Without God(s), what is the point?!

[KWED]

Wrong.
States that allow for late-term abortions with no state-imposed thresholds are Alaska, Colorado, District of Columbia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, and Vermont.

Why are you citing US states when I gave you data from the UK, where abortion after 24 weeks is only through medical necessity?

However, a quick look at the US data shows basically the same thing.
In the most recent available data (2019) there were 1270 abortions in Alaska. Of those, only one was after 24 weeks. That's less than 0.1%. Between 2015 and 2018 there were none. How you know that this one late-stage termination was elective rather than due to medical necessity is a mystery as I can't find any reference to that. Perhaps you could provide the link?

 

[KWED]

Fortunately you don't have to because God is real and loves you.

No, it is sad that you believe that only following a particular version of ancient superstition gives your life meaning.
It's also pretty arrogant to claim that your life has meaning while billions of others' don't, despite all the obvious meaning in their lives. But that's Abrahamic religions for you. It's all about pride and self-interest.

 

[KWED]

I have had dogs almost my entire life.
And yes I pay attention to them.

Perhaps you don't recognise a naturally developed sense of morality, not having one yourself?

 

[muhammad_isa]

No. I have repeatedly explained why life cannot be a test.
A test is an exercise to determine previously unknown information about something. There are no unknowns for god. Therefore no test. QED.
Also, a person's reaction to any event is limited to that one response god already knows they will have, so is doubly meaningless.

Not that again ..
Our perception of the nature of the future can cause one to think that if it can be known [ by an agent in another time frame ], that we aren't really making a choice.
It is purely a human perception.
The test is very real .. just like pleasure and pain are real.

Nonsense. Many millions of non-Muslims endure great suffering and loss while many Muslims live lives of comfort and safety.

You miss the point. Sincere believers are not allowed to participate in the modern financial system. "Muslims" don't all follow what they should be following, just as many Christians don't go to church etc.

It's all part religion's control system for the masses. "You may have a terrible life now, but keep your head down, follow the rules, don't cause trouble, and you'll have an eternity of paradise." It is so obvious that it is a wonder that anyone falls for it!

That is the difference between faith and disbelief.

The system you describe makes no sense and would be the creation of an idiot.

In this case, we could say that God has caused you to be spiritually blind.
i.e. your arrogance is leading you astray.

Almighty God is wiser than you, but you don't perceive.

 

[KWED]

Our perception of the nature of the future can cause one to think that if it can be known [ by an agent in another time frame ], that we aren't really making a choice.
It is purely a human perception.

What other perception is there?

The test is very real .. just like pleasure and pain are real.

I just explained why the idea of a "test" is incoherent. Simply repeating "But life is a test!" is not a reasonable response.

You miss the point. Sincere believers are not allowed to participate in the modern financial system.

1. Yes they are. They are only forbidden from paying or earning interest (riba).
2. How does that relate to my point?

"Muslims" don't all follow what they should be following, just as many Christians don't go to church etc.

So are you claiming that any Muslim who has a good life, is safe, healthy and comfortable, is not a "sincere believer"?
Classic No True Scotsman

That is the difference between faith and disbelief.

No. It is an explanation for why religion is so attractive to both rulers and their subjects. As Seneca said "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful"

In this case, we could say that God has caused you to be spiritually blind.

1. Why would he do that when he created me only top worship him?
2. I am therefore not responsible for my disbelief and should not be punished for it.

i.e. your arrogance is leading you astray.

What "arrogance"? You just said it was Allah.

Almighty God is wiser than you, but you don't perceive.

He has not done anything to make me think he is wise. Most of it seems pretty ill-judged or irrational.
Why do you think that god is wiser than me?

 

[Wildswanderer]

No, it is sad that you believe that only following a particular version of ancient superstition gives your life meaning.
It's also pretty arrogant to claim that your life has meaning while billions of others' don't, despite all the obvious meaning in their lives. But that's Abrahamic religions for you. It's all about pride and self-interest.

Actually it's the opposite of pride. Pride says "I can save myself, I don't need any god."

 

[Wildswanderer]

Perhaps you don't recognise a naturally developed sense of morality, not having one yourself?

Why are you resorting to insults?
Almost every human has some sort of moral compass. Some of them are pretty broken, however. Dogs just do what they do out of instinct. They can't reason enough to understand objective morality.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I have just explained to you how I am doing something positive for every person on the planet on a daily basis. I am literally helping them in a practical way, unlike your god who only causes more suffering.
What is it with you religious apologists, just ignoring responses that you don't like?

I'm sure the children dying on a garbage heap and stealing food to survive another day appreciate your great sacrifice for them. Nope, nothing you are doing is going to actually affect their lives in any way.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I'm struggling to understand the purpose of life without God. Atheists, do you simply chase happiness and contentment with your days? Is that all there is without God?

I’m a theist and I wonder what the purpose of God is.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So are you claiming that any Muslim who has a good life, is safe, healthy and comfortable, is not a "sincere believer"?

What is a "good life" ?
Most people need money to live..
Isn't it strange that many Muslim countries are poor [ so-called third world countries ], not including the non-war-torn oil-rich countries of course?

You can always find an exception to the rule..
i.e. a rich person who follows their religion to the letter.

However, there are not many of those

" For the rich person to enter heaven is like the camel passing through the eye of a needle" - Jesus Christ.

As many Christians put it .. you can't serve two masters.
i.e. money and God.

 

[KWED]

Actually it's the opposite of pride. Pride says "I can save myself, I don't need any god."

No, that is nonsensical.
If you don't believe in the god, the concept of "being saved" is meaningless.
Believing that you are somehow special, better than other species, that god has reserved a special place for you in paradise, etc is the hight of arrogance and pride.
Then there is the issue of doing good deeds out of self interest rather than just to help others.
"Selfish pride" describes your beliefs pretty well.

 

[muhammad_isa]

1. Why would he do that when he created me only top worship him?

God is not a person.
The concept of God is a lot more subtle .. a spiritual concept.
We are all "of God" .. yet we have been given freedom to believe or disbelieve i.e. act independently

The concept of God sending somebody astray is therefore not straightforward. It is to do with the nature of our souls.

 

[KWED]

Why are you resorting to insults?

Huh? That is what you believe. You claim that your morality is objective and divinely delivered. Therefore it cannot be naturally developed.

Almost every human has some sort of moral compass. Some of them are pretty broken, however.

Indeed. A moral framework based on the beliefs and customs of the Ancient Near East is hardly likely to be fit for purpose today.

Dogs just do what they do out of instinct. They can't reason enough to understand objective morality.

Actually, studies have shown that dogs do have a sense of morality.
The Ethical Dog
https://phys.org/news/2017-02-dogs-monkeys-human-like-morality.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...367214-ccb3-11e3-95f7-7ecdde72d2ea_story.html
Animals Are Moral Creatures, Scientist Argues

 

[KWED]

I'm sure the children dying on a garbage heap and stealing food to survive another day appreciate your great sacrifice for them. Nope, nothing you are doing is going to actually affect their lives in any way.

What are you on about?

You claimed (without foundation) that you can only love someone if you do something for them (Jesus never mentioned that).
I showed you that I am doing something positive and practical for everyone on the planet.
Now you are saying "Oh, but you must physically help people in person before you can love them", which is utter nonsense. I love my parents but for a few years I did literally nothing to help them. In fact, I made life harder for them. So according to your argument, I didn't love them.

As usual, you have tangled yourself up in knots.

 

[KWED]

What is a "good life" ?

One where they aren't subject to suffering, help others, and avoid causing harm.
What do you think a "good life" is? Don't tell me, it requires following religions dogma first and foremost?

Most people need money to live..

Yes. And?

Isn't it strange that many Muslim countries are poor [ so-called third world countries ], not including the non-war-torn oil-rich countries of course?

Not really strange. There are fairly clear reasons for the current state of mist countries.
However, it is strange in the context of the Quran saying that Allah will provide for believers. It is clear that he very often doesn't. Which leads us back to the issue of them not being "true Muslims". It seems that many of the issues faced by religionists are blamed on not following the religion properly rather than obvious socio-economic-political reasons.

You can always find an exception to the rule..
i.e. a rich person who follows their religion to the letter.

Yes. So, you didn't answer my question.
Can a Muslim who has a good life, is safe, healthy and comfortable, also be a "sincere believer"?

However, there are not many of those

According to whom?

" For the rich person to enter heaven is like the camel passing through the eye of a needle" - Jesus Christ.

Always wondered about that one. Once you are dead and have left this world, you are no longer rich because, as they say "you can't take it with you". Therefore Jesus' claim makes no sense. Every soul is penniless. They money now belongs to their heirs.

As many Christians put it .. you can't serve two masters.
i.e. money and God.

So you are saying that anyone with a successful, well payed career is necessarily not a "true believer".
Also, don't see why not. I have a job while being being in postgrad education. I don't see why earning a decent living and worshiping god are incompatible.

 

[KWED]

God is not a person.

Never claimed he is. He is god. An immaterial, supernatural being.

We are all "of God" .. yet we have been given freedom to believe or disbelieve i.e. act independently

But the Quran says that Allah misguides people, and you said he had made me spiritually blind. Therefore he is interfering in our ability to make choices.

The concept of God sending somebody astray is therefore not straightforward. It is to do with the nature of our souls.

The nature of our soul is how god created it.
Remember that in the Quran he explicitly states that he has created some of mankind for hell. How can such people have the freedom to believe? If they did, they would not go to hell and it would contradict god's will and creation.

I understand that you may have realised one of the fatal flaws in Islam, but simply saying "Oh, but it's not straightforward!" does not resolve it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you are saying that anyone with a successful, well payed career is necessarily not a "true believer".

You are very good at twisting people's words.
I haven't mentioned anything about incomes.

Money is for spending .. if people hold big bank accounts [ or invest it in property or interest bearing schemes etc. ] they are deemed rich.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Remember that in the Quran he explicitly states that he has created some of mankind for hell. How can such people have the freedom to believe? If they did, they would not go to hell and it would contradict god's will and creation.

That's just word-games..

Almighty God has created human beings with free-will.
He knows that some will be righteous and some not.
It is not that He created a specific person to go to hell .. that contradicts having free-will.

It is A GIVEN that we have free-will.
Anything else, such as to do with qadr and the like, must be interpreted in that light .. otherwise the interpretation is most surely wrong !

 

[Wildswanderer]

You claimed (without foundation) that you can only love someone if you do something for them (Jesus never mentioned that).

The Bible repeatedly defines love by its actions.

1 Corinthians 13:4–8a Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
The Bible says that God was motivated by love to save the world (John 3:16). God’s love is best seen in the sacrifice of Christ on our behalf. (1 John 4:9).
“See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!” (1 John 3:1)

We are to love the family of God (1 Peter 2:17). We are to love our enemies— to actively seek what is best for them (Matthew 5:44). Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church (Ephesians 5:25).

 

[Wildswanderer]

No, that is nonsensical.
If you don't believe in the god, the concept of "being saved" is meaningless.
Believing that you are somehow special, better than other species, that god has reserved a special place for you in paradise, etc is the hight of arrogance and pride.
Then there is the issue of doing good deeds out of self interest rather than just to help others.
"Selfish pride" describes your beliefs pretty well.

You are showing your ignorance of Christianity.