Without God(s), what is the point?!

[KWED]

You are very good at twisting people's words.
I haven't mentioned anything about incomes.

Money is for spending .. if people hold big bank accounts [ or invest it in property or interest bearing schemes etc. ] they are deemed rich.

As usual, you seem unaware of the implications of what you are saying. So perhaps you can clarify (as you keep avoiding my questions).

Can a Muslim who is successful, wealthy, healthy, privileged, and enjoys life from birth right up until death at an advanced age, who has never experienced tragedy or suffering, be a "true believer"?

 

[KWED]

That's just word-games..

Er, that's kinda how we examine statements for coherence.
The Quran says two contradictory things. Pointing this out is not "word games".

Dad: No you can't go to the park.
Kid: But you said if I did my homework I could go.
Dad: That's just word games.

Almighty God has created human beings with free-will.

Not all of us. Not according to the Quran.

He knows that some will be righteous and some not.

Yes, because he has created some unrighteous, and he will misguide some into unrighteousness.

It is not that He created a specific person to go to hell ..

He says that he does. In the Quran. So it must be true.

that contradicts having free-will.

Bingo!
(the penny finally drops)

It is A GIVEN that we have free-will.

That is your fundamental error here. You are making ab assumption that is not supported by the evidence. The Quran clearly and explicitly states that in some cases we do not have free will. The problem almost certainly arose because of the piecemeal way the Quran was written, in response to events and questions rather than with an overall, coherent plan.
You can imagine the scenario. Believers are asking why so many people (including friends and family) refuse to accept Muhammad's claims about Allah, even though they are supposed to be clear, self-evident, obvious truths, etc, etc.
"Oh, that's because Allah misguides some people", "Some people are created for hell", etc.
But he has already proposed the principle of free will because without it, the concept of heaven and hell, reward and punishment make no sense.

Anything else, such as to do with qadr and the like, must be interpreted in that light .. otherwise the interpretation is most surely wrong !

This is called "question begging", or circular logic.
You are staring with a conclusion that you require to be correct, and then simply reject anything that contradicts that position. You are not standing back and looking at the big picture objectively.

 

[KWED]

The Bible repeatedly defines love by its actions.
1 Corinthians 13:4–8a Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

Nothing in that suggests that you can only love those who you physically help.
In fact, the emboldened part supports my argument, that love is simply "love". No rules or requirements.

 

[KWED]

You are showing your ignorance of Christianity.

Ok. Which parts of what I said do not apply to Christianity?

Ironically, it is you who is showing a lack of understanding of the actual nature of your own faith.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not all of us. Not according to the Quran.

No ! EVERYBODY that is mentally competent has free-will.

Yes, because he has created some unrighteous, and he will misguide some into unrighteousness.

It is allegorical.
You wish to interpret things the way you do so as to show contradiction.
For billions of people it is NOT contradictory.
They see it as a case of spiritual blindness.
One could say that "God has taken away a person's sight".
..not literally .. God is not a person that has literally blinded you.

We blind ourselves by subconscious denial. It's psychological, if you will.

Anyhow, I feel sure you will keep on thinking in your dead-end street mode.

 

[KWED]

No ! EVERYBODY that is mentally competent has free-will.

That is what you feel is necessary for heaven and hell not to be fundamentally unjust and unfair.
However, Allah has said different, in the Quran - which is a more reliable source than your opinion (Islamically speaking).

It is allegorical.

How is it allegorical? What does it actually mean? And why is allegory used rather than clear meaning?

You wish to interpret things the way you do so as to show contradiction.

You see, here's where you are going wrong here. I am not "interpreting" it. I am simply assuming that Allah meant what he said.
It is you who is imposing your own interpretation onto Allah's perfect, immutable revelation. You don't like the implication of what he said so you are changing it to something that suits you better.

For billions of people it is NOT contradictory.

Firstly, exaggeration. Of the 1.something billion people who are labelled "Muslim", millions have never even read the Quran, never mind critically analysed its apparently contradictory passages.
Second, like yourself, if they are aware of the contradiction, confirmation bias/cognitive dissonance steps in.

They see it as a case of spiritual blindness.

That was imposed by god either through creation or misguiding.

One could say that "God has taken away a person's sight".
..not literally .. God is not a person that has literally blinded you.

Why do you keep bringing up this straw man? I have never claimed nor implied that god is a physical being who operates like a human.

We blind ourselves by subconscious denial. It's psychological, if you will.

Then why does Allah need to misguide people? And that doesn't cover his claim that he "created people fore hell".

Also, given your argument, you are also claiming that god does not "guide" people either. Any move towards Islam and piety is purely from within. Allah has no influence or effect. So when Muslims pray to Allah to guide them they are actually praying to themselves.

Anyhow, I feel sure you will keep on thinking in your dead-end street mode.

I will keep addressing your arguments as long as you keep making them. Kinda the point of being on a religious debate forum.

 

[muhammad_isa]

How is it allegorical? What does it actually mean? And why is allegory used rather than clear meaning?

..simply because [as the Qur'an tells us .. but you only cherry-pick stuff to construe mockery] GOD is NOT comparable to anything at all that we can comprehend.
Language is employed to convey concept. How else can God communicate with us .. through unknown words of concept that we are unable to grasp?

I don't claim to know what God is .. only what "He" isn't

You see, here's where you are going wrong here. I am not "interpreting" it. I am simply assuming that Allah meant what he said.

The above sentence assumes that God is AN INDIVIDUAL.
That is your assumption. It might appear to be the case, as many people cannot consider God to be anything else.

I have never claimed nor implied that god is a physical being who operates like a human..

You imply it with your rhetoric..

Then why does Allah need to misguide people?

Why? Why? Why?
Your interpretation of "Allah does this or that" translates as "Allah, the individual, does this or that to us"

You admit that you don't KNOW what Allah is, yet you keep talking as if He is some kind of individual being.
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The whole point of religion, is teaching that we are NOT independent.
"Allah is closer to us than our jugular vein."
i.e. we ALL belong to God .. a part of God, if you will.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Ok. Which parts of what I said do not apply to Christianity?

Ironically, it is you who is showing a lack of understanding of the actual nature of your own faith.

There's no pride on surrending to God, like you claim.
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. James 4:10

 

[Wildswanderer]

Nothing in that suggests that you can only love those who you physically help.
In fact, the emboldened part supports my argument, that love is simply "love". No rules or requirements.

Wow... that is strained interpretation.

 

[KWED]

..simply because [as the Qur'an tells us .. but you only cherry-pick stuff to construe mockery] GOD is NOT comparable to anything at all that we can comprehend. Language is employed to convey concept. How else can God communicate with us .. through unknown words of concept that we are unable to grasp?

What does that have to do with it? Allah has communicated his perfect, final message to us using words. Those words and what they mean, by definition, must be comprehensible to us.
Your argument here is basically "we can't hope to understand anything in the Quran, and if we think we do, we are probably wrong. Which means that the Quran is entirely useless.

I don't claim to know what God is .. only what "He" isn't

Again, irrelevant. All that matters here are the words he revealed and what they mean.

The above sentence assumes that God is AN INDIVIDUAL. That is your assumption. It might appear to be the case, as many people cannot consider God to be anything else.

Of course he is an individual entity. Otherwise you are committing shirk.
After all, the Quran tells Muhammad to say "He is the one god, there is no one equal to him".
How is that not referring to Allah as an individual?
Oh, sorry. I forgot. We can't understand the Quran. Whatever we think it says is wrong.

You imply it with your rhetoric..

Utter nonsense. Nowhere on this forum will you find anything from me that even implies that I think the Islamic god is a physical person. You're just making stuff up now.

Why? Why? Why?
Your interpretation of "Allah does this or that" translates as "Allah, the individual, does this or that to us"

. No. It translates as "why does Allah, the immaterial being, do this or that?
And why does it matter if he is a pan universal energy field or an old man with a beard on a cloud. They question of why he/she/they/it does anything still stands. And you are still avoiding it.

The whole point of religion, is teaching that we are NOT independent.
"Allah is closer to us than our jugular vein."
i.e. we ALL belong to God .. a part of God, if you will.

What does that have to do with any of my points or questions (which are still unaddressed)?

 

[KWED]

There's no pride on surrending to God, like you claim.

But I didn't make that claim, so try again.
I said "Believing that you are somehow special, better than other species, that god has reserved a special place for you in paradise, etc is the hight of arrogance and pride" and "doing good deeds for reward/to avoid punishment rather than simply to help others is selfish".

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. James 4:10

It is pointless quoting meaningless platitudes at me.

 

[KWED]

Wow... that is strained interpretation.

Er, no. That is what it actually says, as I showed.
It is your "interpretation" that is strained. (When I say "interpretation" I mean "making up stuff that bears no relation to the original text").

 

[Wildswanderer]

But I didn't make that claim, so try again.
I said "Believing that you are somehow special, better than other species, that god has reserved a special place for you in paradise, etc is the hight of arrogance and pride" and "doing good deeds for reward/to avoid punishment rather than simply to help others is selfish".

It is pointless quoting meaningless platitudes at me.

See... that's what you don't understand...it's not about doing good deeds in order to be rewarded. It's doing good out of love.
As I said, you do not understand Christianity.

 

[Sheldon]

Things that Jesus never said.

You have no way of knowing what Jesus may or may not have said.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What does that have to do with it? Allah has communicated his perfect, final message to us using words. Those words and what they mean, by definition, must be comprehensible to us.

Of course. Funny how your comprehension is different from mine...
Ah, of course.
Allah is guiding me aright, and sending you astray.
However, that wouldn't happen unless there is something "dark" inside your "heart".

Next you will be telling me that the verse "the sun set in a muddy spring" means that Allah doesn't know that the sun doesn't fall out of the sky into a pool of water.

After all, the Quran tells Muhammad to say "He is the one god, there is no one equal to him".
How is that not referring to Allah as an individual?
Oh, sorry. I forgot. We can't understand the Quran.,

..so why does Allah the Almighty refer to Himself as "we" ?

Yes .. there is only ONE god. Only One worthy of worship.
..and that is Our Creator.
If you worship the creation eg. sun, moon or man, cow etc, that is shirk

. No. It translates as "why does Allah, the immaterial being, do this or that?

OK .. so what is this "immaterial being" comprised of .. I mean is God just the same as a person, but without a body?
..because that is how it seems your mind conceives..
i.e. God is just a made-up being corresponding to a human without a body .. and its all a hoax because this universe is just a freak accident

 

[Sheldon]

Wow you just repeated the same nonsense again. Impressive!
Focus: thosands of late term abortions that you support. This is the issue.

Wow you just ran away from the facts that destroyed yet another risibly false claim.

LOL you didn't address "Falsehoods? You think sex is man made? The mysoginystic anti-choicers may want abortion to be murder, but it's not by definition. Look the word up. Any more than it could be called genocide by any half literate person. Again look the word up. The fact anti-choicers have to resort to lies and use false and inaccurate terms infers something about their arguments, something beyond mere duplicity I'd say.

A blastocyst isn't a person, that's axiomatic, but even if it were, it would be immoral to insist it could take away the rights of women to bodily autonomy, as has been amply demonstrated. Since all the anti-choicers are happy to kill (their own vernacular) kidney patients by not letting them use their bodies against their will, and exercise their right to live(again their own ridiculous vernacular).

All the rest is coloured bubbles."

 

[Sheldon]

Is Jesus not God?

There's a possibility he's just as imaginary...

 

[Wildswanderer]

Wow you just ran away from the facts that destroyed yet another risibly false claim.

LOL you didn't address "Falsehoods? You think sex is man made? The mysoginystic anti-choicers may want abortion to be murder, but it's not by definition. Look the word up. Any more than it could be called genocide by any half literate person. Again look the word up. The fact anti-choicers have to resort to lies and use false and inaccurate terms infers something about their arguments, something beyond mere duplicity I'd say.

A blastocyst isn't a person, that's axiomatic, but even if it were, it would be immoral to insist it could take away the rights of women to bodily autonomy, as has been amply demonstrated. Since all the anti-choicers are happy to kill (their own vernacular) kidney patients by not letting them use their bodies against their will, and exercise their right to live(again their own ridiculous vernacular).

All the rest is coloured bubbles."

Once again you refuse to address the issue.

 

[Sheldon]

Jesus actually clarified the law by explaining that it was limited in scope.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). He asserted that not even something as small as an accent mark in the written law would be changed until heaven and earth pass away (verse 18)

 

[Sheldon]

So you admit that Hitler got his genocidal tendencies from god.

Well @Wildswanderer already stated the deity he imagined to be real has a comparable image to Hitler. Though he's remained reticent about his claim that Hitler was better than dog, without offering anything objective or any practical explanation of why he made this bizarre assertion.