Without God(s), what is the point?!

[muhammad_isa]

..one can argue that it is better if you don't, because then you are good because you simply feel it is right rather than because you desire reward or fear punishment.

Well, that's the whole point .. it is all about what you feel is right..

Some people are capitalists, and feel that they work hard and shouldn't have to pay high taxes, while lazy people don't work etc.

Naturally, those that are homeless and poor don't tend to feel that.
Bank accounts are transient .. they do not follow us into our graves.

 

[KWED]

Well, that's the whole point .. it is all about what you feel is right..

Some people are capitalists, and feel that they work hard and shouldn't have to pay high taxes, while lazy people don't work etc.

Naturally, those that are homeless and poor don't tend to feel that.
Bank accounts are transient .. they do not follow us into our graves.

You miss the point.
It's not about the fact that people behave differently and have different values.
It is about the fact that belief in god is not required in order to do good, and that doing good because you are told to isn't really "doing good" in a moral sense.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is about the fact that belief in god is not required in order to do good..

That is what you perceive.
That is because you do not equate "what is good" with a particular religion.

..and every person derives their values from somewhere, be it scriptural or otherwise.
If one believes in God, a person tries to follow it.
Yes, God teaches us what is good for ourselves, our communities and the whole human race.
..but we all fall short.
Claiming that we can do good without believing really means that you question the validity of a particular creed, and that you can decide for yourself what is "good".

It is all about intention. We can fool ourselves into thinking that we do something out of love for others, with no ulterior motives etc.
However, believer or unbeliever, that is not so easy to do .. it might sound it .. but it isn't.

Faith can be strengthening. We all need faith in something..
Faith in human nature?
Me .. not so much .. not in the world that I live in.
No money, no life .. hmmm.

 

[KWED]

That is what you perceive.
That is because you do not equate "what is good" with a particular religion.

Not so.
Donating charity to those in need is considered a "good deed" by me and by your (and other) religion.
It is not "my perception". It is a simple statement of fact.

..and every person derives their values from somewhere, be it scriptural or otherwise.
If one believes in God, a person tries to follow it.
Yes, God teaches us what is good for ourselves, our communities and the whole human race.
..but we all fall short.
Claiming that we can do good without believing really means that you question the validity of a particular creed, and that you can decide for yourself what is "good".

"Being good" does not require belief in god. Whether a particular belief or god is true or not is irrelevant to that fact.

It is all about intention. We can fool ourselves into thinking that we do something out of love for others, with no ulterior motives etc.
However, believer or unbeliever, that is not so easy to do .. it might sound it .. but it isn't.

Exactly. The religionist may tell themselves that they are doing good purely from the kindness of their heart, but the carrot and stick is always there. For the atheist, there is no carrot or stick.

Faith can be strengthening.

It can also weaken and cause harm. It all depends what the belief is.

We all need faith in something..

Not really, but I understand that some feel the need for it. However, it often seems misplaced. I would suggest that assessing options on the basis of evidence and reason is a better approach. If someone tells me something (a politician, for instance), I do not assume they are either correct or honest unless I have previous experience to suggest that it is likely to be the case.

Faith in human nature?

We don't need "faith" in human nature. We can observe it.
Also, the term is somewhat misleading as most people simply display the nature of the family/society they were raised/live in. But humans do have an innate sense of empathy and altruism, although this can be overridden by ideology.

Me .. not so much .. not in the world that I live in.
No money, no life .. hmmm.

Well, you have faith in a particular version of god, yet that god doesn't seem to be helping you much, rather the opposite.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not so.
Donating charity to those in need is considered a "good deed" by me and by your (and other) religion.

That is just one aspect out of many..

"Being good" does not require belief in god. Whether a particular belief or god is true or not is irrelevant to that fact.

As above..

For the atheist, there is no carrot or stick.

No. No fear of God or hope in His mercy.
So one cannot be motivated to act "for the sake of God"
..must be some other motivation, whatever that may be.

I would suggest that assessing options on the basis of evidence and reason is a better approach..

It is arrogant to suggest that all believers don't question their faith and why they believe what they believe.

Well, you have faith in a particular version of god, yet that god doesn't seem to be helping you much, rather the opposite.

No. It is my fault. I'm not doing what I should be doing.
'satan' tells me "don't bother doing this or that", and I make excuses for myself, and I am the loser.

satan becomes the companion of the loner..

 

[KWED]

That is just one aspect out of many..

Yes, and?

No. No fear of God or hope in His mercy.

As I said, the religionist always has that behind their actions.

So one cannot be motivated to act "for the sake of God"
..must be some other motivation, whatever that may be.

Yes. That motivation is to help those less fortunate. No divine threat or reward needed. Just innate human empathy and altruism.
You are simply repeating my argument.

It is arrogant to suggest that all believers don't question their faith and why they believe what they believe.

Good job I didn't suggest that. And I think "inaccurate" would be a better term than "arrogant".

No. It is my fault. I'm not doing what I should be doing.
'satan' tells me "don't bother doing this or that", and I make excuses for myself, and I am the loser.

satan becomes the companion of the loner..

Another advantage of being an atheist. No "satan" to tell you to do bad stuff.
But do you really think god punishes you for being misguided by satan? After all, it is what Allah created him to do.
Also, I guess it could be god misguiding you. In the Quran he clearly says that he misguides people. In which case it is not your fault. How could you possibly avoid god's plan?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But do you really think god punishes you for being misguided by satan?

Yes, I do. He forgives whomsoever He wills and punishes whomsoever He wills..
..bearing in mind that God is not a person with "a soul" .. it is a lot more subtle than that.
It is easy to comprehend that if we put our hand in the fire, we will most likely suffer because of it.
It is possible to suffer in this life due to our own deeds, but it can also be through other people's deeds, naturally.

Also, I guess it could be god misguiding you. In the Quran he clearly says that he misguides people. In which case it is not your fault. How could you possibly avoid god's plan?

No, not in this case. If I don't get up in the morning and pray, for example, I cannot blame it on anything else but my own laziness and lack of motivation.
That is perhaps a bit simplistic, but you get my drift.

 

[KWED]

Yes, I do. He forgives whomsoever He wills and punishes whomsoever He wills..

So it's an arbitrary thing rather than specific cause and effect.

It is easy to comprehend that if we put our hand in the fire, we will most likely suffer because of it.

But if someone hands you a spanner that has been in a fire and says "hold this", it is their fault not yours that you get burned.

It is possible to suffer in this life due to our own deeds, but it can also be through other people's deeds, naturally.

That's obvious if life is just natural cause and effect, but if god is punishing, why would he punish you for someone else's deeds?

No, not in this case. If I don't get up in the morning and pray, for example, I cannot blame it on anything else but my own laziness and lack of motivation.

Yes you can, if your lack of motivation is caused by Allah or Satan misguiding you - which we know they do, because the Quran says they do.
And how are you to know it it is Allah misguiding you or just a natural apathy for something you don't really see the need for? If Allah is going to misguide you he isn't going to advertise that it is him doing it, is he?

 

[muhammad_isa]

And how are you to know it it is Allah misguiding you or just a natural apathy for something you don't really see the need for? If Allah is going to misguide you he isn't going to advertise that it is him doing it, is he?

That's nonsense, and you know it.

I do see the need for it. God has no need of my prayers .. but I do.
I have the experience of a strong faith in the past.

We can blame others [ or "satan" ] as much as we like .. it doesn't change anything.
I know what I should be doing, but I am allowing myself to stagnate. It's like a slow death.

Admittedly, I can't do much about my housing problems .. most poor people can't.
Not many people want to rent to the poor, especially these days.

 

[KWED]

That's nonsense, and you know it.

No I don't. It is a logical conclusion based on the contents of the Quran.

I do see the need for it. God has no need of my prayers .. but I do.
I have the experience of a strong faith in the past.

In which case, what is stopping you? Must be Allah or Satan. In either case, you shouldn't be blamed for it.

We can blame others [ or "satan" ] as much as we like .. it doesn't change anything.
I know what I should be doing, but I am allowing myself to stagnate. It's like a slow death.

It does rather sound like there is something else at work here other than just your own laziness. Jinn, perhaps?

Admittedly, I can't do much about my housing problems .. most poor people can't.
Not many people want to rent to the poor, especially these days.

But why are you struggling in the first place? In the Quran, Allah says that he will provide for those who follow him? Surely he can manage the basics for you? It doesn't seem fair that he provides me with more than I need yet I continually reject him (and yes, I know about the torment of the eternal fire with hooks and boiling metal and stuff, but I might grasp his rope before its too late, and I'll be in paradise. Win/win!)

 

[muhammad_isa]

It doesn't seem fair that he provides me with more than I need yet I continually reject him..

Again, as you well know, this life is a test.
It is a prison for the sincere believer, and a (potential) paradise for the unbeliever.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So, we can agree that your claim that there are people who "no human loves" is false

If you aren't doing anything for the individual claiming to love them is meaningless.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Oh, the irony of someone who regularly makes stuff up calling verifiable facts "lies".

It is illegal to have an abortion after 23 weeks if it is not a medical necessity. That is why they only make up 0.1% of all abortions.
Abortion statistics, England and Wales: 2020
What is the source of your claim, www.myarse.com?

Wrong.
States that allow for late-term abortions with no state-imposed thresholds are Alaska, Colorado, District of Columbia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, and Vermont.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This is a sad way to live.

Fortunately you don't have to because God is real and loves you.

 

[Ashoka]

Fortunately you don't have to because God is real and loves you.

No thanks.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, Hitler was a human made in God's image, capable of great good or great evil and an eternal soul like everyone.
A dog has no moral compass and cannot be liable for his actions or eternally rewarded. He just goes back to the dirt.

If you think that dogs have no moral compass, you must not have ever spent much time around dogs (or not paid much attention when you did).

 

[Bird123]

I'm struggling to understand the purpose of life without God. Atheists, do you simply chase happiness and contentment with your days? Is that all there is without God?
When I was a Christian , I served a higher power and had a purpose. My actions and thoughts affected the metaphysical world. My purpose was to serve Jesus Christ and help reclaim the world for Him. Even after letting go of Christianity, still retaining some belief in God and karma, I served a higher purpose. The reclamation of this world for the benevolent yet not omnipotent God.
Now as I question my belief in God altogether, I am left wondering what my purpose would be without serving a god. My whole life revolved around my spiritual practice, and I am losing it. I don't see the point in life without a god. So perhaps I will be intellectually dishonest to myself and return to Christianity. Or perhaps many other things. Can become a polytheist or animist. Those would give me purpose too I think.
But if I were atheist, I fail to see how I would carry on. God has been my crutch since forever. Knowing that sky daddy is watching over me and taking care of me and has a plan for me is a powerful, motivating belief. Why do you think so many fail to ever let the God belief go?
Debate point: there is no point in life without God.
Someone told me that the point is to leave the world better than you left it for future generations. Perhaps that's true. But you're dead and unconscious, so so what. I'm just negative maybe.

The preacher of Ecclesiastes questioned the point of life. I resonate with him.
Maybe I just need to accept that I can live a simple life. No need for a higher grand purpose. Maybe finding contentment in simplicity is the point of life.

You do not Understand. No one is serving God!!! It has never ever been about serving or believing.

Worry not!! Eternity has purpose!!

Look back on your life. What have you really been doing?
You have been learning and growing in wisdom and knowledge all your life regardless of anything you believed along the way.

God's Greatest moment is when that light bulb goes off over one of His children's head and they Understand.
This can be about any subject. Perhaps, in your case, it's when you started to realize all those holy books did not add up and started to question and think for yourself.

Choose a direction and move forward. If you can not decide, take a generic course. So many in this world need help. Further, there are so many who deem there is not enough Love in their lives. Something as small as a smile and a kind word can change a life forever. Couple that with help and you will gain a friend forever. With so many connections you can make, you will be way too busy to ever think you have no purpose.

Worry not!! You are Eternal regardless or your choices or beliefs. There is just too much for you to do that it could never be accomplished in one mere lifetime.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Wildswanderer]

If you think that dogs have no moral compass, you must not have ever spent much time around dogs (or not paid much attention when you did).

I have had dogs almost my entire life.
And yes I pay attention to them.

 

[KWED]

Again, as you well know, this life is a test.

No. I have repeatedly explained why life cannot be a test.
A test is an exercise to determine previously unknown information about something. There are no unknowns for god. Therefore no test. QED.
Also, a person's reaction to any event is limited to that one response god already knows they will have, so is doubly meaningless.

It is a prison for the sincere believer, and a (potential) paradise for the unbeliever.

Nonsense. Many millions of non-Muslims endure great suffering and loss while many Muslims live lives of comfort and safety.
It is mostly determined by the lottery of birth. Your explanation is merely an excuse to placate those believers who question why god appears to be punishing them despite their wholehearted worship and adherence to the rules.
It's all part religion's control system for the masses. "You may have a terrible life now, but keep your head down, follow the rules, don't cause trouble, and you'll have an eternity of paradise." It is so obvious that it is a wonder that anyone falls for it!

The system you describe makes no sense and would be the creation of an idiot.

 

[KWED]

If you aren't doing anything for the individual claiming to love them is meaningless.

I have just explained to you how I am doing something positive for every person on the planet on a daily basis. I am literally helping them in a practical way, unlike your god who only causes more suffering.
What is it with you religious apologists, just ignoring responses that you don't like?