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Without God there is no hope

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
And another one who like to cherry pick which verses represent the truth and which don't. The Bible Buffet, I like to call it, where if you don't like the broccoli you don't have to bother with it.

As a former Christian, I can attest that what you described is very typical of people who believe in the God of the Bible, especially most Christians. When I was a Christian, I certainly made a conscious effort to dismiss all of the scriptures in the Bible that described God's irrational anger, narcissism, sadism, psychopathic, and genocidal behavior. Like most Christians I knew and still come across now and then, I blamed humanity and the devil (Satan), believing God was justified in being a &#%!@! SOB. And it never occurred to me to blame God, the Creator, for the world going to hell in a handbasket, or to believe that God creates evil, as Isaiah 45:7 clearly states in the King James Version of the Bible. It was unthinkable to me to even suggest that "the buck stops here!" with God. In essence, I was taught that we humans are the scum of the earth in comparison to God, deserving of his wrath for allegedly sinning against him. The teaching that we are essentially the scum of the earth in comparison to God is based primarily on Isaiah 64:6, which states, "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and our sins sweep us away like the wind" (New International Version). I was taught to literally fear God, and I did, to the point where I had awful nightmares.

The whole "God is love" theme is the crux of Christianity and the core message of Christian evangelism. It's part of the evangelical strategy a lot of Christians will use to entice unbelievers into converting to Christianity. Of course, they are more likely to attract potential converts with feel-good messages like "God is love!" or "God loves you!" rather than with a message like this: "God is love, but you should know that the Bible says that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities." So, just ignore that part. And while you're at it, ignore the scriptures about God forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist, dashing infants' heads against rocks, ordering the death of witches, ordering the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and infant from another nation, and finally, ignore the verses where it says that God killed every living person on earth, with the exception of one family, in a global flood. It's as if most Christians want unbelievers to focus on and believe only the positive verses about God's so-called love and mercy while ignoring the negative ones revealing his sadistic and psychopathic behavior toward humanity, as well as his barbaric, bloodthirsty, and genocidal behavior of killing people (including children) with impunity. I know Christians who want to portray Christianity in the very best light possible.

If the essential Christian evangelical ploy for attracting converts included some of the horrific stories in the Bible, then how many converts do you think they would attract and convince to convert to Christianity? It's understandable that Christians will adamantly deny that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities. As a former devout Christian myself, I know that it is much easier on a Christian's conscience to blame humanity and/or the devil for all the evil in the world than to blame a "loving and merciful" God that a Christian genuinely believes in and has faith in. I think that it stands to reason that most devout Christians and even the newer versions of the Bible would replace the word "evil" with a less offensive word, like disaster or calamity. Most Christians expect unbelievers to believe the Bible to be true, but they can't even agree on what it actually teaches. And most Christians I've met will insist that the Bible is only the divinely inspired "Word of God" when they agree with certain scriptures. Otherwise, they claim that the scriptures that they don't believe in weren't inspired by God but were rather written by mere mortal men who obviously misunderstood what God was saying.

Isaiah 45:7

KJV: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Evil:
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked, 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful, 3. Characterized by or indicating misfortune; ominous.

NIV: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

Disaster:
1. An occurrence causing widespread destruction and distress; a catastrophe; 2. A grave misfortune, and 3. A total failure.

ESV: "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Calamity: 1. An event that brings terrible loss, lasting distress, or severe affliction; a disaster, 2. Dire distress resulting from loss or tragedy; 3. Any great misfortune or cause of misery; in general, any event or disaster which produces extensive evils, as loss of crops, earthquakes, etc., but also applied to any misfortune which brings great distress on a person; misfortune; distress; adversity.
 
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John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I find that 'oodles of hope' is because of the teaching about Resurrection Day.
(Resurrection Day meaning the coming of Jesus governing over Earth for a thousand years - John 6:40,44; Acts 24:15)
Without a future hope of living then only death enters the picture, death with No hope.
Without any resurrection there is No point but to eat and drink because tomorrow one would be gone forever.

Glad it works for you, I found the idea of waiting around to die before things got better to be the root cause of a depressing feeling of hopelessness.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your OP talks about apparent choices that bring no good results. I can't help but suspect that I would not call them choices at all. If a direction brings no results that I would want, there is a real chance that I won't think of that direction as a choice in the first place.
If it was not what I chose to do, what was it?
I wish you do not burden yourself with heavy feelings from decisions that may not even be real.
I do not understand what you mean. :confused:
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
So God is the equivalent of an anti-depressant, for you?

I agree with @Twilight Hue. I think what you said is pretty accurate too.

That's pretty accurate.

God is essentially a mental Valium.

As a former Christian, I believe that believing in and having faith in God is an emotional crutch that can be extremely difficult for some Abrahamic theists (Christian, Baha'i, Muslim) to let go of due to indoctrination they've been subjected to at some point in their lives. It was certainly the case in my life when I was a Christian trying to detox from my Christian faith and free myself from it, and it was the same for other former Christians that I supported in their focused efforts to renounce their Christian faith and leave Christianity too.

To be honest, it was very difficult for me to ever question God, the Bible, and what I believed as a Christian because I was raised in the church and indoctrinated to believe in God no matter what. I was taught to believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that I should never question its authority and accuracy. I was also taught to never question God in any way, and I was shamed by other Christians when I did. So, I quickly learned to keep my doubts and questions to myself while I was growing up. Unfortunately, this mentality stuck with me for the majority of my adult life, and I was a Christian for 30 years. I always felt shame and guilt whenever I questioned God, so I pushed my doubts to the back of my mind and tried to ignore them. But I lived with the nagging feeling that I was ignoring my doubts, and that made me feel sad and confused. Long story short, a little over a year and a half ago, I finally got to a breaking point where I decided that I wasn't going to ignore my doubts anymore. I decided I was going to face them, come what may, and I did.

I began to examine and re-examine everything that I believed about God, the Bible, and everything else I believed as a Christian. As I said, it was very difficult for me, but I had my beloved, loving husband to help me get through it. I think of myself as a prime example of how deeply a person can be brainwashed and ensnared by a religion. My belief and faith in God were deeply entrenched in my psyche, and it was almost impossible for me to leave it behind. I compare my emotional dependence on God to being locked in a prison cell, except the door to my cell was open, but I never realized that I could leave whenever I wanted to. Being a devout Christian was detrimental to my emotional, mental, and physical health, and letting go of my faith was the best decision that I've ever made.

I lost count of how many times I prayed to God in Jesus' name when I was a child and teenager, pleading with God in Jesus' name to save me from being abused by my adopted mother and adopted older brother (see here). I prayed to God in Jesus' name, pleading with God to save me from being bullied and harassed in school. For me, praying to God was like praying to a brick wall and expecting the wall to answer, because in spite of all the years I prayed to God in Jesus' name, I suffered abuse at home for 13 1/2 years and I was bullied in school for 12 years. I finally came to the realization that God wasn't ever going to save me, so I stopped praying to him for a couple of years. I lost hope in him and I resigned myself to the life I knew I could never escape until I turned eighteen years old.

I saved myself shortly after I turned 18 when I physically confronted my abusive older brother and told him that I would call the police on him if he ever laid hands on me again. I'm pleased to say that my forceful confrontation with him also made a lasting impression on my adopted mother, because she never laid a hand on me again either. Neither would stay in the same room with me after that.

I had lost my hope in God, but I had been indoctrinated into believing in him no matter what, so I foolishly became a Christian when I was 17. As the Bible states in Romans 10:9-13 about getting saved, I believed in my heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and I declared him Lord. I still remember the moment I prayed to be saved vividly because I felt absolutely nothing in my heart when I accepted Jesus. I didn't feel the peace, joy, or hope that I was expecting to feel after hearing other Christians talk about how they felt such peace and joy in their hearts when they accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. I wanted that more than anything else in life. These Christians said that their burdens were lifted and they felt hope again. All I felt at the time was the usual pain and sadness.

I can't emphasize just how deeply disappointed I was when I didn't feel my burdens lifted or feel hope in God again. I was completely overwhelmed with sadness and a feeling of hopelessness. I foolishly held on to my Christian faith for the next 30 years while willingly ignoring the nagging reminder in my heart that God didn't save me when I was growing up. I was a very devout Christian because I had been taught that the more devout I was to God, the more likely he was to answer my prayers. The Bible states, "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective" (James 5:16), and I sincerely believed Jesus' promise, "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

I renounced my Christian faith and belief in God almost two years ago. It was very difficult for me to let go of my belief in God because I had believed in him all my life and had been a devout Christian for 30 years. As far as I'm concerned now, either the Christian God doesn't actually exist and I was a complete fool for believing he did, or the Christian God does exist and he's a malicious and sadistic monster who takes pleasure in watching me and the rest of humanity suffer. I'm now an agnostic regarding the biblical God, so I can go either way on this. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't need or want the Christian God in my life. If he does exist, then he can go to hell because I lived in a living hell of abuse, bullying, and neglect while I was growing up, and this so-called "loving and merciful" God didn't do a damn thing to help me or protect me, despite my pleading prayers to him while I was growing up, asking him to save me, and my sincere faith that he would never leave me or forsake me, or while I was an adult, still foolishly believing and trusting in God.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Debating free will is one of my favorite topics, but... I don't think that is really the crux of the issue. I don't know much about you, but let me tell you this: Many biblical characters didn't have the life they wanted.

The solution you are looking for is an adjustment to your life, something that will improve your life without a massive change in your lifestyle, but that's often not what the God of the bible grants. He often asks for life changing actions. Think of the apostles abandoning their previous lives.
First, let me say that I know myself very well, and I have analyzed my situation over and over again, so I know what I am capable of changing and not. As long as I am alone, I mean unmarried, I cannot see how my lifestyle can change very much, because I know I cannot change it all by myself. Moreover, I have no motivation to change it just for my own sake. Moreover, I am just treading water as it is, so making big changes is not realistic, at least not as long as I am a single woman.

Second, I am not a Christian, so I do not go by the Bible. I don't even know the Bible very well, but I surmise that if some of the biblical characters were unhappy and then then changed, in the Bible stories, that was to make the point that we need to sacrifice what we want for God. I have no problem with that, but I am not much good for service to God in my present state. The following quote just came to mind:

“In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.

Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.”

Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

Third, I am not on par with the apostles since I am not an apostle of Baha'u'llah. Nevertheless, I have been enjoined by Baha'u'llah to make sacrifices, although that does not include abandoning my previous life, not unless I choose to do so.

These are not the 'early days' of the Baha'i Faith. In the early days Baha'is made sacrifices similar to the apostles. That was called the Heroic Age of the Baha'i Faith.
Heroic Age - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

We still need to make sacrifices, but the nature of the sacrifices are different now because the Baha'i Faith is at a different stage of its development.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And another one who like to cherry pick which verses represent the truth and which don't. The Bible Buffet, I like to call it, where if you don't like the broccoli you don't have to bother with it.
I do not even go to the Bible Buffet, because I am not a Christian...

I go to the Baha'i Buffet, where the menu items we have to pick from is fresh and new...
Imo, the Bible Buffet should have been closed a long time ago, since the menu items have long since exceeded their shelf life.
 

Secret Chief

Veteran Member
I do not even go to the Bible Buffet, because I am not a Christian...

I go to the Baha'i Buffet, where the menu items we have to pick from is fresh and new...
Imo, the Bible Buffet should have been closed a long time ago, since the menu items have long since exceeded their shelf life.
You should come to the Zen Deli, where everything has no abiding selfhood, which means very low calorie and cholesterol. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Without a future hope of living then only death enters the picture, death with No hope.
Without any resurrection there is No point but to eat and drink because tomorrow one would be gone forever.
I do not live for a future afterlife, I live in the present. I am on earth for a purpose and I want to fulfill that purpose.

I also have hope that I will continue to live after I die, but not because my physical body will rise from the grave and go on living on earth. That is not what the Bible teaches.

Our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is in Heaven. Dead bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, Heaven. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and live forever. That is what the following verses say.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There was a time in my life where I waited around for years for god's help with a serious issue to no avail. After no help came, I rolled up my sleeves and learned to deal with it the best way I could. It could have ended up better, but it's been getting better year after year

"God helps those who help themselves" aint in the bible, but I feel that it should be. Waiting around for god did me no good, and I'm not fortunate or lucky enough to get what I need without serious effort. I make my own hope

That said, everyone has their own struggles in life. What works for me won't always work for others
There was a time in my life where I waited around for years for help from humans with a serious issue to no avail.
After no help came, I rolled up my sleeves and learned to deal with it the best way I could, and I also started to turn to God for help.

It was getting better year after year until my late husband passed on. Some of my struggles are still the same but now I have an added struggle.

"God helps those who help themselves" has always been my motto, and I think it is true. We have to try to help ourselves and that is why God gave us all free will.

That said, everyone has their own struggles in life. What works for me won't always work for others.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
My take is, Bahaullah out of His wisdom, did not want us to be hopeless. He wanted us to have a hope that, if we pray to God, He may change things. But in reality, in my current understanding, whatever is predestined by God, so, shall be it. I currently have no hope, that if I pray, God will change what was destined to happen.
So, are you saying that Baha'u'llah gave us false hope when He wrote the following?

"The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."

Let's say that God changed His decree after we prayed. That would not necessarily mean that the decree that was impending was not the best decree. It could be that another decree would be just as good for us, and God had mercy on us and changed the original decree.
Prayer is only for a lover of God. Not to want anything to be changed. Rather to be in submission to God's will and accept it. I could be wrong though. But currently that's my conclusions.
I agree with that, and that is why I never pray for anything in particular and hope it will come to fruition.
I only pray for guidance and assistance. I also cry out for help when I get to the end of my rope, hoping for help, but I accept whatever help comes my way. Usually it is better than anything I could have imagined.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
So, are you saying that Baha'u'llah gave us false hope when He wrote the following?

"The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."

Let's say that God changed His decree after we prayed. That would not necessarily mean that the decree that was impending was not the best decree. It could be that another decree would be just as good for us, and God had mercy on us and changed the original decree.

I agree with that, and that is why I never pray for anything in particular and hope it will come to fruition.
I only pray for guidance and assistance. I also cry out for help when I get to the end of my rope, hoping for help, but I accept whatever help comes my way. Usually it is better than anything I could have imagined.
There is a Tablet of Baha'u'llah, that He narrated how He was poisoned by Yahya Azal, His half brother. He said there was no hope, and doctors had no cure for Him. Then the doctor prayed to God, that instead of Baha'u'llah, God sacrifices himself. Then God accepted his request. The doctor died and Baha'u'llah survived. Now, when I read this story, I thought by myself, would have God allowed His Messenger die before completing His mission? What if that doctor did not ask God? The answer that I could reach to, was, whatever happened was a predestination. God from beginning that has no beginning had ordained that once Baha'u'llah comes, He gets poisoned and then a doctor prays that he may be sacrificed instead. It is like film scenario, that is written, and so shall it happen.
Our prayers is no different perhaps than this story...
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
It's a hard high to come down from when I had to become atheist about supreme beings in my youth. Now I look to myself to create meaning in my life. With my disabilities that becomes a challenge. I do wish that my atheism would just get resolved and go away. I have other independent religious convictions.

I was never a Christian, and I don't see anything special about the Jesus I have read in the Bible without adding my own sense of profoundness to my interpretation of it.

Anything that claims truth comes from Abrahamic religions I lose interest in.

I would prefer God to be totally relatable and accessible to common, ordinary people in their own self searching. That would make God less imaginative, exclusive, and distant.

I can conceive of moral excellence and perfection, and that gives me some hope. I just don't feel like human nature and its plight on earth is conducive to higher pursuits. Higher pursuits take a great deal of sacrifice, and one may never ever see the fruits, and results of them in this life. That to me is the reality of higher pursuits. Higher pursuits can also lead to self neglect if you are not careful.

Humans need feedback I think. And if there is a God I'm not getting any feedback. I suffice to say, I am what I am, and only real and true things have the ability to change me.

I have discovered the meaning of holiness, and virtues that I find to be perfectly consistent. But having an human body doesn't make the pursuit of truth easy at all.

I know if there is a God he/she/it would want us all to take care of ourselves and live a moral life; as living an immoral life leads to ruin and severe consequences. I would hope God speaks a universal language, and nothing tribal.

One thing I ask myself is what are my highest desires for me and others, and I've learned not to expect anything and let people live their truth the best way they see fit so long as it don't interfere with health and well being.

I wouldn't expect a God to ask me to convert other people. That to me sounds like fantasy. The best I can do is offer food for thought, or let it be discarded. The best I can do is act on the good I know to do.

I would hope God expects us all to generate our own meanings and purposes in light of what is truly good. One thing I don't see is a God handling the affairs of Earth. Another thing is this creation is far from supreme.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I wouldn't disagree with any of that. But I don't see how it fits your prior assertion, that there is something inherently wrong about reading The Bible selectively, and disregarding those verses or passages that may be the most troublesome to us, from our 21st Century perspective.
You are ignoring the fact (and it is a fact) that the majority of people in the world in which I live (North America) attach a highly biased acceptance that scripture (the Bible) is somehow much more important, much more "true," much more "the mind of God" than they do other texts. I suspect, actually (correct me if I'm wrong) that you do the same -- that a passage in the Bible that feels right and true to you is of somehow greater value than a passage in Shakespeare or the Humanist Manifesto that you also feel may be right and true.

And I think you know that this lets people suppose that -- because it's scripture -- it "ought to be the law." And that is when it becomes dangerous.

For the Humanist, who really has no "scripture," a good idea is a good idea no matter where it comes from, and a bad idea is a bad idea even if it's in the Bible (or the Humanist Manifesto -- though I can't think of one there ). For us, the way to decide on the worth of any idea, from whatever source, is our analysis of how it impacts on the well-being of all of humanity -- including the people many, like Christians, Muslims and Republicans would like to villify and turn into threats to frighten their bases into conformity.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It is difficult to reply to what you are saying when it is not obvious from what you write, what exactly you would like changed in your life and in which way you believe that it has failed, or even which steps you have taken to change it.

There are many factors involved here depending on what we are talking about. The stuff you want to be changed might have failed because your initial approach was wrong, so maybe it was doomed from the beginning. It might also be that what you are trying to change is simply not easy to change or it takes a lot of time etc.
The situation is very complicated but I will try to explain it in brief. Since you are so logical and I am trying to be logical maybe you can help me come up with some ideas.

My late husband passed on last July and it was quite sudden so I had no time to prepare emotionally or in any other way. I still have a pending malpractice lawsuit because of the circumstances surrounding his death, so this is not a simple grief and loss situation. On top of that, things were not good with his mental-emotional health leading up to his death and our marriage and home situation was not good either, not for a very long time.

I have been trying to pick up the pieces and go on because I really have no other choice. My initial choice and the only choice I thought I had was to find another man to marry because, not so much because I feel lonely, but because I could not envision myself continuing to live alone in this big house and taking care of all these cats all by myself. Mind you, I am not doing any more than I was doing when my husband was alive, I am probably doing less, because before his death I was doing everything I am doing now and also taking care of him. I have anxiety as a diagnosis but my anxiety is a lot less now that he is gone and I have dealt with most things one has to deal with after a death in the family.

Since you are an atheist maybe you won't fully understand but since you are my friend and you are very intelligent so I am going to try to explain this. Both me and my late husband were Baha'is and had been for all of our adult lives. That and our love for the cats were the glue that held us together. Not all Baha'is are alike in their attitude towards the material world but my late husband were very much alike in that we both hated it with a passion! We loved the cats but that was all.

We often has conversations about how I hated this life but I did not want to go to the afterlife either. The difference between us is that he hated this life but he looked forward to going to the afterlife, and he was doing everything to hasten his demise, like refusing to eat. He was suicidal but now I will never know the exact reasons why. It was nothing I was doing or not doing. I was taking care of everything and he lived the life of Riley. He was not physically sick with anything serious until the very end after the cancer had spread.

Now he got his wish because he is in the next world and I am here to contend with life all by myself. The thing is that he did not care about leaving me all alone, he just wanted out of here. He refused to eat and refused any treatment for the cancer, but I think he died of starvation, not cancer. I'll get to the bottom of this eventually.

Under these circumstances, why should I feel guilty about wanting to get remarried? My counselor had been following this before his death and she even knew him and talked to him, and she agrees that he just wanted to die. Moreover, she thinks it is a good idea for me to remarry as it is high time I had some happiness in life.

You were correct in saying that what I wanted to be changed failed because my initial approach was wrong, so it was doomed from the beginning. What was doomed was thinking I was going to find a man to marry on a dating site, like ordering up a pizza. I was very naive, but then what did I have to go on? I had been married for 37 years and I never dated before that. I was introduced to my husband by my mother and sister and we got married three weeks later.

The online dating scene has been an absolute nightmare! I have posted several threads about it from time to time. At the outset I was hit up on by con men who lied to me and I believed them since I was not suspicious until they asked me for money. I never gave any man any money but the con men just kept coming. It was as if there is nothing but con men on dating sites! I am not bad looking and I have many good qualities, why is this so difficult? I know other people who have met a partner on a dating site and got married.

But it was not only the con men, but the crazy man I met on one dating site. I did not know he was crazy just from the phone conversations, which was the only communication we had, because he did not say that much that would indicate that he is crazy. But now that he has sent me e-mails and letters I know for sure he is mentally deranged and a thoroughly selfish manipulator, so that is completely over, even though he is still sending me e-mails and letters.

I forgot to mention that an additional problem I have with dating sites, and it would be the same with meeting a man in person, is that all men expect sex, and Baha'is don't have sex out of wedlock. I simply cannot understand why men who are as old as me or older still consider sex so important, especially the men who consider themselves spiritual. I might want sex if I get married but I do not consider it important. I once did but I am way past that age and stage of my life. There are so many more important things in life.

As you said, what I am trying to change is simply not easy to change and even if it can be changed it might take a lot of time, so I guess what I need is more patience. Maybe there is a man for me or not but I cannot order one up like a burger. Just because it was easy when I first got married does not mean it will ever be that easy again. That was a fluke and I consider it an example of fate.

But it is also that I am not sure what I want to do with my life whether I am single or married. Mind you, I did not know what I wanted to do when my late husband was still alive, but at least I did not have an additional problem of being all alone. I am still working full time at age 70 and I do not see any retirement in sight. I don't need the money at all, but I have nothing else I want to do that I could do alone. I do not have any girlfriends, I did everything with my late husband who was also my best friend. And no, it is not much easier to order up friends than it is to order up a husband.
Obviously, as an atheist, I have no fate in God doing anything, but nonetheless, we can have "fate" and probably more correct to call it to hope that certain things will go our way. But usually, this simply means that things occur in such a way that it ends up benefitting us in a positive way. So there is no higher power or anything behind it, the closest you could probably get is to just refer to it as luck.
It does not matter if God is involved in our fate because it all amounts to the same thing. Things go our way or they do not. After all, nobody could ever prove a God is involved, so that is just a belief.
So without really thinking about it too much, I think all atheists in general will approach problems with the basic idea that we have to stack or prepare things to be in our favour and those things for which we have no control, as it might depend on other humans or some other external factor, that they for whatever reason "vote" or act in our favour.
I think that believers approach life pretty much the same way except that in the back of their minds there is the belief that an additional player is involved, God, kind of like an invisible friend who is all-powerful.
But relying on fate, I think most if not all atheists would agree is probably the worse approach one can take because that is basically to just hope that things go your way without any good reason to believe that. So an atheist reaching this point in a process, I think is somewhat equal to saying that such a person has given up or they have reached a point where they don't know how to solve something, in which case, it might be a good idea to get advice from other people. Either to simply get a fresh perspective or maybe from someone that has been in or dealt with something similar and how they "stacked" things in their favour so to speak or maybe professional help if that is what is needed.
That is a good point. When I thought to post this and title it 'Without God there is no hope' I was feeling pretty hopeless. I still feel pretty hopeless because I have no reason to have hope? If anything got better I would have a reason to hope, but I don't see that happening. It is just the same old humdrum existence day after day.

If fate is hoping that things will go my way without any good reason to believe that, that is the same as what I was doing before with the dating sites. Do you see the similarity? What reason do I have to hope that anything will go my way even if I take certain actions?

I have reached a point where I don't know how to solve this, if there is even any solution, so maybe posting this was my indirect way of trying to get ideas or even advice from other people. I wish I could get a fresh perspective from someone that has been in or dealt with something similar. I attended a widows group and a grief-share group, but so far it has not helped me figure out what to do with my life since that is not what the groups are for. The other problem is that I know no widows my age that share my predicament because everyone has children and grandchildren, family and friends to help them, and I have nobody. There might be a few other people like me somewhere, but how would I find them? I do have a counselor I met with every two weeks, but she only gives me feedback on what I tell her, she doesn't have any suggestions I have not already thought of.
So again there are many things that can play a part in why something doesn't go the way we would like, but to me at least the solution is to figure out why, where and what went wrong and then try again.
I have some idea what went wrong and why, on the dating sites, but I am in no hurry to keep trying because I feel like I am beating my head against a stone wall, and I am in between a rock and a hard place since I cannot imagine living alone forever. My counselor thinks I should keep trying to find a man but I need to try something different. I really would prefer to marry a Baha'i but they are scarcer than hen's teeth so that is another problem. I am sure there are some Baha'i men in my age bracket who want to get married but finding them is another story. On the two Baha'i dating sites all I got was con men pretending to be Baha'is!

Sorry for the book, the unabridged edition. :D
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I believe that’s called practicing discernment.

Whereas rejecting a centuries old compendium of literature in it’s entirety because you can’t reconcile yourself to a handful of verses, is called throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I could perhaps agree if it did not turn out that said book had little if anything of constructive use that can't be found in better and clearer form elsewhere.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There is a Tablet of Baha'u'llah, that He narrated how He was poisoned by Yahya Azal, His half brother. He said there was no hope, and doctors had no cure for Him. Then the doctor prayed to God, that instead of Baha'u'llah, God sacrifices himself. Then God accepted his request. The doctor died and Baha'u'llah survived. Now, when I read this story, I thought by myself, would have God allowed His Messenger die before completing His mission? What if that doctor did not ask God? The answer that I could reach to, was, whatever happened was a predestination. God from beginning that has no beginning had ordained that once Baha'u'llah comes, He gets poisoned and then a doctor prays that he may be sacrificed instead. It is like film scenario, that is written, and so shall it happen.
Our prayers is no different perhaps than this story...
Yes, I can see how everything could be predestined. I wrote something for the OP but later I edited my post but I saved it in a Word document in case I wanted to post it later.

Now I am thinking more along these lines. I had these two paragraphs right below the passage from Gleanings. Tell me what you think.

What I believe that means is that whatever I desire and whatever I attempt to do using my free will won’t come to fruition unless it has been fated by God. If God has a particular fate in mind for me maybe there is hope that my life will go in the direction I want it to, but if it is not God’s will that my life goes in that direction, it won’t go in that direction, no matter what I do. What I mean is that I can keep trying to make certain things happen the way I want them to happen, but if they are not what God has willed, they will not happen that way.

That does that mean I just sit around doing nothing. I still have to live my life and act as if I have some control over my life, but ultimately, I don’t believe I have much control over my own life, because I am not the one in the driver’s seat determining what direction the car will go or where it will end up. God is in the driver’s seat God has already put the directions and the destination into His GPS. I am in the passenger’s seat along for the ride, and all I can do is look for signs of God’s guidance along the road, pray and ask for assistance from God.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Eh... When it comes to jobs or things like that, maybe, but when it comes to issues like one's living situation or mental health that's a whole different can of worms
Oh, absolutely!

But looking for a job is equivalent to you "rolling up your sleeves and learning to deal with it the best way you could".

You did not lie around moaning, "Poor me! I have no one to help me!!" :anguished:
 
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