Without God(s), what is the point?!

[KWED]

I wouldn't take any advice about what a Muslim should believe from an atheist.

Sorry, got distracted.
I was going to say that Muslims aren't supposed to accept the authority of disbelievers as leaders, but decided not to bother.

But you shouldn't be so close-minded. There are plenty of Muslims with very little knowledge of Islam who could learn a thing or two from some atheists - remember that there are atheists who are professors in Islamic studies. Simply saying the shahada doesn't magically give you knowledge or qualifications you know. Being an atheist doesn't mean you know nothing about Islam.

 

[KWED]

More rubbish !

How is that "rubbish"? The civilised world has demonstrably changed its moral position towards slavery over the last couple of centuries.
But you claimed that changing moral values was a bad thing.
So I ask again - has the moral change towards slavery been a bad thing?

We are all a product of our upbringing and environment.
That is one reason why we have different opinions about things.
We have all experienced different things [ or not ! ]

Yes. But that is my position regards morality.
You claim it is fixed as divinely revealed, and is not subject to circumstantial change.
You seem rather confused here.

 

[KWED]

Yeah, and you are a time-waster, who wants to pick holes in a believer's posts.
I said what I meant by that post.
Believe about me as you like .. and I will believe about you as I like.

Again, you seem confused.
You posted certain words in a certain order. That therefore had a meaning. Whether that meaning is the meaning you intended to present is a different matter.
It has become quite clear to me that there are a fair few people on here who don't seem aware of the implications of what they are saying half the time. Presumably this is down to simply repeating acquired dogmatic platitudes, etc, rather than formulating considered responses based on the ongoing arguments.

 

[KWED]

All anyone has to do is follow the 4 or five steps back using the links to the posts, to see he was responding to a post that made a specific claim (@Wildswanderer) about the existence of a deity, and he leaped on it, and implied he sometimes wished that it were not true, so he could treat people badly and profit from immorality, that is literally what he said. Ironically implying atheists are immoral and profit from immorality, but ironically then making up all manner of false claims that I had demeaned the morality of theists, when I did nothing of the sort, you really have to laugh. Though by now it is what i have come to expect.

Not sure if @muhammad_isa said he wanted to treat others badly and behave immorally. To be fair, it seemed more like he wished there was no god so he wouldn't be judged whatever, but didn't think he would like the treating people badly and immorality that necessarily comes with godlessness, therefore implying that it is only god that stops him from treating others badly and behaving immorally. The further implication being that because most atheists don't treat others badly and behave immorally as a matter of course, that his fundamental nature is somehow less kind and more immoral than your average atheist's.

 

[KWED]

That's all that interests them "false claims".

In the context of debate, false claims are a pretty big issue, to be fair!

With every action, there is an intention behind it.

Not involuntary or reflex actions.

Almighty God knows the intention of every one of us, but they deny God,

We don't "deny god" because there is nothing to deny.
It's like saying that you "deny the FSM". Do you deny him?

and claim to know what we all intend themselves.

You are getting confused by words again. The issue isn't "intention", in is "implication".
It is irrelevant what you "intended" to say, what you "actually said" seems to have been different.

 

[KWED]

Do you even understand the words of mine that you are quoting?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..therefore implying that it is only god that stops him from treating others badly and behaving immorally...

No.
If there was "no god", I would kill myself, and that would be that.

..but I don't believe that, as you know. I believe that I would continue to suffer .. probably more so.

 

[KWED]

No.

*sigh*
In response to a comment about there being no god and everything being ultimately meaningless, you said...

"Sometimes I wish it were true. But alas, I don't think that I can get away with treating others badly, while I profit through immorality."

So, why do you think you would be treating others badly and behaving immorally if there was no god, if not because your belief in god prevents you?
Or were you saying that you currently treat people badly and profit through immorality and believe you will be punished for it, whether there is a god or not?

If there was "no god", I would kill myself, and that would be that.

So why do you think all the millions of atheists and especially apostates haven't killed themselves?

..but I don't believe that, as you know. I believe that I would continue to suffer .. probably more so.

Hold on. You don't believe you would do what you have just said you would do?
Or you don't believe that death is the end, even if there is no god?

(See, this is what I mean about checking your posts/trying to think rationally. What you have said is almost certainly not what you meant)

 

[Wildswanderer]

By not quoting religious dogma, by not using explanations that require belief in certain claims.

How are we going to discuss religion without using religious sources?

 

[Wildswanderer]

So god is a spirit. Like a ghost?

Ghosts aren't real. Spirits are. A spirit is an entity without a physical body. Like angels, although there's evidence that angels can take on a physical body, similar to what Jesus did.

 

[KWED]

How are we going to discuss religion without using religious sources?

By expressing your arguments in plain terms rather than using religious platitudes or just quoting scripture. If you think a piece of scripture or a specific belief is important, explain what it means in terms that make sense to those who don't already assume them to be true.

 

[Wildswanderer]

By expressing your arguments in plain terms rather than using religious platitudes or just quoting scripture. If you think a piece of scripture or a specific belief is important, explain what it means in terms that make sense to those who don't already assume them to be true.

You asked about a concept within Christianity. It can't be explained without the Christian scriptures that define it.
Just because you don't believe doesn't mean you can not understand the concepts.

 

[KWED]

Ghosts aren't real.

So you are calling all those people claim supernatural entities are real, dishonest or delusional. Interesting.

Spirits are. A spirit is an entity without a physical body.

Like a ghost then.

Like angels,

So angels are like ghosts?

although there's evidence that angels can take on a physical body, similar to what Jesus did.

So Jesus might have been an angel? Or a ghost?

This is starting to make sense to me.

 

[KWED]

You asked about a concept within Christianity. It can't be explained without the Christian scriptures that define it.
Just because you don't believe doesn't mean you can not understand the concepts.

*sigh*
I just said, if you need to use scripture as part of an explanation, you need to explain what it means any how the explanation works in terms that don't assume existing belief.

One example I gave was you saying ... "Christ is the culmination of the law, the holy standard of the Law was perfectly upheld by Christ, the strict requirements personally obeyed, and the ceremonial observances finally and fully satisfied."
That is utterly meaningless to someone who isn't familiar with a certain type of Christian dogma. You need to explain what it means in ordinary terms, not religious platitudes.
If you can't, you don't really understand what it means yourself.
You seem unable to explain it in any other way than in those religious, dogmatic platitudes. So I guess you don't understand it, you are just repeating stuff you've heard elsewhere.

 

[Wildswanderer]

*sigh*
I just said, if you need to use scripture as part of an explanation, you need to explain what it means any how the explanation works in terms that don't assume existing belief.

One example I gave was you saying ... "Christ is the culmination of the law, the holy standard of the Law was perfectly upheld by Christ, the strict requirements personally obeyed, and the ceremonial observances finally and fully satisfied."
That is utterly meaningless to someone who isn't familiar with a certain type of Christian dogma. You need to explain what it means in ordinary terms, not religious platitudes.
If you can't, you don't really understand what it means yourself.
You seem unable to explain it in any other way than in those religious, dogmatic platitudes. So I guess you don't understand it, you are just repeating stuff you've heard elsewhere.

What, specifically, don't you understand?
In order to explain it fully I'd have to post practically the whole Bible.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So you are calling all those people claim supernatural entities are real, dishonest or delusional. Interesting.

Like a ghost then.

So angels are like ghosts?

So Jesus might have been an angel? Or a ghost?

This is starting to make sense to me.

Ghosts don't exist.
The spirit realm sometimes experienced by humans is not composed of dead people walking around.
It's composed of angels and demons and the Holy Spirit.
I'm sure some of the people seeing supernatural entities are seeing manifestations from demons.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So why do you think all the millions of atheists and especially apostates haven't killed themselves?

I presume they find life worth living, and are not suffering intolerably.

As I say, I would kill myself if I thought that God does not exist.
My faith is the only thing that stops me.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I presume they find life worth living, and are not suffering intolerably.

As I say, I would kill myself if I thought that God does not exist.
My faith is the only thing that stops me.

Have you considered getting counseling?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Have you considered getting counseling?

I can't afford it .. there is a long waiting list for public services.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I can't afford it .. there is a long waiting list for public services.

I'm sorry to hear that. In the US, clergy sometimes counsel. Would you be able to go to your Imam? I'm not trying to talk you out of your god; you sound sad and as if you need help.