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With bafflement upon bafflement!

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
How is this different than the temptation in Eden?

By these standards, the serpent was a true prophet who should be followed.
How so?

The scripture makes a very clear distinction between fruits that are of the Holy Spirit, and works that are of the 'flesh'.

Galatians 5:16 -26.

I want to know, from you and Harel13, what you think is the difference between righteousness under the law, and righteousness under grace.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
And this doesn't include the contradictions to Jewish scripture which are essentially spreading falsehood about God. My favorite is Paul says the law is a curse. This is completely opposite what King David said. Therefore Christianity , per Paul, does not represent the theology of King David, nor the "true" version of the Jewish religion.
This is a misrepresentation of Paul's point. Have you read the whole of Galatians 3?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, why?
Just curious. It sounded like you had no idea who the false prophet in Jeremiah was.
Can you tell me how righteousness is achieved under the law?
You've pretty much ignored a lot of the well thought-out sources, points and questions I've posted here. Not everything, of course, but a significant percentage nonetheless. I will therefore take a hard pass on this question.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Just curious. It sounded like you had no idea who the false prophet in Jeremiah was.

You've pretty much ignored a lot of the well thought-out sources, points and questions I've posted here. Not everything, of course, but a significant percentage nonetheless. I will therefore take a hard pass on this question.
I have not side-stepped any of your questions. In fact, l've given an answer that demonstrates, scripturally, that Jesus did not adopt Samaritanism.

I provided quotes to show that Jesus regularly visited the temple in Jerusalem. This is something a Samaritan would not have done.

I provided the scriptures in which Jesus spoke to a Samaritan woman [John 4]. May l remind you of these words: 'The woman saith unto him, Sir, l perceive that thou art a prophet.
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the the Father in spirit and truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth'.

Jesus rises above both Jew and Samaritan in claiming to be the salvation of God.

I also provided evidence that the genealogies point to Jesus being a human descendant from the house of David, through Nathan. By the marriage of Mary to Joseph, their child inherited a royal right to the throne of David. Can anyone else make this royal claim following the curse on Jeconiah's seed?

Maybe you could now answer my simple but important question, How is righteousness achieved under the law of Moses?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This is a misrepresentation of Paul's point. Have you read the whole of Galatians 3?
I've read it! Paul's point is "we are no longer under the curse of the law". Though, he needs the law to claim God's blessing through Christ, so, it was at one time useful for that specific purpose. In all other ways it's a curse, it's foolish, a yoke of burden. Paul's theology is completely opposed to the theology of King David. Psalms 119.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
How is righteousness achieved under the law of Moses?
Righteousness is defined in Ezekiel 18:5-9. Don't overlook "walk in the LORD God's statutes" and "keeping the LORD God's judgements". Walking and keeping are physical requirements not spiritual/cerebral actions. Statutes and judgements are the whole law, not just the 2 Jesus spoke of.

Also of note: That chapter repeated prohibits "dining on the mountain", probably because it was an idolatrous activity similar to making an offering on the "high places". Wasn't there a story about Jesus taking a crowd of people up on the mountain and miraculously feeding them? ( Sounds like that was forbidden for the righteous, per Ezekiel )
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Righteousness is defined in Ezekiel 18:5-9. Don't overlook "walk in the LORD God's statutes" and "keeping the LORD God's judgements". Walking and keeping are physical requirements not spiritual/cerebral actions. Statutes and judgements are the whole law, not just the 2 Jesus spoke of.

Also of note: That chapter repeated prohibits "dining on the mountain", probably because it was an idolatrous activity similar to making an offering on the "high places". Wasn't there a story about Jesus taking a crowd of people up on the mountain and miraculously feeding them? ( Sounds like that was forbidden for the righteous, per Ezekiel )

You should be looking to Moses to find a definition of righteousness under the law!

Paul, a Pharisee brought up under the law, was well aware that God had spoken these words to the children of lsrael, through Moses:
Leviticus 18:5: 'Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: l am the LORD'.

The law requires obedience, and life is in the doing of all the law. This is what it means to be righteous under the law. It has nothing to do with faith, because obedience to 613 written commandments does not require faith. If you are taught the commandments, and you live under the law, then you have an obligation to do them all. Failure to do them all is not living 'in them'. Agreed?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You should be looking to Moses to find a definition of righteousness under the law!
Ah. You asked for a definition, but you reall only wanted it from one specific prophet. Sure. Deuteronomy 28:1. Note the word "carefully".
Paul, a Pharisee brought up under the law, was well aware that God had spoken these words to the children of lsrael, through Moses:
Leviticus 18:5: 'Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: l am the LORD'.
Paul selectively ignores verses, slices and dices them and pastes them together kind of like the old fashioned ransom note.
The law requires obedience, and life is in the doing of all the law. This is what it means to be righteous under the law. It has nothing to do with faith, because obedience to 613 written commandments does not require faith. If you are taught the commandments, and you live under the law, then you have an obligation to do them all. Failure to do them all is not living 'in them'. Agreed?
Ummmmm you're ignoring Deuteronomy 6:5. Loving with all your heart includes faith/trust/belief. You should know this. Jesus spoke about it.

So Paul is wrong. Faith is part of the law as given by Moses.

Now. Regarding "failure to do all of them is not living 'in them', do I agree?" No.

Living means real-life. In real-life one can only do one thing at a time, one commandment at a time. Living "in them" means going from strength to strength, commandment to commandment. ( Psalms 84:7 ) In this way a person's life is surrounded by the commandments. Surrounded is literally "in them".
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Ah. You asked for a definition, but you reall only wanted it from one specific prophet. Sure. Deuteronomy 28:1. Note the word "carefully".

Paul selectively ignores verses, slices and dices them and pastes them together kind of like the old fashioned ransom note.

Ummmmm you're ignoring Deuteronomy 6:5. Loving with all your heart includes faith/trust/belief. You should know this. Jesus spoke about it.

So Paul is wrong. Faith is part of the law as given by Moses.

Now. Regarding "failure to do all of them is not living 'in them', do I agree?" No.

Living means real-life. In real-life one can only do one thing at a time, one commandment at a time. Living "in them" means going from strength to strength, commandment to commandment. ( Psalms 84:7 ) In this way a person's life is surrounded by the commandments. Surrounded is literally "in them".
To my understanding Deuteronomy 28:1 is exactly what lsrael was called to do, but has failed to do!

Even the love that was demanded has not been shown. If this were not so, then why is lsrael berated by all the prophets? The hope expressed by the prophets always lies in the future repentance of the people. Has that changed, and are the people now achieving the standards set by God?

Psalm 84 says, 'Blessed are they that dwell in thy house'.

Whose house? Who built that house? Was it a man's house built by their own righteousness?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
To my understanding Deuteronomy 28:1 is exactly what lsrael was called to do, but has failed to do!
All Israel? Yes. The righteous remnant? No.

Regardless, righteousness includes "carefully" following the law, so Christianity is not righteous per Moses.

Paul's argument in Galatians 3 fails at multiple points. The parts that are correct prove that Jesus is not needed especially for non-Jews. All they need is faith in Abraham's God, and if they are part of a Jewish household their flesh *must* be circumcised.
Even the love that was demanded has not been shown. If this were not so, then why is lsrael berated by all the prophets? The hope expressed by the prophets always lies in the future repentance of the people. Has that changed, and are the people now achieving the standards set by God?
The prophets also speak about a righteous remnant. You're ignoring scripture again.

The prophets spoke about a specific time, a specific place, they are not speaking about the Jewish people, all of them, currently. We have a lot more resources that those people back then; the benefit of having access to the entire canon of scripture and the persepctive that comes from analyzing what went wrong informs the attitudes and code of conduct of today's Jewish person. You are stuck in the past.
Psalm 84 says, 'Blessed are they that dwell in thy house'.

Whose house? Who built that house? Was it a man's house built by their own righteousness?
The psalm was written by the son's of Korach, so this is probably a later psalm written for the temple. Yes, it was built in righteousness. "Their own righteousness", not sure what that means.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
All Israel? Yes. The righteous remnant? No.

Regardless, righteousness includes "carefully" following the law, so Christianity is not righteous per Moses.

Paul's argument in Galatians 3 fails at multiple points. The parts that are correct prove that Jesus is not needed especially for non-Jews. All they need is faith in Abraham's God, and if they are part of a Jewish household their flesh *must* be circumcised.

The prophets also speak about a righteous remnant. You're ignoring scripture again.

The prophets spoke about a specific time, a specific place, they are not speaking about the Jewish people, all of them, currently. We have a lot more resources that those people back then; the benefit of having access to the entire canon of scripture and the persepctive that comes from analyzing what went wrong informs the attitudes and code of conduct of today's Jewish person. You are stuck in the past.

The psalm was written by the son's of Korach, so this is probably a later psalm written for the temple. Yes, it was built in righteousness. "Their own righteousness", not sure what that means.
You're quite right, Christians acknowledge their sinfulness! There is no turning to Christ as Saviour without repentance being a factor. Repentance is an acceptance that 'our way' is not God's way.

What Christians are saying is that there is only one man that has ever achieved the standards set by God, and He was a Jew, born of a virgin, with the Spirit of God resting upon him. He walked in perfect faithfulness to His Father, as the Son of God.

So, who are the righteous remnant amongst the Jews? Is it not those who acknowledge God as the only Saviour?

What you are saying to me is that you believe you can save yourself by your efforts and good works. But, who is good, apart from God?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You're quite right, Christians acknowledge their sinfulness! There is no turning to Christ as Saviour without repentance being a factor. Repentance is an acceptance that 'our way' is not God's way.
:thumbsup:
What Christians are saying is that there is only one man that has ever achieved the standards set by God, and He was a Jew, born of a virgin, with the Spirit of God resting upon him. He walked in perfect faithfulness to His Father, as the Son of God.
That's what is said. The world is a big place; no one can speak correctly about each and every person on the planet.
So, who are the righteous remnant amongst the Jews? Is it not those who acknowledge God as the only Saviour?
No that's not enough. A murder who acknowledges God as the only savior is still a murderer.

Ezekiel 18 defines the righteous. It includes person to person code of conduct combined with ongoing commitment and implementation of the religious laws given by the LORD.

Who are the righteous remnant? They are scattered in Jewish communities of the various denominations world wide.
What you are saying to me is that you believe you can save yourself by your efforts and good works. But, who is good, apart from God?
Not even close.

What I'm saying is Paul's magic trick in Galatians 3 is smoke and mirrors. He is leading Jews astray, putting stumbling blocks in front of the blind. He is officially off-course on a highway to hell.

I'm also saying that the verses in scripture that require a Jewish person to do all the commandments, statutes, precepts, etc, are real-life instructions that require "care".

Finally, for me personally, like Paul I go back to before the law was given to Moses. For me I go back to the story of Cain. The promise made to Cain might be valid for me too. My effort might be accepted. If so, God will be my savior. No Jesus needed.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
:thumbsup:

That's what is said. The world is a big place; no one can speak correctly about each and every person on the planet.

No that's not enough. A murder who acknowledges God as the only savior is still a murderer.

Ezekiel 18 defines the righteous. It includes person to person code of conduct combined with ongoing commitment and implementation of the religious laws given by the LORD.

Who are the righteous remnant? They are scattered in Jewish communities of the various denominations world wide.

Not even close.

What I'm saying is Paul's magic trick in Galatians 3 is smoke and mirrors. He is leading Jews astray, putting stumbling blocks in front of the blind. He is officially off-course on a highway to hell.

I'm also saying that the verses in scripture that require a Jewish person to do all the commandments, statutes, precepts, etc, are real-life instructions that require "care".

Finally, for me personally, like Paul I go back to before the law was given to Moses. For me I go back to the story of Cain. The promise made to Cain might be valid for me too. My effort might be accepted. If so, God will be my savior. No Jesus needed.
" He is officially off-course on a highway to hell. "

And one's source that Paul is heading on a highway to hell, kindly, elaborate, please. Right?

Regards
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
:thumbsup:

That's what is said. The world is a big place; no one can speak correctly about each and every person on the planet.

No that's not enough. A murder who acknowledges God as the only savior is still a murderer.

Ezekiel 18 defines the righteous. It includes person to person code of conduct combined with ongoing commitment and implementation of the religious laws given by the LORD.

Who are the righteous remnant? They are scattered in Jewish communities of the various denominations world wide.

Not even close.

What I'm saying is Paul's magic trick in Galatians 3 is smoke and mirrors. He is leading Jews astray, putting stumbling blocks in front of the blind. He is officially off-course on a highway to hell.

I'm also saying that the verses in scripture that require a Jewish person to do all the commandments, statutes, precepts, etc, are real-life instructions that require "care".

Finally, for me personally, like Paul I go back to before the law was given to Moses. For me I go back to the story of Cain. The promise made to Cain might be valid for me too. My effort might be accepted. If so, God will be my savior. No Jesus needed.
The only evidence for overcoming sin is in overcoming death, since death is the wages of sin. All in Adam die, and it follows that evidence of a soul not dying needs to be shown to prove sinlessness.

In the NT, we have eyewitness testimony of a man being resurrected from the dead and then ascending to heaven.

If this testimony is true, who else could the person be than the Christ of God, or 'God with us'?
 
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