With bafflement upon bafflement!

[Harel13]

A helping friendly false prophet who has the best intentions is still prohibited. Deuteronomy 13.

Likewise Chananyah ben Azur, possibly the most famous Tanachic false prophet.

 

[Redemptionsong]

OK. I'll keep that in mind.

OK, that's super helpful. Thanks.

A helping friendly false prophet who has the best intentions is still prohibited. Deuteronomy 13.

If Satan believes it would be in everyone's best interest to worship 2 gods, one on heaven, one on earth, and brings miracles to prove it, is that the Holy Spirit?

Certainly good intentions are not the only factor?

Ah! I object, your honor.

The fig tree, the miracle of the fig tree was not "love" nor "compassion" it was "power" and "vengeance".

Matthew 21:18-19​

18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. 19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
​

Poor little fig tree. What did it do wrong? Jesus could have made it bloom. Instead he took out his frustration on the tree. No one would eat of it ever again. That's called "scorched earth" strategy.

A scorched-earth policy is a military strategy that aims to destroy anything that might be useful to the enemy.​

Scorched earth - Wikipedia
​

So no, not all his miracles demonstrated love and compassion.

Then later in Acts there's this: Ananias and Sapphira - Wikipedia. Not love, nor compassion by "the comforter" aka "Jesus in the clouds".

The fig tree has nothing to do with Jesus' compassion for lost souls. The cursing of the fig tree was a prophetic picture of a nation not displaying fruit in and out of season. It's a story wedged between the 'triumphal entry' of God's anointed Christ into Jerusalem on an ***, and the turning of the traders out of the temple.

It seems that a residue of Jews, particularly from amongst the poor in society, accepted the coming of the Messiah Prince; but the Jewish nation, represented by the High Priest and its religious authorities, did not.

Then we have the story of Ananias and Sapphira. They were 'born again' believers in the Church, and they lied to the Holy Spirit by keeping back part of the wealth they had dedicated to the body. In effect, they placed themselves in judgement before God, and were found wanting. The time of their forgiveness had passed.

The same is true for all who seek to know God. There is a time for mercy, and a time for judgement. See 2 Peter 3:9-13.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Likewise Chananyah ben Azur, possibly the most famous Tanachic false prophet.

Did the false prophet heal the sick and cast out demons?

 

[dybmh]

The fig tree has nothing to do with Jesus' compassion for lost souls. The cursing of the fig tree was a prophetic picture of a nation not displaying fruit in and out of season. It's a story wedged between the 'triumphal entry' of God's anointed Christ into Jerusalem on an ***, and the turning of the traders out of the temple.

Then we have the story of Ananias and Sapphira. They were 'born again' believers in the Church, and they lied to the Holy Spirit by keeping back part of the wealth they had dedicated to the body. In effect, they placed themselves in judgement before God, and were found wanting. The time of their forgiveness had passed.

The same is true for all who seek to know God. There is a time for mercy, and a time for judgement. See 2 Peter 3:9-13.

Yes, agreed. The fig tree is not a miracle demonstrating love and compassion. The Ananias/Saphira incident also not about love and compassion. ( Not sure if you consider it a miracle, or not )

Jesus always demonstrated the love of God, and his miracles were always a demonstration of power with compassion.

I bolded the word "always". This statement ^^ is not true. The fig-tree proves it.
---------------------------------------------------

So, again, the criteria to determine the Holy Spirit, *must* be more than good intentions? Right?

 

[dybmh]

Did the false prophet heal the sick and cast out demons?

Illusions, trickery... are on the table, cannot be over looked.

A demon can possess someone, then leave, the appearance is the demon was cast out. The prophet doesn't do it, that's the illusion. The same is true for healing, an ailment can be caused by Satan, then the cause removed... poof, it looks like the victim was healed by a false prophet.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, agreed. The fig tree is not a miracle demonstrating love and compassion. The Ananias/Saphira incident also not about love and compassion. ( Not sure if you consider it a miracle, or not )

I bolded the word "always". This statement ^^ is not true. The fig-tree proves it.
---------------------------------------------------

So, again, the criteria to determine the Holy Spirit, *must* be more than good intentions? Right?

The message of Jesus is 'good news' for the very fact that he did not come to bring judgement, but salvation from sin.

Luke 9:56. 'For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'

The goodness that comes from God, as the Holy Spirit, is a righteous and loving Spirit. It provides the motivation to do works of faith.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Illusions, trickery... are on the table, cannot be over looked.

A demon can possess someone, then leave, the appearance is the demon was cast out. The prophet doesn't do it, that's the illusion. The same is true for healing, an ailment can be caused by Satan, then the cause removed... poof, it looks like the victim was healed by a false prophet.

As Jesus rightly said, 'And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?'

Demons don't willingly leave a house in which they have made themselves at home! Why should they?

 

[dybmh]

The message of Jesus is 'good news' for the very fact that he did not come to bring judgement, but salvation from sin.

He did not come to bring judgement? Ummmm, not according to Matthew.

Matthew 25

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.​

Seperating the sheep from goats is judgement. what happens next?

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
​

The ones on the right are blessed.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
​

The ones on the left are cursed. That's judgement. So no, not just to save.

Luke 9:56. 'For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'

Earlier in Matthew this is addressed, what does it mean to be "saved"?

Matthew 16:24-27

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
​

A saved life = losing life, then finding life. Salvation comes at a price.

The goodness that comes from God, as the Holy Spirit, is a righteous and loving Spirit. It provides the motivation to do works of faith.

So the test is if it motivates to *works* of faith?

Nadav and Avihu witnessed the offerings and were motivated to works of faith bringing strange fire into the inner alter... ZAP! So just being motivated to works of faith isn't enough to determine whether or not a spirit is Holy. Keep going though, maybe we'll get to an answer eventually.

 

[dybmh]

As Jesus rightly said, 'And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?'

Demons don't willingly leave a house in which they have made themselves at home! Why should they?

Because they obey their master.

The argument, Satan divided against himself only works if the possession is by Satan himself. Any lower level demon would be subservient to Satan.

Satan puffs up the false prophet, coaches them, tells them what to say and do. Satan is there to complete the illusion. Bippity-boppity-boo there's a false prophet working wonders, healing, casting out, and rising from the dead. But it's all just a test.

 

[Harel13]

Did the false prophet heal the sick and cast out demons?

He prophesied that the Temple will not be destroyed by the Babylonians and instead Judah will be redeemed. Have you only read the purported Jesusian parts of Jeremiah?

 

[Redemptionsong]

He did not come to bring judgement? Ummmm, not according to Matthew.

Matthew 25

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.​

Seperating the sheep from goats is judgement. what happens next?

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
​

The ones on the right are blessed.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
​

The ones on the left are cursed. That's judgement. So no, not just to save.

Earlier in Matthew this is addressed, what does it mean to be "saved"?

Matthew 16:24-27

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
​

A saved life = losing life, then finding life. Salvation comes at a price.

So the test is if it motivates to *works* of faith?

Nadav and Avihu witnessed the offerings and were motivated to works of faith bringing strange fire into the inner alter... ZAP! So just being motivated to works of faith isn't enough to determine whether or not a spirit is Holy. Keep going though, maybe we'll get to an answer eventually.

The passage you've quoted from Matthew is about the second coming, when the Lord judges. This is further evidence that Jesus saw himself as the Son of man, who comes first to save, then to judge.

To be saved is to find eternal life. The death of the body is the first death, but the death of the soul is the second, so to be saved is to save one's soul.

Matthew 16 is about death of the body on earth, and eternal life in Christ.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Because they obey their master.

The argument, Satan divided against himself only works if the possession is by Satan himself. Any lower level demon would be subservient to Satan.

Satan puffs up the false prophet, coaches them, tells them what to say and do. Satan is there to complete the illusion. Bippity-boppity-boo there's a false prophet working wonders, healing, casting out, and rising from the dead. But it's all just a test.

Good overcomes evil. This is the message of God through the Holy Spirit. One must be careful not to be deceived, and it just happens that one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the Church is the power to discern spirits [1 Corinthians 12:10].

I should add that the power of good in a believer is not his own good. Romans 10:1-4 is a crucial passage with respect to understanding the difference between righteousness under the law and righteousness under grace. When l talked about 'good intentions' these are not man's intentions but the intentions of the Holy Spirit, received by faith.

 

[Redemptionsong]

He prophesied that the Temple will not be destroyed by the Babylonians and instead Judah will be redeemed. Have you only read the purported Jesusian parts of Jeremiah?

The false prophet is recognised by the accuracy of his prophecies.

Sadly, many of God's prophets were put to death without reason by self-righteous people who disliked their call for lsrael to repent!

 

[Harel13]

The false prophet is recognised by the accuracy of his prophecies. Sadly, many of God's prophets were put to death without reason by self-righteous people who disliked their call for lsrael to repent!

I will reiterate the question you seem to have ignored: Have you only read the purported Jesusian parts of Jeremiah?

 

[dybmh]

The passage you've quoted from Matthew is about the second coming, when the Lord judges. This is further evidence that Jesus saw himself as the Son of man, who came first to save, then to judge.

To be saved is to find eternal life. The death of the body is the first death, but the death of the soul is the second, so to be saved is to save one's soul.

Matthew 16 is about death of the body on earth, and eternal life in Christ.

If you're right, this is different that simply saying, "He came to save not to destroy". He came first to save ( with a price, not a free gift ) and will come to destroy later is a complete truth. "He came to save not destroy" is a half truth, lying by omission, deception. But by analyzing what is written, the whole truth is much different.

Good overcomes evil

Sure. But that does not deny that Satan commands his minions and can create an illusion where a false prophet heals, casts out demons, and rises from the dead. You are under estimating whom you call "god of the earth". Seems like a mistake to me.

One must be careful not to be deceived, and it just happens that one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the Church is the power to discern spirits [1 Corinthians 12:10].

Not sure about verse 10, verse 3 says:

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
​

Is that what you meant? It's not a valid test. The spirit is testifying about itself. That can't be trusted. Besides, the label "Lord" is really just another name for the god "Baal". So applying the title "Lord" to "Jesus" can mean a lot of things, not always good things. There must be another way to tell if the spirit is from God.

 

[dybmh]

The false prophet is recognised by the accuracy of his prophecies.

The false prophet is recognized by speaking falsely about God OR advocating for foreign OR advocating religious practices of the unholy nations including Egypt.

God incarnating as a man-king is egyptian.
God is Love is greek.
Eating flesh and drinking blood for eternal life is pagan.
God the father / god the son / god the holy spirit is a pantheon.
The dove is the symbol for Asherah a cannanite god.

And this doesn't include the contradictions to Jewish scripture which are essentially spreading falsehood about God. My favorite is Paul says the law is a curse. This is completely opposite what King David said. Therefore Christianity , per Paul, does not represent the theology of King David, nor the "true" version of the Jewish religion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I will reiterate the question you seem to have ignored: Have you only read the purported Jesusian parts of Jeremiah?

I am not familiar with your 'Jesusian' distinction.

I am aware of the differences between the Septuagint and the Massoretic texts in Jeremiah, and also of the ch.36 events between Baruch and Jehoiakim, which led to the burning of the original, and a rewriting with additional material.

The KJV, which l usually read, follows the Massoretic text.

 

[Redemptionsong]

If you're right, this is different that simply saying, "He came to save not to destroy". He came first to save ( with a price, not a free gift ) and will come to destroy later is a complete truth. "He came to save not destroy" is a half truth, lying by omission, deception. But by analyzing what is written, the whole truth is much different.

Sure. But that does not deny that Satan commands his minions and can create an illusion where a false prophet heals, casts out demons, and rises from the dead. You are under estimating whom you call "god of the earth". Seems like a mistake to me.

Not sure about verse 10, verse 3 says:

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
​

Is that what you meant? It's not a valid test. The spirit is testifying about itself. That can't be trusted. Besides, the label "Lord" is really just another name for the god "Baal". So applying the title "Lord" to "Jesus" can mean a lot of things, not always good things. There must be another way to tell if the spirit is from God.

In Matthew 7:7-12, Jesus makes clear that the seeker after truth, asking good things of the Father, will not be disappointed.

In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus points out how to distinguish a false prophet - which is by his 'fruit'.

 

[dybmh]

In Matthew 7:7-12, Jesus makes clear that the seeker after truth, asking good things of the Father, will not be disappointed.

In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus points out how to distinguish a false prophet - which is by his 'fruit'.

How is this different than the temptation in Eden?

By these standards, the serpent was a true prophet who should be followed.

 

[Redemptionsong]

If you're right, this is different that simply saying, "He came to save not to destroy". He came first to save ( with a price, not a free gift ) and will come to destroy later is a complete truth. "He came to save not destroy" is a half truth, lying by omission, deception. But by analyzing what is written, the whole truth is much different.

Jesus was not telling a 'half truth'. His life was given as a payment for many, and resulted in bodily death. His words from the cross bear witness to the fulfilment of a role; 'It is finished [completed]'.

The resurrection of Jesus was birth into a new spiritual life. It's the resurrection and ascension that enables us to distinguish between the Suffering Servant and the King of Kings [Rev.19:16]; it's the King of Kings who brings judgement upon the earth.