God's responsibility. God is not a Superman who rescues little kids.

But God knew that kid would die like that before [he] made the universe, so the kid died exactly as God had always intended. Nothing of the kind happened to young Trump, who also proceeds exactly as God had always intended. Where's the morality in such arbitrary decisions?

This post is of course exactly and to the letter what God has always intended, all those 14 bn years ago as [he] was making the universe.

 

[Trailblazer]

But God knew that kid would die like that before [he] made the universe, so the kid died exactly as God had always intended. Nothing of the kind happened to young Trump, who also proceeds exactly as God had always intended. Where's the morality in such arbitrary decisions?

This post is of course exactly and to the letter what God has always intended, all those 14 bn years ago as [he] was making the universe.

God knew it would happen but God did not intend for it to happen. It happened owing to life circumstances.

God is not up in the sky pulling strings. What God knows will happen is not the cause of anything that happens in this world.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

That does not mean that everything that happens to us is freely chosen. We do not choose our parents, where we were born, our heredity, and we do not choose accidents and injuries or diseases or our time of death. I think that some things happen because they were fated/predestined by God, but that does not mean that everything that happens to us is predestined.

 

[CG Didymus]

For me, it's difficult to make Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity fit in with the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith.

Now why would I say such a thing? Maybe because the Baha'is say things like this...

The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh, the followers of His Faith firmly believe, is that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process, that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony, that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their functions are complementary, that they differ only in the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society. - Shoghi Effendi​

​

I think the differences between some of the major religions are too great to think they ever came from the same source, the Abrahamic God. And even the Abrahamic religions are varied enough for me to disagree with the Baha'i belief of "progressive" revelation. However, because the Baha'i Faith does believe all the major religions came from one God, Baha'is try to make them all fit.

 

[blü 2]

God knew it would happen but God did not intend for it to happen. It happened owing to life circumstances.

God is not up in the sky pulling strings. What God knows will happen is not the cause of anything that happens in this world.

That's because [he] was already the all-knowing cause of everything that will ever happen when [he] created the universe 14 bn years ago ─ EXACTLY as [he] wanted it. Given an omnipotent and omniscient god ─ and what god being omnipotent wouldn't at once make [him]self omniscient (promising at the same time to sort out those unknown unknowns later) ─ there's no possible alternative.

So under theological free will, we all just roll down the grooves predestined for us since the beginning, deviating not even by the width of a quark. The question whether we'll enjoy the trip or not (like every other such question) is already answered too.

Or else God is NOT omnipotent and NOT omniscient. In which case we're left with scientific rather than theological determinism punctuated (it appears) by events triggered by quantum randomness having no classical cause.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's because [he] was already the all-knowing cause of everything that will ever happen when [he] created the universe 14 bn years ago ─ EXACTLY as he [he] wanted it. Given an omnipotent and omniscient god ─ and what god being omnipotent wouldn't at once make [him]self omniscient (promising at the same time to sort out those unknown unknowns later) ─ there's no possible alternative.

God has always known what was going to happen because God is all-knowing, but God' foreknowledge is not the cause of anything.
Humans are the cause of many things that happen to humans in this world if humans choose them and cause them to happen.

God is only the cause of what was not chosen by a human, what was irrevocably fated by God, and sometimes God is the cause of what was an impending fate, if prayer and entreaty cannot succeed in averting that fate.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.​

​

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.​

​

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133​

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”

What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...

 

[HonestJoe]

I do not understand why you think a God who exists outside of time as we measure time cannot make choices.
They would not be choices as we understand choices, since nothing about how God operates, thinks and feels, is known to man.

Maybe you should stop using the same words for the entirely different things God would do then (or maybe you should just stop claiming to know things about God that you also claim can't be known by man). The is the fundamental contradiction in monotheism I'm referring to; On one hand, God is defined as a mystical super being that is totally beyond human understanding but at the same time, God is depicted thinking and acting exactly like a human being, up to and including having imperfections and making mistakes.

What are the inconsistencies in modern religion that you think the concept of the soul is trying to resolve?

The general idea that there is something special that fundamental separates humans from (other) animals. This entire thing is largely about people not wanting to believe we're all just an irrelevant speck to the universe so if we want our lives to have meaning, we need to make it ourselves (which ironically, the religious end up doing anyway).

Having a soul would not change cause and effect. Even if we had no soul we would still have a brain which causes us to choose and act on our choices.

Why did you bring it up then? And of course, if having a soul isn't necessarily for free will, wouldn't that imply that (other) animals have it too.

I noted the various factors that I think play into our decisions, but with all due respect, I don't think anyone knows what actually causes us to choose x or y, or whether we could have chosen x instead of y at any given moment. How could that ever be proven?

Most things can't be proven but we can study, understand aspects and construct logically consistent theories.

Alternatively, I could just say I know based on faith and dismiss any logical contradictions out of hand, but that would be ridiculous wouldn't it?

I do not believe that what we choose is predetermined, because in that case we would be nothing more than programmed robots. Humans are more than programmed robots. The human mind is far more complicated than anyone knows.

Something being unpleasant to think about is a terrible reason not to believe it. If it wasn't, we could all wander around in blissful ignorance (until we were killed by something we refused to believe in).

As a Baha'i, I believe that science and religion are both vitally necessary for the continuation and advancement of humanity, but they fall under a different purview, so religion cannot answer the questions that science can answer, and vice versa. For example, science cannot study the soul since it is not an entity that can be known to exist. It can only be believed to exist.

The fundamental nature of science and religion aren't matters of belief, they're matters of fact. Religion describes sets of beliefs and practices (which could be about literally anything - remember that the word includes all the faiths that fundamentally contradict your own too). There is nothing about it that necessarily answers any questions. Science describes a principles and procedures for understanding reality. It is specifically intended for asking and answering questions in a structured manner.

Science could be (and in some cases probably has been) used to study the various concepts and ideas labelled "soul" (of which yours is just one). You can't unilaterally declare that anything "can't be known" and again, you certainly can't do that while claiming to know things about it! A self-confirming belief is less than meaningless.

All of this is clearly related to but drifting away from the core assertion you opened this thread with though, and the core inconsistency between the district concepts of God as the all-powerful, all-knowing mystery being and the guy who is just a step up from the Kings and Emperors, laying down laws and punishing those who break them.

 

[blü 2]

God has always known what was going to happen because God is all-knowing, but God' foreknowledge is not the cause of anything.
Humans are the cause of many things that happen to humans in this world if humans choose them and cause them to happen.

God's omnipotence and omniscience make human actions solely God's responsibility, since no one can depart even in the tiniest way from exactly what [he] foresaw and intended.

When humans have the power to blindside God, then you may have a case ─ at least as far as God's concerned. As I mentioned, there are still problems with freewill and science.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God is not moral or immoral since morality does not apply to God.

That's quite a statement.
So God isn't a moral agent?

Only humans are are subject to being moral or immoral.

Moral agents are subject to being moral or immoral.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What looks like evil is evil. That is why the justice system puts evil criminals in prison for life or gives them the death penalty.

The fact that God allows evil is logically explained by the fact that humans have free will, so humans can choose between good and evil.

So, if I take my gun and shoot the first kid I see, and God did not stop me, then we can conclude that God sees the demise of that little child as
an evil act that I chose to commit.

God did not cause 30,000 kids to die today so God is not responsible for those deaths.

An omniscient god that created all according to his plan and who knows what will happen before it happens, is ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING.


Suppose I am omniscient in that sense.
Suppose I and my wife plan on having a baby.
Suppose I know that if my wife and I have sex tonight we will get pregnant with a baby that will grow up to become Adolf Hitler who will be responsible for a world war and millions of deaths including one of the vilest act of racism known to human kind.
If however we would wait till tomorrow, the baby would not grow up to become that dictator.

Now suppose I still decide to go through with it and create that Adolf Hitler, knowing what will happen.

Wouldn't you consider me ultimately responsible for that world war and the millions of deaths that follow?

I sure would. In fact, I wouldn't go through with it at all.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why?

Because he knew what would happen and went ahead with it anyway.
If I spill a dangerous chemical somewhere while KNOWING some kid will be playing in that exact spot and die from the fumes later on - it matters not if it was the "free choice" of that child to play there or not. I am responsible for that kid's death. I knew what would happen and went ahead with it anyway. It is 100% my responsability.

Why would God be responsible for freely chosen human actions?

Because supposedly, he knows what will happen before it happens.

 

[Trailblazer]

God's omnipotence and omniscience make human actions solely God's responsibility, since no one can depart even in the tiniest way from exactly what [he] foresaw and intended.

Nobody will depart from what God foresaw only because God has perfect foreknowledge of what we will choose to do.
We can choose a or b or c, and whichever one of those we choose will be what God foresaw.
What God foresaw is not what God intended, it is what God knows we will choose.

When humans have the power to blindside God, then you may have a case ─ at least as far as God's concerned. As I mentioned, there are still problems with freewill and science.

Nobody can ever blindside God. God has always known what we would choose to do, from the beginning of creation.

Science cannot disprove that we have free will, not any more than religion can prove we have it.
How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything at all.