Without God(s), what is the point?!

[Sheldon]

Oh, so we weren't made in his "spiritual image" then?
You need to make your mind up.

So he imagines a deity with a comparable spiritual image to Hitler then?

 

[muhammad_isa]

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). He asserted that not even something as small as an accent mark in the written law would be changed until heaven and earth pass away (verse 18)

Wow .. how amazing .. we agree on something.

 

[Sheldon]

Sometimes I wish it were true.
But alas, I don't think that I can get away with treating others badly, while I profit through immorality.

Why would you only care how you treat others, if a deity you imagine to be real is watching?

It's always a little sad to hear theists assert their moral are contingent on a delusion, and not at all altruistic.

 

[Sheldon]

Wow .. how amazing .. we agree on something.

Well in my case I only assert the biblical claim to contradict that of @Wildswanderer , beyond that I lend no more credence to the quote than I do the spells in Harry Potter books.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why would you only care how you treat others, if a deity you imagine to be real is watching?

I don't.
I don't claim to be perfect. That is why I'm concerned.

You, apparently don't have to be concerned.
You are probably perfect, and will not die.

 

[KWED]

Of course. Funny how your comprehension is different from mine...

I think we have established that.
Allah repeatedly says he misguides people, in the context of whether they believe or disbelieve.
I take that to mean that Allah misguides people, in the context of whether they believe or disbelieve.
You take that to mean that Allah does not misguide people, in the context of whether they believe or disbelieve.
You do the math.

Ah, of course.
Allah is guiding me aright, and sending you astray.

Well, that's what he says.

However, that wouldn't happen unless there is something "dark" inside your "heart".

A couple of problems here.
1. If I already disbelieve of my own accord, why does he need to misguide me. Surely he would want to guide me, given that he only created me to worship him (and created me with a "dark heart, for some reason).
It is irrational to not help the ones who need help while helping those who are already believers.
It's like a hospital with a sign saying "Healthy People Only".

2. What is "dark" in my heart? The need for convincing evidence before I accept extraordinary claims? For some people it might be an existing belief in a different religion. Are you really claiming that non-Muslims have something "dark in their hearts"? (so we're back to the old "us and them", dehumanise the out-group).

Next you will be telling me that the verse "the sun set in a muddy spring" means that Allah doesn't know that the sun doesn't fall out of the sky into a pool of water.

More question begging. You are assuming that whoever wrote the Quran had a good knowledge of astronomy so the passage must therefore be figurative, but there are other passages in the Quran that suggest otherwise.
BTW, I'm not claiming that that passage is necessarily literal, but it does suggest a primitive understanding of the solar system.

..so why does Allah the Almighty refer to Himself as "we" ?

It is a term known as "the royal we" or "majestic plural. Nothing unusual about that.
And of course, the Bible does the same, and the Quran draws heavily on the Bible.

Yes .. there is only ONE god.

So god is an individual. (Individual just means "one" or "single")

Only One worthy of worship.

Are there other gods unworthy or worship?

If you worship the creation eg. sun, moon or man, cow etc, that is shirk

Also giving god companions or equals (Mayne like saying he is not an individual) is shirk.

OK .. so what is this "immaterial being" comprised of .. I mean is God just the same as a person, but without a body?
..because that is how it seems your mind conceives..

I sense an element of projection here.
The Quran and sunnah repeatedly give god human qualities, so you naturally have that impression. However, my understanding is not bound by preconception like that. Remember that I don't believe in gods so my conception of god comes from the context of the religion I am discussing.

i.e. God is just a made-up being corresponding to a human without a body

A human without a body is an oxymoron.

 

[KWED]

Why would you only care how you treat others, if a deity you imagine to be real is watching?

It's always a little sad to hear theists assert their moral are contingent on a delusion, and not at all altruistic.

Indeed. The "I would be a murdering rapist if god wasn't stopping me" claim is always somewhat worrying.

And even though they claim their good deeds are just as altruistic as those by an atheist, the mask slips when they admit that they wouldn't care about others if there was no god.

 

[KWED]

I don't.
I don't claim to be perfect. That is why I'm concerned.

You suggested that without god, you would treat others badly and behave immorally.
You don't have to be "perfect" to treat others well and not behave immorally. You just have to be a normal human being. Most of us don't find it any kind of effort at all.
And given the experience from those who have lost their faith, you wouldn't either. You would probably continue behaving pretty much as you are, but maybe with less of the intolerance. You might even feel better about yourself. Many ex-religionists do.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Well @Wildswanderer already stated the deity he imagined to be real has a comparable image to Hitler. Though he's remained reticent about his claim that Hitler was better than dog, without offering anything objective or any practical explanation of why he made this bizarre assertion.

Nope that's backwards. Hitler like everyone was made in God's image. God wasn't made in our image.

 

[Wildswanderer]

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). He asserted that not even something as small as an accent mark in the written law would be changed until heaven and earth pass away (verse 18)

Nope... until all was fulfilled. Which happened on the cross.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The law is no more because everything was accomplished by Jesus' death and Resurrection.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You suggested that without god, you would treat others badly and behave immorally.

That is insulting.
I never claimed any such thing.
That is pure atheist rhetoric.

 

[muhammad_isa]

2. What is "dark" in my heart?

Rebellion against being "told what to do", and proudly thinking that you are smart, whilst religious people just blindly follow.
..just examples .. and not limited to.

Are you really claiming that non-Muslims have something "dark in their hearts"?

I didn't say that .. so no.

It is a term known as "the royal we" or "majestic plural. Nothing unusual about that.

No. It is about the use of language.
One God. One worthy of worship.
..as opposed to polytheism.
It says nothing about THE NATURE of God, other than you shouldn't join others alongside Him / Them.

Also giving god companions or equals (Mayne like saying he is not an individual) is shirk.

Everything is judged by intention.
God knows who is guilty of shirk.
Atheists must be by definition.

..Remember that I don't believe in gods so my conception of god comes from the context of the religion I am discussing.

Your conception of God is not mine.
I think that I'm in a better position than you to have a more accurate description of Islam.
You are an atheist .. satan pretends to be an atheist, as he wishes to mislead .. but really he knows that God exists.

 

[KWED]

Nope that's backwards. Hitler like everyone was made in God's image. God wasn't made in our image.

Yes. So god and Hitler are essentially the same.

 

[KWED]

Nope... until all was fulfilled. Which happened on the cross.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The law is no more because everything was accomplished by Jesus' death and Resurrection.

What do you mean by "everything was accomplished"?

 

[KWED]

That is insulting.
I never claimed any such thing.

In response to the statement...
"Without God you are a nothing made for no reason and going nowhere but in the dirt."
You said
"Sometimes I wish it were true. But alas, I don't think that I can get away with treating others badly, while I profit through immorality."

Words have meanings and implications. The clear implication of your reply is that without god, you think you would be treating others badly and behaving immorally.
If you intended to say something different, please elaborate.

That is pure atheist rhetoric.

What is "atheist rhetoric"?

 

[KWED]

Rebellion against being "told what to do",

What's wrong with that? Muhammad rebelled against being told not to blaspheme against the gods. Nelson Mandela rebelled against being told what to do by the apartheid government. The founding fathers rebelled against being told what to do by King George. Why would that mean there is something "dark in their hearts"?

and proudly thinking that you are smart,

I have a bunch of dire and post grad certificates that suggest I'm not too shabby. And I win a few pub quizzes.

whilst religious people just blindly follow.

Not all, but many do. It's kinda the point of religion. You show the tendency yourself.

..just examples .. and not limited to.

Again, why does having done well in further education and acknowledging the dogmatic nature of religion mean I have a "dark heart". Are you just using it to refer to someone who challenges your position?

I didn't say that .. so no.

You said that Allah would't send me astray if I didn't have a "dark heart". So presumably everyone Allah sends astray already has a "dark heart".
I will change it to "So you believe that anyone who actively rejects Islam has a dark heart".
Better?

No. It is about the use of language.

What do you think I was talking about when I said "It is a term known as "the royal we" or "majestic plural."?

One God. One worthy of worship.
..as opposed to polytheism.
It says nothing about THE NATURE of God, other than you shouldn't join others alongside Him / Them.

You've lost me now.
You asked why Allah refers to himself as "we" after I showed that the Quran refers to Allah as an individual, whereas you claims Allah isn't an individual.

Everything is judged by intention.

So atheists are off the hook because they don't "intend" to reject Allah because you can't reject something that does not exist.

God knows who is guilty of shirk.
Atheists must be by definition.

I suggest you look into the meaning of "shirk". Atheists are definitely not guilty, by definition.
(To save to the bother, I'll tell you. Shirk literally means associating others with god and includes any form of worship for or attributing divine power to any other being, person or object. It does not include disbelief in all gods)

Your conception of God is not mine.

As I said, I don't have a conception of god. I am an atheist. I simply assume others' conceptions when discussing their version of god.
My conception of the god of Islam comes from reading the Quran and sunnah, not from your opinions about it.

I think that I'm in a better position than you to have a more accurate description of Islam.

It has already been demonstrated that that is not the case (you didn't even know what shirk is). Simply being a Muslim doesn't mean you have a detailed knowledge of Islamic scripture. Millions of Muslims have never even read the Quran.

You are an atheist .. satan pretends to be an atheist, as he wishes to mislead .. but really he knows that God exists.

Are you saying that I am satan and just pretending to be an atheist? The really funny thing is that you are not joking!

Also, Allah misleads people so is he satan pretending to be a Muslim?

 

[muhammad_isa]

In response to the statement...
"Without God you are a nothing made for no reason and going nowhere but in the dirt."
You said
"Sometimes I wish it were true. But alas, I don't think that I can get away with treating others badly, while I profit through immorality."

Words have meanings and implications. The clear implication of your reply is that without god, you think you would be treating others badly and behaving immorally.

No. That is what you WANT it to mean.
We all treat others badly .. unless of course you think that you are a saint in this respect.

..so I was saying that I wished it were true. That I could die and not be taken to account for my sins.
..but I don't believe that, so for me, I will have to answer for what I do.

NOT, that I want to treat people badly.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Millions of Muslims have never even read the Quran.

That's ridiculous..
All "practising" Muslims read the Qur'an, unless they can't read, which is not a majority these days.

Are you saying that I am satan and just pretending to be an atheist?

No .. I was pointing out satan's position.

Only God, and maybe yourself, knows why you hold the stance you do on Islam.
You tell me what the Qur'an says, and that a Muslim's beliefs are stupid, illogical and contradictory .. as if practising Muslims are dumbos.

 

[KWED]

No. That is what you WANT it to mean.

No, it is what those words mean, when used in that order.

We all treat others badly .. unless of course you think that you are a saint in this respect.

Irrelevant to my point - but yeah, I try to treat no one badly. Can't think of any instance recently, and I never fall out with people, so maybe not a "saint", but not bad either.

..so I was saying that I wished it were true. That I could die and not be taken to account for my sins.
..but I don't believe that, so for me, I will have to answer for what I do.

But you specifically brought "no god" into the equation, and linked that to treating people badly and behaving immorally. I accept that you might not have meant what you said, but you did say what you said. Perhaps choose your words more carefully in future?

NOT

, that I want to treat people badly.

I didn't say you said that. You implied that without god, you would behave immorally, implying that that would be your natural behaviour without god's regulating influence.

 

[KWED]

That's ridiculous..

Is it?...

All

"practising" Muslims read the Qur'an, unless they can't read, which is not a majority these days.

Millions of Muslims cannot read, therefore they cannot have read the Quran.
So not ridiculous at all.
But why do you think so many thousands of Muslims went to join ISIS, and why so many millions support the violent and intolerant interpretations of the seemingly violent and intolerant passages , if most of them read the Quran and it doesn't include any such passages, as you claim?

Only God, and maybe yourself, knows why you hold the stance you do on Islam.

You do as well, because I've told you. It's from an objective and critical analysis of Islamic scripture. I'll repeat my position, and you tell me where it is wrong...
Islam is a religion of peace and violence, of tolerance and intolerance, of equality and discrimination, depending on the circumstances.

You tell me what the Qur'an says,

Yes. And I will give you mainstream, authoritative scholarly opinion where needed. You just seem to give me your own opinion and ignore what it says.

and that a Muslim's beliefs are stupid, illogical and contradictory ..

Yes, but that is the case for most religious belief - although I wouldn't use the word "stupid" as the reasons for the development of those beliefs are understandable.

as if practising Muslims are dumbos.

Don't do yourself down. Childhood indoctrination is very difficult to break, especially for most Muslims worldwide where it is reinforced throughout their lives and they are rarely exposed to any serous criticism or counter argument. Even where in a minority, the very close family and community system will still reinforce. Cognitive dissonance/confirmation bias are also very powerful. And I can imagine far more western Muslims go on pro-Islam YouTube channels and forums rather than on debate sites like this. I have signed up to a couple of Islamic "debate" forums and been swiftly banned. Dissension and criticism is not tolerated.