Without trust in God, I would have no hope

[Kathryn]

Here's how I feel about God, prayers, etc:

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, THY WILL BE DONE, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and deliver us from evil. For the kingdom, and the power and the glory are yours now and forever, Amen.

 

[Koldo]

Well, there is no evidence for either.

Methodological naturalism doesn't require evidence per se, for it relates to a method.

As for generic realism as a whole, evidence can't even exist to prove it because treating something as evidence would require accepting that something objectively exists in the first place.

This is fundamentally different from asking (or expecting) for evidence regarding the supernatural.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Methodological naturalism doesn't require evidence per se, for it relates to a method.

As for generic realism as a whole, evidence can't even exist to prove it because treating something as evidence would require accepting that something objectively exists in the first place.

This is fundamentally different from asking (or expecting) for evidence regarding the supernatural.

No, it is not. You assume that the universe is in effect natural, real, orderly and knowable, but that is an assumption without evidence just as God.

 

[Koldo]

No, it is not. You assume that the universe is in effect natural, real, orderly and knowable, but that is an assumption without evidence just as God.

Evidence can be presented to corroborate with the claim that God exists (or doesn't). However, it doesn't even make sense to think of evidence when it comes down to objective realism as a whole.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Evidence can be presented to corroborate with the claim that God exists (or doesn't). However, it doesn't even make sense to think of evidence when it comes down to objective realism as a whole.

That is a subjective answer in you. I do it differently.

 

[Koldo]

That is a subjective answer in you. I do it differently.

I am sorry but that is an evasive answer that doesn't address the issue at hand.

Evidences are facts that support a given conclusion. If we presume that facts about the objective world exist, then we can ask for them to support the claim that God exists.

If however we are in a state of doubt concerning the very existence of facts themselves then being presented something as a fact would only result in us doubting that it is indeed a fact, and if we doubt that it is a fact then it is not evidence. Therefore, no evidence could exist, not even in principle, to prove the existence of an objective reality.

This is why I am saying the scenarios at hand are fundamentally different. In one of those cases, the evidence couldn't exist, not even in principle.

Plus, asking for evidence also only makes sense in the context of empiricism, where sensory experience is deemed as an essential method to achieve knowledge. Since you reject any kind of authority to sensory experiences, you reject empiricism.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I am sorry but that is an evasive answer that doesn't address the issue at hand.

Evidences are facts that support a given conclusion. If we presume that facts about the objective world exist, then we can ask for them to support the claim that God exists.

If however we are in a state of doubt concerning the very existence of facts themselves then being presented something as a fact would only result in us doubting that it is indeed a fact, and if we doubt that it is a fact then it is not evidence. Therefore, no evidence could exist, not even in principle, to prove the existence of an objective reality.

This is why I am saying the scenarios at hand are fundamentally different. In one of those cases, the evidence couldn't exist, not even in principle.

Plus, asking for evidence also only makes sense in the context of empiricism, where sensory experience is deemed as an essential method to achieve knowledge. Since you reject any kind of authority to sensory experiences, you reject empiricism.

No, I don't I consider it a belief system that seems to work, but it has limits even for the assumed everyday world.
Your hidden assumption is that we only ought to use your belief system as humans. The falsification of that is that I can do it differently.

 

[Koldo]

No, I don't I consider it a belief system that seems to work, but it has limits even for the assumed everyday world.
Your hidden assumption is that we only ought to use your belief system as humans. The falsification of that is that I can do it differently.

I have absolutely no idea of what you mean by this post.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I have absolutely no idea of what you mean by this post.

I get that. I will rewrite it.

No, I don't I consider it a belief system that seems to work, but it has limits even for the assumed everyday world.
Your hidden assumption is that we only ought to use your belief system as humans. The falsification of that is that I can do it differently.

No, I don't reject empiricism.
I consider it a belief system that seems to work, but it has limits even for the assumed everyday world.
Your hidden assumption is that we only ought to use your belief system as humans. The falsification of that is that I can do it differently.

 

[Revoltingest]

A lot of physicists reject that I know, but it's hard for me to see how the Universe booted itself into existence with physical laws already present. Where did the physical laws come from anyway?

Things hard to see raise questions.
Science offers no answer.
Therefore God....so say some.
But that too raises questions.
Whence booted that guy into existence?
Why a population of only one?

My approach to it all....
We & stuff are here, enjoying the laws of physics (whatever
they are). If we can't objectively answer the question of "Why?",
then it's useless to dwell on the question. And even worse to
presume a particular answer.

 

[Revoltingest]

Here's how I feel about God, prayers, etc:

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, THY WILL BE DONE, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and deliver us from evil. For the kingdom, and the power and the glory are yours now and forever, Amen.

We get our daily bread from Aldi.
Praise Aldi.
And Costco, & Meijer, & Tsai Grocery, & Menards.

Edit...
And Trader Joe's.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We get our daily bread from Aldi.
Praise Aldi.
And Costco, & Meijer, & Tsai Grocery, & Menards.

What do you think of Aldi and Trader Joe's?

 

[F1fan]

This is a continuation of a thread I started three months ago.
If you want to know why I would have no hope without trust in God you can read the OP of that thread:

Without God there is no hope

Please note that I was careful to change the title of this thread from Without God there is no hope to Without trust in God, I would have no hope, since I am only speaking for myself. I know that lots of people have hope without God, but I have no hope without God.

More and more I see the futility of trying to make things happen by virtue of my own free will. These are things I want but they are not fated by God to happen, at least not right now. As such, so all I can do is be patient and trust that God knows what is best for me, and that will unfold over the course of time. Without that trust in God, I would have no hope.

It is easy to have hope when you are happy and settled and have nothing to hope for, but it is not so easy when your life is up in the air.

“While a man is happy he may forget his God; but when grief comes and sorrows overwhelm him, then will he remember his Father who is in Heaven, and who is able to deliver him from his humiliations.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, pp. 50-51

This looks to be a learned dependency on God, which is a religious belief. As we observe God does not make miracles come true. God does not make a mortal any more capable than what they are. If anything the need to believe in a God, or have hope, is the self lacking self-confidence and self-eficacy and needing a sort of permission by the self for the sake of the self. It seems many religious people don't see themselves as worthy for their own sake, and use the idea of God instead, as if God is worthy, and working to please God is the only motivation. This is a lot of needless mental drama. But this is how people learn to cope and function even if it is dysfunctional and inevitably causing more stress than comfort. This pattern of behavior seems to be a cycle that the self can't move beyond since it is one of depencency. How can the self become self-reliant when the belief is that the self can't do anything without God? This is what is learned and it traps the person. This is one of the immoral things religion does to people. But of course, this doesn't happen without the self being complicit against themselves.

 

[F1fan]

What do you think of Aldi and Trader Joe's?

Depends upon what the almighty has on sale.

 

[Nakosis]

This is a continuation of a thread I started three months ago.
If you want to know why I would have no hope without trust in God you can read the OP of that thread:

Without God there is no hope

Please note that I was careful to change the title of this thread from Without God there is no hope to Without trust in God, I would have no hope, since I am only speaking for myself. I know that lots of people have hope without God, but I have no hope without God.

More and more I see the futility of trying to make things happen by virtue of my own free will. These are things I want but they are not fated by God to happen, at least not right now. As such, so all I can do is be patient and trust that God knows what is best for me, and that will unfold over the course of time. Without that trust in God, I would have no hope.

It is easy to have hope when you are happy and settled and have nothing to hope for, but it is not so easy when your life is up in the air.

“While a man is happy he may forget his God; but when grief comes and sorrows overwhelm him, then will he remember his Father who is in Heaven, and who is able to deliver him from his humiliations.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, pp. 50-51

You are right, it is not easy at first to step into the unknown without support but it gets easier with practice.

I wasn't exactly supported in my childhood so maybe it was easier for me to go forward on my own.

 

[Revoltingest]

What do you think of Aldi and Trader Joe's?

Both good.
Aldi is closer to us.
They do have a larger food selection than Menards,
but much worse for tools, lumber, electrical, plumbing,
landscaping, & masonry supplies.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Both good.
Aldi is closer to us.
They do have a larger food selection than Menards,
but much worse for tools, lumber, electrical, plumbing,
landscaping, & masonry supplies.

Yeah, they are both German companies as for Aldi and Trader Joe's and have a different concept than some US companies.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, they are both German companies as for Aldi and Trader Joe's.....

I'd heard of Aldi decades before we had one here.
And I've read of their origins.

 

[Koldo]

I get that. I will rewrite it.


No, I don't reject empiricism.
I consider it a belief system that seems to work, but it has limits even for the assumed everyday world.

Ah, then you are not that much of an skeptic as I thought you were. Ok then.

Your hidden assumption is that we only ought to use your belief system as humans. The falsification of that is that I can do it differently.

What belief system are you talking about? Empiricism?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Ah, then you are not that much of an skeptic as I thought you were. Ok then.

...

Well, I got tired of only doing everything is nothing but no knowledge, but since I don't believe in knowledge, I use blind faith.