Without trust in God, I would have no hope

[osgart]

This is a continuation of a thread I started three months ago.
If you want to know why I would have no hope without trust in God you can read the OP of that thread:

Without God there is no hope

Please note that I was careful to change the title of this thread from Without God there is no hope to Without trust in God, I would have no hope, since I am only speaking for myself. I know that lots of people have hope without God, but I have no hope without God.

More and more I see the futility of trying to make things happen by virtue of my own free will. These are things I want but they are not fated by God to happen, at least not right now. As such, so all I can do is be patient and trust that God knows what is best for me, and that will unfold over the course of time. Without that trust in God, I would have no hope.

It is easy to have hope when you are happy and settled and have nothing to hope for, but it is not so easy when your life is up in the air.

“While a man is happy he may forget his God; but when grief comes and sorrows overwhelm him, then will he remember his Father who is in Heaven, and who is able to deliver him from his humiliations.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, pp. 50-51

I've lived without God hope most of my life. I even hoped against hope for there to be a God. That didn't go well. One of my major stumbling blocks in life is that nothing is permanent. I could suffer permanent memory loss or eventually death. There's nothing sacred to hold onto other than what I choose as sacred, or what becomes sacred through living.

Life is a beautiful idea. If God runs this show I see it as being wasteful, and counter productive. God is not in nature is what I see.

As humans, all humans have many faults, and flaws, and are subject to blindness, errors, and mistakes. There's contrary paths in humanity of arrogance and hatred, vs. love and humility, and all points in between. There's lonely roads, crowded roads, and all kinds of paths to take.

I don't know if this is a good thing, but the divine truth sometimes makes me wonder if it's actually out there separate from the worlds. I keep holding onto the straw that there is some sort of a divine reality. I even hope it from time to time.

Then I look at the massive universal void, and all its chaos. I look at nature itself other than what humans have built, and I see aimlessness.

I see both divine truth, and total aimlessness, I see the wicked and the good, and live conflicted about God realities in my mind.

Why would such a world exist? Is there a truth going on in it that people can't see? Or, worse, is it a world where anything can happen for no good reasons at all? Is this life the point of it all?, Or is there another life that is the ultimate objective?

Do we create ourselves? Is there forces of good working on us? Is it only going to be what I make of it according to finite possibilities?

Where a person commits all there hopes and energies is very important while we are alive. Then there is the possibility that I've lived with false hopes in my life. Where do I put my ultimate desire, and is it an actual reality. Or am I living a dream that has no actuality.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

A lot of physicists reject that I know, but it's hard for me to see how the Universe booted itself into existence with physical laws already present. Where did the physical laws come from anyway? They get around that by saying, for example, that creation always existed. Why did creation always exist? I know their arguments pretty well. What they are saying, I know, that this is not absolute proof that God exists, and that could be the case. However, how did the academic and scientific community get to the point where absolute proof is needed in a material sense? This is the product of a materialistic mind set taught in Universities, and accepted a little too readily. They need to carefully examine the alternative.

Physics explain how the Universe exists, not why. And of course, a full explanation of why the Universe exists is a bit more complicated than just shouting the word GOD, but it's not really much more complex than understanding that humans in particular can raise or lower their status throughout their lifetimes, developing their own divinity as a result. Creating the divine is shaping God, and it is the reason why anything exists at all. I could go more in depth of this process, but I've already done so numerous times, as I have explained what the divine is in full detail already.

 

[Thrillobyte]

I believed in God and tried to trust in him for 60 years and it was a total waste. I never heard from God. He never answered any of my prayers. He didn't protect me from harm. In short, it was if he didn't even exist so that's what I decided: that he doesn't exist and that believe or not believe it would all be the same. And that's exactly what happened. 12 years later nothing has changed for me. My life goes on with no change resulting from my conversion to complete atheism. It's as if God didn't care an iota if I believed in him or didn't believe in him.

 

[F1fan]

Yeah, they are both German companies as for Aldi and Trader Joe's and have a different concept than some US companies.

So was Los Pollos Hermanos, so they have to be good, too.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since you can't afford to cease believing in God, you can't evaluate the evidence objectively. Your mind will push you towards belief to preserve your mental stability.

You do not know what "I" can afford to do, only I know that. I could just as easily say that you cannot afford to believe in God so you can't evaluate the evidence objectively, but I would never say that since I don't claim to know what is in your mind

I am not, however, saying that you would cease believing even if you could afford to do so. You could arrive at the same conclusion. But, since you can't afford to cease believing we will never know.

Why do you speak for me as if you know what is in my mind? You don't. Telling me what I can afford to do is also a personal boundary violation, if you know what that is.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.​

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45​

I believe in God because of the evidence for God, NOT because I cannot afford not to believe in God. If there was no evidence for God I would not believe in God so I would not trust in God. I have a reason to trust in God, because there is evidence for God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Desperate people are, well, desperate. They will sometimes grasp at straws that they wouldn't even take seriously when they're thinking clearly and not burdened by grief, panic, hunger, etc.

Some desperate people turn to God and some desperate people turn to drugs or alcohol.
I prefer to turn to God since that is where I will get the right kind of help.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Some desperate people turn to God and some desperate people turn to drugs or alcohol.

Indeed. All three are unhealthy coping strategies. Attempts at self-medication.

I prefer to turn to God since that is where I will get the right kind of help.

What help do you get from God?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So was Los Pollos Hermanos, so they have to be good, too.

I fail to see the relevance, but okay.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are right, it is not easy at first to step into the unknown without support but it gets easier with practice.

I wasn't exactly supported in my childhood so maybe it was easier for me to go forward on my own.

I did that for most of my life but self-reliance only took me so far.
No man is an island so even people who don't rely on God rely on other people.
There is nothing wrong with relying upon other people, so what is wrong with relying upon God?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I believed in God and tried to trust in him for 60 years and it was a total waste. I never heard from God. He never answered any of my prayers. He didn't protect me from harm. In short, it was if he didn't even exist so that's what I decided: that he doesn't exist and that believe or not believe it would all be the same. And that's exactly what happened. 12 years later nothing has changed for me. My life goes on with no change resulting from my conversion to complete atheism. It's as if God didn't care an iota if I believed in him or didn't believe in him.

I genuinely believed in God and tried to trust in him for about 40 years, and it was also a total waste of time for me as well. I was barely seven years old when I first prayed to God, asking him to stop my adoptive mother from hurting me. I remember telling God that my mother hurts me when she hits me. I told him that she hits me, screams at me, and she told me that I was a bad child. However, God never answered that prayer or any of the countless prayers I prayed as a child and teenager, asking him to protect me from my abusive mother and older brother, who both would hit me, bully me, degrade me, and threaten me. But, like my extended family, the neighbors, my teachers at school, the pastor and congregation at church, and everyone else in town who knew I was being abused, God never lifted a finger to defend and save me from being abused at home and bullied at school on a daily basis. Despite the abuse and bullying I was suffering at home and in school, I still sincerely believed in God and continued to pray to him for most of my life. I recall sitting in church while growing up and listening to a pastor talk about God's love and mercy and how we can pray to him in Jesus' name and he would help us.

I remember thinking about how often I sincerely prayed to God (completing the prayer with "in Jesus' name"), asking him to protect me, but nothing ever happened. I was abused at home for thirteen and a half years, and I endured bullying at school for twelve years. I recall some Christians telling me it was my fault that I was abused, bullied, and mistreated while growing up, either because I had unconfessed sin in my life (which evidently prevented God from protecting me) or because I lacked significant faith in God's ability to save me. And while that was hurtful, it was nothing in comparison to having a pastor call me a "cursed soul" and tell me that God hates me and that I suffered abuse because God was punishing me for the sins of my biological parents. He told me that there was nothing I could do to stop God from hating me. I believed him since the Bible says God hates and teaches about generational sins.

I began to genuinely believe in God when I was almost seven years old, after I went to church with my aunt. I became a Christian when I was seventeen, and I renounced my Christian faith when I was forty-seven. I was finally honest enough with myself to acknowledge and admit to myself that believing in God and having faith and trust in him was completely worthless and a total waste of my time. However, I have no doubt that renouncing my belief and faith in God was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being. It is only second to the decision I made shortly after turning eighteen to confront my abusive mother and brother. I saved myself from the abuse I was suffering at home. God had nothing to do with it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Indeed. All three are unhealthy coping strategies. Attempts at self-medication.

There is nothing unhealthy about relying upon God. That is just your biased personal opinion.

What help do you get from God?

Guidance, to know what I need to do and when.

 

[Nakosis]

I did that for most of my life but self-reliance only took me so far.
No man is an island so even people who don't rely on God rely on other people.
There is nothing wrong with relying upon other people, so what is wrong with relying upon God?

They'll let you down. Even God.
I apologize for my cynical nature but that's where am at.

Otherwise, I'm happy if your happy for as long as you can remain happy however you need to go about it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is nothing unhealthy about relying upon God. That is just your biased personal opinion.

Hey - you were the one who compared theism to drug and alcohol abuse.

Guidance, to know what I need to do and when.

God gives you guidance? How does he speak to you, exactly?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Indeed. All three are unhealthy coping strategies. Attempts at self-medication.

To be honest, I agree with all three, especially when it comes to relying on God. In my opinion, I am much better off emotionally and spiritually now that I have let go of my emotional dependence on God and learned to stand on my own and care for myself. Initially, it was extremely difficult for me because I had been firmly indoctrinated to believe in God, but I can say that it was well worth the struggle to be free of my dependence on God. And finally, if my personal journey of abandoning Christianity has taught me anything, it's to be more empathetic and supportive of those who have experienced the same struggle, are currently struggling with it, or are contemplating leaving Christianity. It can be very difficult to personally detox from religious indoctrination.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've lived without God hope most of my life. I even hoped against hope for there to be a God. That didn't go well.

I have 'believed' in God for all of my adult life but I did not have hope in God. I only recently started to have hope in God.
I hated God for many years and I even hoped against hope for there to be no God. That didn't go well, since I knew there was a God.

One of my major stumbling blocks in life is that nothing is permanent. I could suffer permanent memory loss or eventually death. There's nothing sacred to hold onto other than what I choose as sacred, or what becomes sacred through living.

I think that is true for all of us, nothing is permanent, although what we choose to hold sacred varies.

Life is a beautiful idea. If God runs this show I see it as being wasteful, and counter productive. God is not in nature is what I see.

I do not believe that God is running this show, I believe that humans are running it.

As humans, all humans have many faults, and flaws, and are subject to blindness, errors, and mistakes. There's contrary paths in humanity of arrogance and hatred, vs. love and humility, and all points in between. There's lonely roads, crowded roads, and all kinds of paths to take.

That's true. There are many paths to take. God gave us all free will so we can make moral choices thus becoming what we will become.

I don't know if this is a good thing, but the divine truth sometimes makes me wonder if it's actually out there separate from the worlds. I keep holding onto the straw that there is some sort of a divine reality. I even hope it from time to time.

I think it is good to have hope.

Then I look at the massive universal void, and all its chaos. I look at nature itself other than what humans have built, and I see aimlessness.

I see both divine truth, and total aimlessness, I see the wicked and the good, and live conflicted about God realities in my mind.

Why would such a world exist? Is there a truth going on in it that people can't see? Or, worse, is it a world where anything can happen for no good reasons at all? Is this life the point of it all?, Or is there another life that is the ultimate objective?

I believe that there is another life that is the ultimate objective, but we have to weather the storms of this life on our way there.
Look around. Whether thye are religious or not, most people live as if happiness in this life is the ultimate objective, but this life is very temporary for all of us and soon it will come to an end. Then what will they have if they have lived only for this world?

Do we create ourselves? Is there forces of good working on us? Is it only going to be what I make of it according to finite possibilities?

I believe that life is what we make of it and we are all responsible for choosing what is possible for us to choose

Where a person commits all there hopes and energies is very important while we are alive. Then there is the possibility that I've lived with false hopes in my life. Where do I put my ultimate desire, and is it an actual reality. Or am I living a dream that has no actuality.

It is certainly true that where a person commits all there hopes and energies while they are alive is very important since we only have one life in this world.

Nobody can prove that a religion is true so we all have to decide what we are going to believe is true. That is easier for some people than others. I don't know why it is that way. Why is life in general easier for some than others? There is no answer to these questions. I believe that what happens to us in life is determined by a combination of fate and free will, but that still doesn't answer the why.

Others might think I am living a dream that is not reality, but I know I am not. How I now that is not very easy to explain. I believe that certitude comes from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hey - you were the one who compared theism to drug and alcohol abuse.

I said that some desperate people turn to God and some desperate people turn to drugs or alcohol.
I did not 'compare' theism to drugs and alcohol abuse.

God gives you guidance? How does he speak to you, exactly?

God does not speak to me. God guides me through the Holy Spirit. I'm sure you must have heard Christians say this.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I said that some desperate people turn to God and some desperate people turn to drugs or alcohol.
I did not 'compare' theism to drugs and alcohol abuse.

Whatever.

God does not speak to me. God guides me through the Holy Spirit. I'm sure you must have heard Christians say this.

Okay, fine: how does the Holy Spirit talk to you, then?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can the self become self-reliant when the belief is that the self can't do anything without God? This is what is learned and it traps the person. This is one of the immoral things religion does to people. But of course, this doesn't happen without the self being complicit against themselves.

That is not what I believe. I am self-reliant, I only rely upon God to guide me in the right direction.

Most people rely upon other people to help them or support them if they don't work. It is awfully ironic that they say they don't need God but they are indeed very needy of others.

I don't rely upon other people, I am self-reliant.
How can the self become self-reliant when the belief is that the self can't do anything without a family to support them?

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, fine: how does the Holy Spirit talk to you, then?

It does not talk to me since it does not have a physical voice. It communicates thoughts to my mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

They'll let you down. Even God.
I apologize for my cynical nature but that's where am at.

No need to apologize. I understand since I was where you are at with God for many years.
I have learned that I cannot rely upon other people as they so often let me down. God has never let me down.

Otherwise, I'm happy if your happy for as long as you can remain happy however you need to go about it.

Thanks, but I am not really happy the way most people think of being happy, but that's okay since that is not my goal in life.