Without God there is no hope

[LuisDantas]

Please note that I did not say that without God there is no hope for anyone.
I was referring to hope for myself.
This was my feelings about my own situation.
I said I was just expressing a feeling based upon my trying to change certain things and being unable to do so.

I try to put myself in your place and there is a bit of a challenge there. How would I describe the same feelings?

Certainly not as being without god; I never feel that I am with god and quite sincerely I have no desire to change that at all.

But I suspect that the main difference is actually in the feelings that you associate with hope.

Your OP talks about apparent choices that bring no good results. I can't help but suspect that I would not call them choices at all. If a direction brings no results that I would want, there is a real chance that I won't think of that direction as a choice in the first place.

I wish you do not burden yourself with heavy feelings from decisions that may not even be real.

 

[Koldo]

I am not making a claim, I am only expressing a feeling, and I could be wrong so I am open to other perspectives. This is only the way I am feeling now, based upon my trying to change certain things and being unable to do so. In short, I feel completely stuck, like I have no control over my own life, and I feel like God is the only one who can help me. Everything I have tried to do goes to hell in a breadbasket so I have resigned myself to hoping that God will help me by guiding me to decide what to do and assisting me to do it, or that God will help me via fate, by causing things to happen to me.

I believe that everyone's fate is already written in the Book of Life, which is the Tablet of Fate.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.

Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133

Then there is the question: What is caused by God's decree and what is caused by a free will choice? I think some things happen to us that are not decreed by God, they are chosen by us, and some things that we do not choose are decreed by God.

Moreover, even if something is decreed by God, not everything that is decreed by God is fixed and settled. The passage above says that the decree that is impending is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it, so I might be able to influence God’s decree that is impending by praying to God.

What is the connection between fate and free will? How can we have free will if everything is predetermined by God? I believe that God is all-knowing so God knows everything we are going to do, and that has already been written on the Tablet of Fate, but I do not believe that what God knows causes anyone to do anything. I believe things happen because we make a choice to do them and act on that choice.

Is what ends up being written on the Tablet of Fate simply what God knows we are going to choose to do? But what about things that happen to us that are not chosen by us? I think those things are also our fate. In short, I think there is the fate we choose and the fate we don't choose, and I think the passage above is referring to the fate we don't choose, the fate we are hoping to avert, God's decree.

Debating free will is one of my favorite topics, but... I don't think that is really the crux of the issue. I don't know much about you, but let me tell you this: Many biblical characters didn't have the life they wanted.

The solution you are looking for is an adjustment to your life, something that will improve your life without a massive change in your lifestyle, but that's often not what the God of the bible grants. He often asks for life changing actions. Think of the apostles abandoning their previous lives.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I don't believe those Bible verses represent what God did so I don't believe that God arbitrarily strikes anyone down.

And another one who like to cherry pick which verses represent the truth and which don't. The Bible Buffet, I like to call it, where if you don't like the broccoli you don't have to bother with it.

 

[Nimos]

This is only the way I am feeling now, based upon my trying to change certain things and being unable to do so. In short, I feel completely stuck, like I have no control over my own life, and I feel like God is the only one who can help me. Everything I have tried to do goes to hell in a breadbasket so I have resigned myself to hoping that God will help me by guiding me to decide what to do and assisting me to do it, or that God will help me via fate, by causing things to happen to me.

It is difficult to reply to what you are saying when it is not obvious from what you write, what exactly you would like changed in your life and in which way you believe that it has failed, or even which steps you have taken to change it.

There are many factors involved here depending on what we are talking about. The stuff you want to be changed might have failed because your initial approach was wrong, so maybe it was doomed from the beginning. It might also be that what you are trying to change is simply not easy to change or it takes a lot of time etc.

Obviously, as an atheist, I have no fate in God doing anything, but nonetheless, we can have "fate" and probably more correct to call it to hope that certain things will go our way. But usually, this simply means that things occur in such a way that it ends up benefitting us in a positive way. So there is no higher power or anything behind it, the closest you could probably get is to just refer to it as luck.

So without really thinking about it too much, I think all atheists in general will approach problems with the basic idea that we have to stack or prepare things to be in our favour and those things for which we have no control, as it might depend on other humans or some other external factor, that they for whatever reason "vote" or act in our favour.

But relying on fate, I think most if not all atheists would agree is probably the worse approach one can take because that is basically to just hope that things go your way without any good reason to believe that. So an atheist reaching this point in a process, I think is somewhat equal to saying that such a person has given up or they have reached a point where they don't know how to solve something, in which case, it might be a good idea to get advice from other people. Either to simply get a fresh perspective or maybe from someone that has been in or dealt with something similar and how they "stacked" things in their favour so to speak or maybe professional help if that is what is needed.

So again there are many things that can play a part in why something doesn't go the way we would like, but to me at least the solution is to figure out why, where and what went wrong and then try again.

 

[RestlessSoul]

And another one who like to cherry pick which verses represent the truth and which don't. The Bible Buffet, I like to call it, where if you don't like the broccoli you don't have to bother with it.

I believe that’s called practicing discernment.

Whereas rejecting a centuries old compendium of literature in it’s entirety because you can’t reconcile yourself to a handful of verses, is called throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I believe that’s called practicing discernment.

Whereas rejecting a centuries old compendium of literature in it’s entirety because you can’t reconcile yourself to a handful of verses, is called throwing the baby out with the bath water.

"Wisdom" isn't made stronger by keeping it 100% intact forever - it is strengthened through the addition of new learning. Thus, the fact of the literature in scripture being "centuries old" does not make it somehow inherently more trustworthy than what we may have learned through other means than the best guesses of long-dead writers, no matter how intelligent they might have been.

 

[RestlessSoul]

"Wisdom" isn't made stronger by keeping it 100% intact forever - it is strengthened through the addition of new learning. Thus, the fact of the literature in scripture being "centuries old" does not make it somehow inherently more trustworthy than what we may have learned through other means than the best guesses of long-dead writers, no matter how intelligent they might have been.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. But I don't see how it fits your prior assertion, that there is something inherently wrong about reading The Bible selectively, and disregarding those verses or passages that may be the most troublesome to us, from our 21st Century perspective.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have oodles of hope and have been godless for about 40 years

I find that 'oodles of hope' is because of the teaching about Resurrection Day.
(Resurrection Day meaning the coming of Jesus governing over Earth for a thousand years - John 6:40,44; Acts 24:15)
Without a future hope of living then only death enters the picture, death with No hope.
Without any resurrection there is No point but to eat and drink because tomorrow one would be gone forever.

 

[Soandso]

There was a time in my life where I waited around for years for god's help with a serious issue to no avail. After no help came, I rolled up my sleeves and learned to deal with it the best way I could. It could have ended up better, but it's been getting better year after year

"God helps those who help themselves" aint in the bible, but I feel that it should be. Waiting around for god did me no good, and I'm not fortunate or lucky enough to get what I need without serious effort. I make my own hope

That said, everyone has their own struggles in life. What works for me won't always work for others

 

[YoursTrue]

I try to put myself in your place and there is a bit of a challenge there. How would I describe the same feelings?

Certainly not as being without god; I never feel that I am with god and quite sincerely I have no desire to change that at all.

But I suspect that the main difference is actually in the feelings that you associate with hope.

Your OP talks about apparent choices that bring no good results. I can't help but suspect that I would not call them choices at all. If a direction brings no results that I would want, there is a real chance that I won't think of that direction as a choice in the first place.

I wish you do not burden yourself with heavy feelings from decisions that may not even be real.

About direction, that is an interesting thought. Jesus said the road is narrow and few would find it, many would be on the broad road to -- destruction.

 

[YoursTrue]

There was a time in my life where I waited around for years for god's help with a serious issue to no avail. After no help came, I rolled up my sleeves and learned to deal with it the best way I could. It could have ended up better, but it's been getting better year after year

"God helps those who help themselves" aint in the bible, but I feel that it should be. Waiting around for god did me no good, and I'm not fortunate or lucky enough to get what I need without serious effort. I make my own hope

That said, everyone has their own struggles in life. What works for me won't always work for others

It's good that you're coping and things are getting better.

 

[YoursTrue]

"Wisdom" isn't made stronger by keeping it 100% intact forever - it is strengthened through the addition of new learning. Thus, the fact of the literature in scripture being "centuries old" does not make it somehow inherently more trustworthy than what we may have learned through other means than the best guesses of long-dead writers, no matter how intelligent they might have been.

It's partially the prophecies that have been recorded, and the account of the Messiah.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is difficult to reply to what you are saying when it is not obvious from what you write, what exactly you would like changed in your life and in which way you believe that it has failed, or even which steps you have taken to change it.

There are many factors involved here depending on what we are talking about. The stuff you want to be changed might have failed because your initial approach was wrong, so maybe it was doomed from the beginning. It might also be that what you are trying to change is simply not easy to change or it takes a lot of time etc.

Obviously, as an atheist, I have no fate in God doing anything, but nonetheless, we can have "fate" and probably more correct to call it to hope that certain things will go our way. But usually, this simply means that things occur in such a way that it ends up benefitting us in a positive way. So there is no higher power or anything behind it, the closest you could probably get is to just refer to it as luck.

So without really thinking about it too much, I think all atheists in general will approach problems with the basic idea that we have to stack or prepare things to be in our favour and those things for which we have no control, as it might depend on other humans or some other external factor, that they for whatever reason "vote" or act in our favour.

But relying on fate, I think most if not all atheists would agree is probably the worse approach one can take because that is basically to just hope that things go your way without any good reason to believe that. So an atheist reaching this point in a process, I think is somewhat equal to saying that such a person has given up or they have reached a point where they don't know how to solve something, in which case, it might be a good idea to get advice from other people. Either to simply get a fresh perspective or maybe from someone that has been in or dealt with something similar and how they "stacked" things in their favour so to speak or maybe professional help if that is what is needed.

So again there are many things that can play a part in why something doesn't go the way we would like, but to me at least the solution is to figure out why, where and what went wrong and then try again.

An interesting thought you bring out, because I can see the world isn't getting any better. This does not mean it won't get better, but there are promises in the Bible that it will get better, in fact, wonderful, and that makes me feel better and not hopeless.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

There was a time in my life where I waited around for years for god's help with a serious issue to no avail. After no help came, I rolled up my sleeves and learned to deal with it the best way I could. It could have ended up better, but it's been getting better year after year

"God helps those who help themselves" aint in the bible, but I feel that it should be. Waiting around for god did me no good, and I'm not fortunate or lucky enough to get what I need without serious effort. I make my own hope

That said, everyone has their own struggles in life. What works for me won't always work for others

I did the same thing in my life after waiting for God's help for years, first as a child growing up in an abusive home and then foolishly as an adult, hoping and trusting that God would at the very least help me cope better with the PTSD and trauma I was experiencing as a result of the abuse, neglect, and mistreatment I experienced while growing up. I wasted most of my life waiting on God, and there are times when I feel incredibly foolish and gullible for continuing to believe that God would eventually answer my prayers and help me. And I can't help but think how much time I wasted as a devout Christian. As I stated in my previous post (read it here), I had to let go of believing, hoping, and trusting in God before I could heal emotionally and finally find hope, joy, peace, and contentment in my life. I truly believe that letting go of my belief, hope, and trust in God and renouncing my Christian faith was the best decision that I've ever made in my life. It was without a doubt the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am not making a claim, I am only expressing a feeling, and I could be wrong so I am open to other perspectives. This is only the way I am feeling now, based upon my trying to change certain things and being unable to do so. In short, I feel completely stuck, like I have no control over my own life, and I feel like God is the only one who can help me. Everything I have tried to do goes to hell in a breadbasket so I have resigned myself to hoping that God will help me by guiding me to decide what to do and assisting me to do it, or that God will help me via fate, by causing things to happen to me.

I believe that everyone's fate is already written in the Book of Life, which is the Tablet of Fate.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.

Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133

Then there is the question: What is caused by God's decree and what is caused by a free will choice? I think some things happen to us that are not decreed by God, they are chosen by us, and some things that we do not choose are decreed by God.

Moreover, even if something is decreed by God, not everything that is decreed by God is fixed and settled. The passage above says that the decree that is impending is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it, so I might be able to influence God’s decree that is impending by praying to God.

What is the connection between fate and free will? How can we have free will if everything is predetermined by God? I believe that God is all-knowing so God knows everything we are going to do, and that has already been written on the Tablet of Fate, but I do not believe that what God knows causes anyone to do anything. I believe things happen because we make a choice to do them and act on that choice.

Is what ends up being written on the Tablet of Fate simply what God knows we are going to choose to do? But what about things that happen to us that are not chosen by us? I think those things are also our fate. In short, I think there is the fate we choose and the fate we don't choose, and I think the passage above is referring to the fate we don't choose, the fate we are hoping to avert, God's decree.

My thought on the QUOTE above, is, as it says, both fates are determined by God, one is fixed one is not. Yet, both fates are determined according to the primary wisdom of God. In that case, would God replace a fate that was ordained through His wisdom, with what we ask Him? I cannot say our wisdom is above God's wisdom. So, even if it is not fixed, yet, God would not change the fate, unless what we ask Him, is a wiser choice than what He originally had ordained. My take is, Bahaullah out of His wisdom, did not want us to be hopeless. He wanted us to have a hope that, if we pray to God, He may change things. But in reality, in my current understanding, whatever is predestined by God, so, shall be it. I currently have no hope, that if I pray, God will change what was destined to happen. Prayer is only for a lover of God. Not to want anything to be changed. Rather to be in submission to God's will and accept it. I could be wrong though. But currently that's my conclusions.

 

[Nimos]

An interesting thought you bring out, because I can see the world isn't getting any better. This does not mean it won't get better, but there are promises in the Bible that it will get better, in fact, wonderful, and that makes me feel better and not hopeless.

The problem is that people have relied on that idea for the last couple of thousand years yet it doesn't seem to go anywhere. Hope is not a bad thing, but it might not be the best thing to rely on if there are other options

 

[samtonga43]

There was a time in my life where I waited around for years for god's help with a serious issue to no avail. After no help came, I rolled up my sleeves and learned to deal with it the best way I could. It could have ended up better, but it's been getting better year after year

"God helps those who help themselves" aint in the bible, but I feel that it should be. Waiting around for god did me no good, and I'm not fortunate or lucky enough to get what I need without serious effort. I make my own hope

That said, everyone has their own struggles in life. What works for me won't always work for others

If you are in need of a job, ask God to help you find a job - and then look for a job.

What good would it do sitting around at home, waiting for God to send along prospective employers?

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

I have hope because we are creating God. See, having these long-winded conversations about the nature of God and quoting various scriptures helps people understand each other and where they are coming from, without removing their own personal expression of such. @Trailblazer , you may think that quoting Baha'u'llah makes your argument stronger, whereas I think most people who argue that it makes it weaker instead. But that's the gambit of life, I guess. Most people believe what they want to believe. The atheists who say they have hope ultimately have to believe in something, even if they don't believe in God. I just take that something and say, "Well, that will be God someday." But having these discussions and sharing opinions about God and the supernatural helps us understand each other and the nature of the Universe and its forces. And that's all in part of creating God, as there's thousands, if not, millions of different interpretations of what God is and what that means to people. In essence, Religious Forums is just a small part in helping people understand what God means to others, and that to me is equivalent to creating God. And that's why I have hope.

 

[Soandso]

If you are in need of a job, ask God to help you find a job - and then look for a job.

What good would it do sitting around at home, waiting for God to send along prospective employers?

Eh... When it comes to jobs or things like that, maybe, but when it comes to issues like one's living situation or mental health that's a whole different can of worms

 

[Koldo]

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. But I don't see how it fits your prior assertion, that there is something inherently wrong about reading The Bible selectively, and disregarding those verses or passages that may be the most troublesome to us, from our 21st Century perspective.

If you don't see the bible as being the word of God, I also see no problem.