Without God there is no hope

[YoursTrue]

The problem is that people have relied on that idea for the last couple of thousand years yet it doesn't seem to go anywhere. Hope is not a bad thing, but it might not be the best thing to rely on if there are other options

I understand. But I believe we're living in a foretold period of time. Just thinking about one thing, I've been reading about the atmosphere being destroyed because of farming and I am pretty sure no one can stop it because people are not willing to change. That's just one example. But the Bible gives me hope that there is coming a time these selfish actions will not happen. John relates: “But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” (Revelation 11:18)

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I can see how everything could be predestined. I wrote something for the OP but later I edited my post but I saved it in a Word document in case I wanted to post it later.

Now I am thinking more along these lines. I had these two paragraphs right below the passage from Gleanings. Tell me what you think.

What I believe that means is that whatever I desire and whatever I attempt to do using my free will won’t come to fruition unless it has been fated by God. If God has a particular fate in mind for me maybe there is hope that my life will go in the direction I want it to, but if it is not God’s will that my life goes in that direction, it won’t go in that direction, no matter what I do. What I mean is that I can keep trying to make certain things happen the way I want them to happen, but if they are not what God has willed, they will not happen that way.

That does that mean I just sit around doing nothing. I still have to live my life and act as if I have some control over my life, but ultimately, I don’t believe I have much control over my own life, because I am not the one in the driver’s seat determining what direction the car will go or where it will end up. God is in the driver’s seat God has already put the directions and the destination into His GPS. I am in the passenger’s seat along for the ride, and all I can do is look for signs of God’s guidance along the road, pray and ask for assistance from God.

Not everything is predestined. For instance we can make choices. I can only share with you what a person said to me years ago when I needed help about God. He said only God can give me the gift of faith. I was taken aback because I didn't believe in God at the time. But finally as a result of that discussion, I prayed for the first time in years.

 

[Nimos]

I understand. But I believe we're living in a foretold period of time. Just thinking about one thing, I've been reading about the atmosphere being destroyed because of farming and I am pretty sure no one can stop it because people are not willing to change. That's just one example. But the Bible gives me hope that there is coming a time these selfish actions will not happen. John relates: “But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” (Revelation 11:18)

But the problem is that it is a lot more complicated than that. Because people want cheap food and in order to do that we need effective food production and in many cases this means fewer ecological production methods. The main problem as I see it, is that we have created a self-destructive system in a sense. Consumers want cheap food and the people producing it wants to make a good profit, but at the same time, we also need to feed everyone. So it's too easy to just point fingers at the farmers because they and everyone else are trying to survive in the system we have created.

 

[John53]

Of course it could be that, but by the same token it could be that they were misinterpreting my OP.

Understandable if they do. I answered your claim in the title to be told it's not what you mean. I can't for the life of me work out what "Without God there is no hope" means.

 

[John53]

No, No, No. Not waiting around to die because in Scripture Jesus' coming Glory Time of separation as found at Matthew 25:31-34,37 is near at hand.
The figurative separated living 'sheep' can remain alive on Earth, and be here on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental reign over Earth.
The purpose of the thousand years is that Jesus will end 'enemy death' on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
Mankind will see the return of the ' Tree of Life ' on Earth - Revelation 22:14,2
So, instead of waiting around to die it is waiting to live - Proverbs 22:4 B; Proverbs 2:21-22 - live life forever.
Live forever under beautiful healthy paradisical conditions as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

All you did was rearrange my words to make it it sound nicer. I see no evidence for an afterlife and even less for some magical paradise.

 

[Trailblazer]

Understandable if they do. I answered your claim in the title to be told it's not what you mean. I can't for the life of me work out what "Without God there is no hope" means.

I explained what the means to me in the first paragraph of my OP.

 

[John53]

I explained what the means to me in the first paragraph of my OP.

That's the problem with click bait.

 

[Truthseeker]

I am not making a claim, I am only expressing a feeling, and I could be wrong so I am open to other perspectives. This is only the way I am feeling now, based upon my trying to change certain things and being unable to do so. In short, I feel completely stuck, like I have no control over my own life, and I feel like God is the only one who can help me. Everything I have tried to do goes to hell in a breadbasket so I have resigned myself to hoping that God will help me by guiding me to decide what to do and assisting me to do it, or that God will help me via fate, by causing things to happen to me.

I believe that everyone's fate is already written in the Book of Life, which is the Tablet of Fate.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.

Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133

Then there is the question: What is caused by God's decree and what is caused by a free will choice? I think some things happen to us that are not decreed by God, they are chosen by us, and some things that we do not choose are decreed by God.

Moreover, even if something is decreed by God, not everything that is decreed by God is fixed and settled. The passage above says that the decree that is impending is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it, so I might be able to influence God’s decree that is impending by praying to God.

What is the connection between fate and free will? How can we have free will if everything is predetermined by God? I believe that God is all-knowing so God knows everything we are going to do, and that has already been written on the Tablet of Fate, but I do not believe that what God knows causes anyone to do anything. I believe things happen because we make a choice to do them and act on that choice.

Is what ends up being written on the Tablet of Fate simply what God knows we are going to choose to do? But what about things that happen to us that are not chosen by us? I think those things are also our fate. In short, I think there is the fate we choose and the fate we don't choose, and I think the passage above is referring to the fate we don't choose, the fate we are hoping to avert, God's decree.

The whole thing is complicated, but I think you nailed it.

 

[Truthseeker]

God might help me with what I need or not. I am not counting on it, but it's for darn tootin' that nobody else is going to help me.

Overstated, perhaps. But, in a sense, when someone helps you that is God helpng through that person sometimes. I dfon't know about always. Perhaps.

 

[Truthseeker]

I believe God is all-loving so I have hope that God will help me...
That is more than I can say for most people.

I missed when you started believing that God is all-loving. Someone on Reddit convinced you of that? I wasn't paying close enough attention. This post there tells me something:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comm.../?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Wow, someone gave you an interpetation of Arabic Hidden Word #3 that gave you something. As an expert in the Hidden Words, I am humbled.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You are ignoring the fact (and it is a fact) that the majority of people in the world in which I live (North America) attach a highly biased acceptance that scripture (the Bible) is somehow much more important, much more "true," much more "the mind of God" than they do other texts. I suspect, actually (correct me if I'm wrong) that you do the same -- that a passage in the Bible that feels right and true to you is of somehow greater value than a passage in Shakespeare or the Humanist Manifesto that you also feel may be right and true.

And I think you know that this lets people suppose that -- because it's scripture -- it "ought to be the law." And that is when it becomes dangerous.

For the Humanist, who really has no "scripture," a good idea is a good idea no matter where it comes from, and a bad idea is a bad idea even if it's in the Bible (or the Humanist Manifest -- though I can't think of one there ). For us, the way to decide on the worth of any idea, from whatever source, is our analysis of how it impacts on the well-being of all of humanity -- including the people many, like Christians, Muslims and Republicans would like to villify and turn into threats to frighten their bases into conformity.

Your suspicions, assumptions and projections regarding what I believe are, I can assure you, almost entirely erroneous.

You seem to be allowing a very deep prejudice against a very narrow definition of religion, to cloud your perception of all spiritual and religious people.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Glad it works for you, I found the idea of waiting around to die before things got better to be the root cause of a depressing feeling of hopelessness.

Good song though, tbf…

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes. I had to go to another forum to get additional help but they convinced me that God is loving.

And it wasn't me. Humble pie.

 

[Truthseeker]

God is essentially a mental Valium.

Sounds familiar. "God is the opiate of the people".

 

[RestlessSoul]

I could perhaps agree if it did not turn out that said book had little if anything of constructive use that can't be found in better and clearer form elsewhere.

Find me a poem in all of literature which offers a troubled soul clearer and simpler comfort than Psalm 23, and perhaps I’ll be able to agree with you.

And if you can find me any work of literature, in any genre, with an opening to match the first three verses of Genesis, and a final chapter to rival the wild visionary madness of Revelation, and I’ll certainly read it cover to cover.

 

[John53]

Good song though, tbf…

Although country and western is less objectionable to my ears than jazz or rap it's not really my thing.

 

[YoursTrue]

But the problem is that it is a lot more complicated than that. Because people want cheap food and in order to do that we need effective food production and in many cases this means fewer ecological production methods. The main problem as I see it, is that we have created a self-destructive system in a sense. Consumers want cheap food and the people producing it wants to make a good profit, but at the same time, we also need to feed everyone. So it's too easy to just point fingers at the farmers because they and everyone else are trying to survive in the system we have created.

The problem is that mankind needs God and is not serving itself with best interests in mind and practice.

 

[Trailblazer]

Overstated, perhaps. But, in a sense, when someone helps you that is God helpng through that person sometimes. I dfon't know about always. Perhaps.

That's true, when someone helps me that is God helping me through that person, but if nobody helps me that does not mean God is not helping me since God is not responsible for people who choose not to help me.

I hope that made sense. I just got back from grocery shopping and unloading a boatload of groceries.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Although country and western is less objectionable to my ears than jazz or rap it's not really my thing.

In my opinion great artists transcend their genres, but fair enough.

 

[Trailblazer]

I missed when you started believing that God is all-loving. Someone on Reddit convinced you of that? I wasn't paying close enough attention. This post there tells me something:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comm.../?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Wow, someone gave you an interpetation of Arabic Hidden Word #3 that gave you something. As an expert in the Hidden Words, I am humbled.

That Hidden Word is not what convinced me that God is loving, so you are not falling down on the job.

I have read that Hidden Word dozens of times before and it did no good. It was something some people said that convinced me but I cannot remember exactly what it was now. Something clicked in my head and after that I was able to separate the suffering in the world from God. I also realized that there is no reason WHY God is loving, loving is just an attribute of God, just like omnipotent and omniscient are attributes of God.

One reason I have had a problem with believing God loves me because I never felt that my parents loved me. Also it has proven out that nobody else loves me for myself either, all men want is sex or money. I don't even know if Lewis loved me. You are the only person who I feel actually loves me for myself, platonic of course.