Will there be freewill in the afterlife?

[Acim]

For religions that put emphasis on this life being a test because we have freewill and can make bad/wrong decisions, will people have freewill in the afterlife? If freewill makes people so unpredictable that we need to be tested in the first place, what will keep them from making bad/wrong decisions in the afterlife? Will our freewill be removed? Will freewill be limited in some fashion so transgressions can't be made? If our freewill will be removed or limited later, what purpose is there in testing us at all?

I don't think people even understand free will in the current life.
Free choice and free will are not the same animal.

To answer the question I feel is being asked (given the main concept), I think the will in the afterlife is far more free than it is in material existence.

Wrong decisions are a matter of perspective that I honestly believe is found to be humorous in the non-material existence.

 

[psychoslice]

No, most teach that we must do away with our free will in this life to get to the next, mainly being heaven, so no, there would be no free will, you would be a robot, a toy.

 

[Acim]

Responded to the OP in my first post, then read the rest of the thread.

All interesting stuff. I sometimes don't see why a theological understanding is so difficult to get, but as one who at one time claimed to have zero idea, I guess I can relate. A lot of it though is just honestly exploring what one actually understands about concepts of good, evil, free will, etc. Helps, perhaps to have divine revelation, but arguably that can just get in the way even while that is arguably occurring all the time anyway.

 

[arthra]

This suggests that your version of god is not in full control or all-knowing. An all-knowing being would not require anyone to intercede on another's behalf as it would be fully aware of all relevant data. Can you give an example where such an intercession would be necessary?

Thanks Ymir for your question... I think the love and spiritual connection we have with each other is the ground for intercession. There is love of God for humanity and we return that love albeit not as fully as we should and there is love we have for each other. In many ways this love is also an essential element of prayer. We pray for each other...interceding for others.. they in their turn can intercede for us. God's Messengers can "mediate" and intercede for us.

 

[YmirGF]

Thanks Ymir for your question... I think the love and spiritual connection we have with each other is the ground for intercession. There is love of God for humanity and we return that love albeit not as fully as we should and there is love we have for each other. In many ways this love is also an essential element of prayer. We pray for each other...interceding for others.. they in their turn can intercede for us. God's Messengers can "mediate" and intercede for us.

I get that much, Arthra. What I don't quite understand is surely your version of god is fully aware of that love that exists and would not need to be reminded. Again, could you give an example where intercession or mediation would even be warranted?

 

[arthra]

could you give an example where intercession or mediation would even be warranted?

As above my friend.. I love my mother and she passed away over fifty years ago. I pray and ask God to provide for her spiritual well being in the spiritual world. I have a beloved daughter and pray that she will succeed in this life.. I have a friend named Ymir whose posts I have read and I pray he will find truth in this lifetime...! That yearning and love we have for the other person is the bases for our prayers of intercession.

 

[JustWondering]

Baha'is believe there can be progress in the spiritual worlds after our passing...

Truthfulness is the foundation of all the virtues of the world of humanity. Without truthfulness, progress and success in all of the worlds of God are impossible for a soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also become realized.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith -, p. 384)



Much depends on God's mercy but also we can intercede for others who have passed on and they can intercede for us:

"...we can be assured that the true and faithful believer will be in a much better position to intercede for his ancestors, and aid in their development than if he were not spiritually enlightened."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 12, 1942)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 228)

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God. But intercession in the other world is not like intercession in this world: it is another thing, another reality, which cannot be expressed in words."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith -, p. 329)

Your post was confusing, could you elaborate? Your religion doesn't have a permanent afterlife where we end up, it's a series of spiritual worlds people move through?

 

[JustWondering]

The main principle in Christianity is that even if we wanted to be completely good we couldn't without God's help - hence the principle of Grace. The idea is therefore that those who desire and work all their lives will receive, as gift from God, a cleansing of their souls and a change of heart. They will be born again becoming a new person whose desires and passions are no longer dictated by their natural passions but by the Spirit of God. So those who enter heaven, having gone through this process, can no longer sin since sin requires an evil desire to exist.

So they will no longer have freewill?

 

[JustWondering]

I believe the vast majority of those granted everlasting life will live on earth, not in heaven. (Psalm 37:10,11,29) The Bible reveals that once sin and death received from Adam have been eliminated, those then living will be subjected to a searching test of their integrity. Those who refuse to follow Satan will be judged worthy of everlasting life, while those who yield to selfish inclinations will follow Satan into everlasting death. Since Jehovah judges them to be righteous, it would be very unlikely that these faithful ones would one day turn wicked. If any would ever do so, there would be no valid reason to delay their destruction, IMO.
(Revelation 20:7-10)

The bolded part confuses me. I thought sin is only possible because we have freewill, so how can sin be eliminated without eliminating freewill?

 

[JustWondering]

I don't think people even understand free will in the current life.
Free choice and free will are not the same animal.

I agree.

To answer the question I feel is being asked (given the main concept), I think the will in the afterlife is far more free than it is in material existence.

Wrong decisions are a matter of perspective that I honestly believe is found to be humorous in the non-material existence.

So more choices/freedom. What is your concept of the afterlife like?

 

[YmirGF]

As above my friend.. I love my mother and she passed away over fifty years ago. I pray and ask God to provide for her spiritual well being in the spiritual world.

But the prayer would be redundant as, in theory, all of her needs would be amply met.

I have a beloved daughter and pray that she will succeed in this life..

Hopefully you armed her with a bit more training and resourcefulness than you prayers, my friend.

I have a friend named Ymir whose posts I have read and I pray he will find truth in this lifetime...!

In your terms, Arthra, I have long been the beneficiary of my own "truth" for a very long time. Your comment presuposes that I have not already done so. Arrogance?

That yearning and love we have for the other person is the bases for our prayers of intercession.

I mean this as kindly as possible, Arthra, but if you feel a need to pray for intercessions you do not have a lot of faith in your god to provide, with abundance, for his creations in that you feel a need to remind or beg for more than what you already possess.

 

[arthra]

I mean this as kindly as possible, Arthra, but if you feel a need to pray for intercessions you do not have a lot of faith in your god to provide, with abundance, for his creations in that you feel a need to remind or beg for more than what you already possess.

.. Thanks Ymir for your kindness! You take care now.

 

[arthra]

Your post was confusing, could you elaborate? Your religion doesn't have a permanent afterlife where we end up, it's a series of spiritual worlds people move through?

Yes... We believe after we leave this physical frame the soul ascends to the spiritual worlds of God.

Here are some references re. the spiritual worlds:

"To man, the Essence of God is incomprehensible, so also are the worlds beyond this, and their condition. It is given to man to obtain knowledge, to attain to great spiritual perfection, to discover hidden truths and to manifest even the attributes of God; but still man cannot comprehend the Essence of God. Where the ever-widening circle of man's knowledge meets the spiritual world a Manifestation of God is sent to mirror forth His splendour."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 66

"For the Kingdom of God is sanctified (or free) from time and place; it is another world and another universe. But the holy souls are promised the gift of intercession. And know thou for a certainty, that in the divine worlds, the spiritual beloved ones (believers) will recognize each other, and will seek union (with each other), but a spiritual union. Likewise, a love that one may have entertained for any one will not be forgotten in the world of the Kingdom. Likewise, thou wilt not forget (there) the life that thou hast had in the material world."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 204

 

[Tumah]

For religions that put emphasis on this life being a test because we have freewill and can make bad/wrong decisions, will people have freewill in the afterlife? If freewill makes people so unpredictable that we need to be tested in the first place, what will keep them from making bad/wrong decisions in the afterlife? Will our freewill be removed? Will freewill be limited in some fashion so transgressions can't be made? If our freewill will be removed or limited later, what purpose is there in testing us at all?

Free will in the context of our being tested refers to the ability to choose to do an evil (or less good) act and requires evil to exist. You can't choose to touch a fire if there is no fire in your vicinity. Choosing to take the elevator rather than the escalator, doesn't have this requirement, so presumably that type of choice will still exist.

The purpose of being tested is so that later, during the time of reward (which occurs after the time that evil is vanquished), we can reap the reward for having chosen correctly.

 

[Thanda]

So they will no longer have freewill?

There will be - and those in heaven will be those who will never freely choose to do evil.

 

[peacecrusader888]

Yes, there is free will in the afterlife. How do you think was Luzbel (name of Satan in Heaven) expelled from Heaven?

 

[Acim]

So more choices/freedom. What is your concept of the afterlife like?

Actual freedom, not the illusion of freedom we have now.

My concept of afterlife is: existence of Life minus material existence (aka illusion)

 

[OurCreed]

If that were true, what is "good" and what is "evil" in the mind of one would be nearly identical to what is "good" and what is "evil" in the mind of the another. We are, after all, "designed by God".

But even the most cursory examination of human cultures and civilizations across time shows this not to be true.

Many slavers of the South saw slavery as part of the natural order of things; and at least, "not evil"; where the majority of peoples and society see this as an atrocious act. Today, racists rampage across the globe, seeing separation or annihilation of other races as "good"; but the majority of peoples and society sees this as "evil". In many nations, the "marriage" of a 14 year old is met with celebration and joy, but many within our world sees the marriage of a 14 year old an evil act and see coercion there. Gays in many nations may engage in holy matrimony being met with neutral or joyful responses, but in many nations, this is considered so evil that capital punishment is justified; which, of course, many nations see as evil.

Your claim that mankind has an instinctual, intrinsic understanding of "good" and "evil" does not reflect the reality of our world or the human condition.

In other words: It's not true.

If that were true, what is "good" and what is "evil" in the mind of one would be nearly identical to what is "good" and what is "evil" in the mind of the another. We are, after all, "designed by God".

But you have to take into account that minds change. There is something called conditioning, there is something called brainwashing, there is something called ignorance. All the minds created by God, all understand the basic principles of right and wrong. I don't have to prove to someone that causing pain is bad, they inherently feel that. But moral issues go deeper when we take a look at deeper subjects, and these are all influenced by the culture and society around us. As we age, we begin to shift our understanding of what is good and what is evil.

The root of it all is the same, but since we have free will, autonomy and rationality, we are going to differ for sure. So your statement is flawed. God created everyone with the same understanding as babies.

Your examples just further prove what I just said.

 

[viole]

Yes there will be free will. However, the next life is not like this life. So everything that we do in the next life will technically be 'good'.

Good and evil is defined by God, not by us. The reason we consider things in this life to be evil (and I already explained this to you), is because of the certain conditions that make us label it to be evil. We label pain as evil, so anything that causes us pain to be something that we want to avoid. Anyone who causes pain is acting in the name of evil.

The next world is not like this world...at all. The Islamic religion clearly states that the next world is nothing we have seen or experienced before.

So God has created a world where nothing in it can be labelled as "evil" by us. So everything that we do of our free will, will be good by nature.

Do children who die very young go to heaven?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Without the perception of evil, we would be robots.

You cannot have goodness without evil, and vice versa. Similarly, you cannot have up without down.

This contradicts your statement that in Heaven there can only be good. How can you have only good (up) if you have no evil (down)?

Ciao

- viole