With bafflement upon bafflement!

[Redemptionsong]

Where is it written about the "final week of the covenant"? Please.

Daniel 9:27. The one week mentioned is a reference to seven years, set apart from the previous 69 heptads, or 483 years. This final seven years is, I understand, not a covenant with God, but with an anti-Christ, and is, therefore a false covenant.

Where in the passage from Daniel am I being anointed? That sounds like something you made up.

You are only anointed as a part of the 'body of Christ'. There is a head, who is anointed first, which is Jesus Christ, and a body, who receive the anointing from the head!

 

[dybmh]

Will Jews be ready?

yes

Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

jews are absolute pros at return, fasting, weeping, and mourning

In the desperate times that are to come, Jews will seek the face of God. If there is repentance and a turning to God (of whom, Christ is the countenance) then God will be gracious to save.

Why did you seperate Jesus from Christ?

 

[dybmh]

So, do you consider yourself a part of Jacob, or of Israel? Can you guarantee that all Jacob will be saved?

I can't guarentee anything, of course. My status is probably Jacob. I have limitations, there's certain things I'd never be able to do even if God commanded it directly to me.

I take inspiration from Genesis 4:7. If I improve, my efforts will be acceptable. If not sin is crouching at the door, but I can master it. If it's true for a murderer, it's certainly true for me.

 

[Redemptionsong]

God often speaks and acts through human beings. He does not need us to be perfect or infallible for this to be true.

To my understanding, the prophets may have been fallible as human beings, but when they prophesied in the Spirit, they prophesied the words of God.

 

[Redemptionsong]

yes

jews are absolute pros at return, fasting, weeping, and mourning

Why did you seperate Jesus from Christ?

Jesus was born under the law, and received his anointing at about thirty years of age.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I can't guarentee anything, of course. My status is probably Jacob. I have limitations, there's certain things I'd never be able to do even if God commanded it directly to me.

I take inspiration from Genesis 4:7. If I improve, my efforts will be acceptable. If not sin is crouching at the door, but I can master it. If it's true for a murderer, it's certainly true for me.

What do you make of Psalms 69?
Matthew 27:34.

 

[dybmh]

a turning to God (of whom, Christ is the countenance)

Why did you seperate Jesus from Christ?

Jesus was born under the law, and received his anointing at about thirty years of age.

So don't turn to Jesus? Turn to Christ? Christ isn't Jesus? I'm more confused now than before?

1 John 2:22?
1 John 5:20?

( also Jesus was not anointed. Paul explains this, Acts of the Apostles 10:37-38. I'm not sure why you keeping speaking falsely. It was a baptism. Anointed, no qualifer is OIL. If one goes with spiritual anointing, the anointing was to "proclaim, proclaim, proclaim" not to rule. Luke 4:16-20 )

 

[dybmh]

What do you make of Psalms 69?

It's a psalm asking for salvation from God. But there's a good chunk in there that I can't stomach. Those are the types of limitations I was talking about. Verses 23-29. I would never ask God to punish people on my behalf. Isolate them, yes. Keep them far from me and others, yes. But wishing retirbution in the harshest language? Not my style.

I did notice the references which would be exciting for Christians. But again, the savior in this psalm is God, and the author is asking for vinegar. That means Jesus would NOT be the LORD or savior in this psalm. Not the best example for you, imo.

I mean, I could have a salad at dinner, oil and vinegar dressing, and recite the psalm in supplication, does that make me the progeny of King David?

 

[Redemptionsong]

So don't turn to Jesus? Turn to Christ? Christ isn't Jesus? I'm more confused now than before?

1 John 2:22?
1 John 5:20?

( also Jesus was not anointed. Paul explains this, Acts of the Apostles 10:37-38. I'm not sure why you keeping speaking falsely. It was a baptism. Anointed, no qualifer is OIL. If one goes with spiritual anointing, the anointing was to "proclaim, proclaim, proclaim" not to rule. Luke 4:16-20 )

Let me be clear. I do believe Jesus is the Christ, the Anointed One.

However, it is important to understand that the man upon whom the Spirit of the LORD rested, was Jesus. That Spirit only came to rest at the time of Jesus' baptism.

The passage from Acts 10:38 says exactly that!
'How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:'

The horn of oil used by Samuel to anoint David is mentioned in 1 Samuel 16:1. God says, 'fill thine horn with oil, and go'.

Samuel uses, l understand, some kind of olive oil, a symbol of the Holy Spirit. In the language of a parable, the earthly oil is the earthly aspect, and holds no spiritual power. The spiritual power comes from heaven, and from God alone.

1 Samuel 16:13. 'Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward'.

What you are arguing is that the oil is the spiritual anointing from God, when, in fact, it is nothing more than the outward symbol of an anointing brought by God.

The question that arises, given this symbolism, is whether or not any other symbols are used of the Holy Spirit. And, yes, scripture provides many, including water, clouds, fire and a dove!

 

[Redemptionsong]

It's a psalm asking for salvation from God. But there's a good chunk in there that I can't stomach. Those are the types of limitations I was talking about. Verses 23-29. I would never ask God to punish people on my behalf. Isolate them, yes. Keep them far from me and others, yes. But wishing retirbution in the harshest language? Not my style.

I did notice the references which would be exciting for Christians. But again, the savior in this psalm is God, and the author is asking for vinegar. That means Jesus would NOT be the LORD or savior in this psalm. Not the best example for you, imo.

I mean, I could have a salad at dinner, oil and vinegar dressing, and recite the psalm in supplication, does that make me the progeny of King David?

And what about the fact that all four Gospels mention the crucifixion and the vinegar?

Or, do you think it was a common Jewish foible to be fixated by vinegar?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I can't guarentee anything, of course. My status is probably Jacob. I have limitations, there's certain things I'd never be able to do even if God commanded it directly to me.

I take inspiration from Genesis 4:7. If I improve, my efforts will be acceptable. If not sin is crouching at the door, but I can master it. If it's true for a murderer, it's certainly true for me.

I find what you say here very interesting.

In 1 Samuel 16:7 it says, 'But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because l have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart'.

The Law of Moses focuses not on the heart of a man but on his deeds. Yet, when Jesus came, Jesus ministered as God, and looked upon the heart of man [Matthew 23:27].

Isaiah 11, which is all about the anointed 'Branch', says, 'and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth:'

I love this passage. It speaks to my heart!

Do you know, much of the conversation we have with people is just a facade. It's just a kind of 'small talk', passing the time of day.
Jesus never indulged in such things. He looked a person in the eye, and then spoke to their hearts!

On the day Jesus does that to you, you will be judged, and your heart made plain.

 

[dybmh]

Let me be clear. I do believe Jesus is the Christ, the Anointed One.

OK. Thank you.

However, it is important to understand that the man upon whom the Spirit of the LORD rested, was Jesus. That Spirit only came to rest at the time of Jesus' baptism.

So, when Joel was talking about return, and you clarified, turn to the countenance of God, I know this seems obvious, Joel couldn't have talking about the ressurection, blood atonement, faith in one who had not yet been sent. Right? So was Joel predicting a future time at or after the crucifixion? Or is there a way to turn to the face of God without Jesus? ( Of course, you know my answer already )

The passage from Acts 10:38 says exactly that!
'How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:'

First he says he was baptised, then what follows is a description of a type of baptism.
Also, a careful reading of the gospel account in John says a spirit, not the Holy Spirit. The english text capitalizes "S" in spirit, but still the word holy is missing, it could be any spirit. Paul believes the spirit is holy, and calls it such, but he's actually misquoting John.
And again, the anointing with holy spirit is defined in Isaiah. The anointing is for the purpose of proclaiming, proclaiming, proclaiming, 3 times. Jesus confirms this in Luke 4. Jesus never claims to have been anointed in any other way. He is being honest.

The horn of oil used by Samuel to anoint David is mentioned in 1 Samuel 16:1. God says, 'fill thine horn with oil, and go'.

Samuel uses, l understand, some kind of olive oil, a symbol of the Holy Spirit. In the language of a parable, the earthly oil is the earthly aspect, and holds no spiritual power. The spiritual power comes from heaven, and from God alone.

1 Samuel 16:13. 'Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward'.

Yes, good.

What you are arguing is that the oil is the spiritual anointing from God, when, in fact, it is nothing more than the outward symbol of an anointing brought by God.

The problem with a spiritual anointing of a leader is that anyone can claim it. We know from Deuteronomy 13 that a false prophet can perform wonders. We know from the story from the exodus that the egyptian sorcerers can perform wonders. Raising oneself from the dead can be an illusion; healing people can be granted by demons and occult practices. What's needed is something holy coming from the temple where God Almighty will ZAP anyone with nefarious intent. So no, no amount of spirit replaces the oil coming from the temple for good reason.

The question that arises, given this symbolism, is whether or not any other symbols are used of the Holy Spirit. And, yes, scripture provides many, including water, clouds, fire and a dove!

Honestly, I doubt it. Let's see, what can I find with a dove in it from the Hebrew bible. I wonder if it's the holy spirit.

Genesis 8 - he story of noah and the ark. he sends away the holy spirit and it returns eventually with an olive branch. Well.... I don't know, he sends away the holy spirit? I think this is supposed to be a bird.

Leviticus, Numbers, doves are sacrificed... that can't be it.

2 Kings 6:25 - dove's dung makes an appearence; that's not it.

Isaiah, he "moans like a dove", thats not it.

Isaiah 60:8 is interesting. This verse could be used to show that doves symbolise spirit. But there's multple doves, which means there's multiple spirits, and then we're back to the same problem, we don't know which spirit descended at the baptism.

Jeremiah 48:28, there he's talking about Moab, and asks them be like doves making nests in holes in the mouth of a cave, or something. That's just plain weird, that's probably not it.

Ezekiel, the fugitive is a like a dove of the mountains? Nope that's not it.

Hosea, Ephraim is a silly dove; nope. There's a dove from Assyria? Nope.

Nahum, they "moan like doves", so no that's not it.

Psalms 55:7: "Oh if I were a dove I'd fly away!" Bye-bye holy spirit. That's not it.

Psalms 68:14 - That's a real actual dove with feathers and everything... nope

Psalms 74:19 "the soul of your dove" ... hmmm, I'll give this a maybe.

The the rest are from song of songs. I haven't read it in a while, perhaps King solomon is referenceing the holy spirit, I don't know.

So there you have it. Maybe one verse in psalms, and maybe 7 verses in the song of songs. But no prophets, no stories of anyone who had "the holy spirit" being in the same place as any doves.

Dove as a symbol for the Holy Spirit is NOT in Hebrew Scripture. It's a foriegn symbol.

 

[Subduction Zone]

OK. Thank you.

So, when Joel was talking about return, and you clarified, turn to the countenance of God, I know this seems obvious, Joel couldn't have talking about the ressurection, blood atonement, faith in one who had not yet been sent. Right? So was Joel predicting a future time at or after the crucifixion? Or is there a way to turn to the face of God without Jesus? ( Of course, you know my answer already )

First he says he was baptised, then what follows is a description of a type of baptism.
Also, a careful reading of the gospel account in John says a spirit, not the Holy Spirit. The english text capitalizes "S" in spirit, but still the word holy is missing, it could be any spirit. Paul believes the spirit is holy, and calls it such, but he's actually misquoting John.
And again, the anointing with holy spirit is defined in Isaiah. The anointing is for the purpose of proclaiming, proclaiming, proclaiming, 3 times. Jesus confirms this in Luke 4. Jesus never claims to have been anointed in any other way. He is being honest.

Yes, good.
The problem with a spiritual anointing of a leader is that anyone can claim it. We know from Deuteronomy 13 that a false prophet can perform wonders. We know from the story from the exodus that the egyptian sorcerers can perform wonders. Raising oneself from the dead can be an illusion; healing people can be granted by demons and occult practices. What's needed is something holy coming from the temple where God Almighty will ZAP anyone with nefarious intent. So no, no amount of spirit replaces the oil coming from the temple for good reason.

Honestly, I doubt it. Let's see, what can I find with a dove in it from the Hebrew bible. I wonder if it's the holy spirit.

Genesis 8 - he story of noah and the ark. he sends away the holy spirit and it returns eventually with an olive branch. Well.... I don't know, he sends away the holy spirit? I think this is supposed to be a bird.

Leviticus, Numbers, doves are sacrificed... that can't be it.

2 Kings 6:25 - dove's dung makes an appearence; that's not it.

Isaiah, he "moans like a dove", thats not it.

Isaiah 60:8 is interesting. This verse could be used to show that doves symbolise spirit. But there's multple doves, which means there's multiple spirits, and then we're back to the same problem, we don't know which spirit descended at the baptism.

Jeremiah 48:28, there he's talking about Moab, and asks them be like doves making nests in holes in the mouth of a cave, or something. That's just plain weird, that's probably not it.

Ezekiel, the fugitive is a like a dove of the mountains? Nope that's not it.

Hosea, Ephraim is a silly dove; nope. There's a dove from Assyria? Nope.

Nahum, they "moan like doves", so no that's not it.

Psalms 55:7: "Oh if I were a dove I'd fly away!" Bye-bye holy spirit. That's not it.

Psalms 68:14 - That's a real actual dove with feathers and everything... nope

Psalms 74:19 "the soul of your dove" ... hmmm, I'll give this a maybe.

The the rest are from song of songs. I haven't read it in a while, perhaps King solomon is referenceing the holy spirit, I don't know.

So there you have it. Maybe one verse in psalms, and maybe 7 verses in the song of songs. But no prophets, no stories of anyone who had "the holy spirit" being in the same place as any doves.

Dove as a symbol for the Holy Spirit is NOT in Hebrew Scripture. It's a foriegn symbol.

One quick correction. The Gospel of John was written long after Paul's works. Paul could not have been misquoting him..

 

[dybmh]

And what about the fact that all four Gospels mention the crucifixion and the vinegar?

I think it's an important part of the story. I thought it was a reference to something Jesus said at the last supper, something about not having more wine until it was complete? And the vinegar completed the ceremony/ritual. Doesn't Jesus have he vinegar and say "It's complete" or something? It's important because it includes the crucifixion as part of the ritual being performed ( i think ) the night before?

Or, do you think it was a common Jewish foible to be fixated by vinegar?

Again, let's pretend that the vinegar at the crucifixion connects Jesus to the psalm. The person in the psalm is not God nor the savior, they are the one being saved. If you want jesus to be spiritually connected to someone desperate o be saved, by all means. It makes perfect sense to me. But that psalm can't be used to show that Jesus is anything other than a desperate man.

 

[dybmh]

One quick correction. The Gospel of John was written long after Paul's works. Paul could not have been misquoting him..

Ah! Thank you. I'll strike that from my list of grievences.

Technically though, my friend thinks that John and Paul's letters are inerrant. So there is a mismatch there.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ah! Thank you. I'll strike that from my list of grievences.

It took me far too many years to learn that Paul's works were the first extent Christian writings. The New Testament is not laid out by order of date written.

 

[dybmh]

In 1 Samuel 16:7 it says, 'But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because l have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart'.

The Law of Moses focuses not on the heart of a man but on his deeds. Yet, when Jesus came, Jesus ministered as God, and looked upon the heart of man [Matthew 23:27].

The heart is mentioned in Moses' Torah. Circumcision of the heart comes from Moses. The law to love neightbor as self is Moses; love God with all your heart is Moses...

Isaiah 11, which is all about the anointed 'Branch', says, 'and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth:'

I love this passage. It speaks to my heart!

Cool! I've read that chapter a few times as part of our discussion.

Do you know, much of the conversation we have with people is just a facade. It's just a kind of 'small talk', passing the time of day.
Jesus never indulged in such things. He looked a person in the eye, and then spoke to their hearts!

Could be. Why not?

On the day Jesus does that to you, you will be judged, and your heart made plain.

And if he blesses me, he will be blessed. On the other hand... Genesis 12:3

 

[Redemptionsong]

The heart is mentioned in Moses' Torah. Circumcision of the heart comes from Moses. The law to love neightbor as self is Moses; love God with all your heart is Moses...

Cool! I've read that chapter a few times as part of our discussion.

Could be. Why not?

And if he blesses me, he will be blessed. On the other hand... Genesis 12:3

Don't be taken in by those who claim that the Pauline writings of the NT are not consistent with the teaching of Jesus.

Jesus makes known the promise of the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. This is the same Spirit that comes from the Father, through the Son, to dwell within the Church.

Here are the scriptures to support this claim:

John 14:26. 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and being all things to your remembrance, whatsoever l have said unto you'.

Luke 24:49 And, behold, l send the promise of the Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high'.

The Holy Spirit, the 'power from on high' can always be distinguished from evil by its motive and intent. Jesus always demonstrated the love of God, and his miracles were always a demonstration of power with compassion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I think it's an important part of the story. I thought it was a reference to something Jesus said at the last supper, something about not having more wine until it was complete? And the vinegar completed the ceremony/ritual. Doesn't Jesus have he vinegar and say "It's complete" or something? It's important because it includes the crucifixion as part of the ritual being performed ( i think ) the night before?

Again, let's pretend that the vinegar at the crucifixion connects Jesus to the psalm. The person in the psalm is not God nor the savior, they are the one being saved. If you want jesus to be spiritually connected to someone desperate o be saved, by all means. It makes perfect sense to me. But that psalm can't be used to show that Jesus is anything other than a desperate man.

The 'vinegar' was not itself the problem, because it was a light wine the Roman soldiers regularly drank. The problem was the mixing of 'gall' with the wine, which was intended to lessen the suffering of a crucified man. This is the mixture Jesus refused to take because it would have clouded his mental faculties.

 

[dybmh]

Don't be taken in by those who claim that the Pauline writings of the NT are not consistent with teaching of Jesus.

OK. I'll keep that in mind.

Jesus makes known the promise of the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. This is the same Spirit that comes from the Father, through the Son, to dwell within the Church.

Here are the scriptures to support this claim:

John 14:26. 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and being all things to your remembrance, whatsoever l have said unto you'.

OK, that's super helpful. Thanks.

The Holy Spirit, the 'power from on high' can always be distinguished from evil by its motive and intent.

A helping friendly false prophet who has the best intentions is still prohibited. Deuteronomy 13.

If Satan believes it would be in everyone's best interest to worship 2 gods, one on heaven, one on earth, and brings miracles to prove it, is that the Holy Spirit?

Certainly good intentions are not the only factor?

Jesus always demonstrated the love of God, and his miracles were always a demonstration of power with compassion.

Ah! I object, your honor.

The fig tree, the miracle of the fig tree was not "love" nor "compassion" it was "power" and "vengeance".

Matthew 21:18-19​

18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. 19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
​

Poor little fig tree. What did it do wrong? Jesus could have made it bloom. Instead he took out his frustration on the tree. No one would eat of it ever again. That's called "scorched earth" strategy.

A scorched-earth policy is a military strategy that aims to destroy anything that might be useful to the enemy.​

Scorched earth - Wikipedia
​

So no, not all his miracles demonstrated love and compassion.

Then later in Acts there's this: Ananias and Sapphira - Wikipedia. Not love, nor compassion by "the comforter" aka "Jesus in the clouds".