YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So did you read Revelation 21:1-5? Before I go on to explain anything, I'd like to know if you read it. Thank you.
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Without trust in God, I would have no hope
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, I have read it.
Thrillobyte
Active Member
Which pretty much proves the point I made earlier: why are people Christian--because they love Jesus, or because they're so terrified that if they refuse to accept him they'll burn in hell for eternity?
Man alive, the church Fathers who invented all this stuff, including Jesus sure has done a number on you people. They've told you that if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and serve him you will go to hell and suffer for eternity. Works like a charm. The Greeks knew it and the church fathers knew it too. Tell me, Trail, how did you learn this? Did God visit you and tell you all this, OR have you heard it all your life from your parents, churchmen, friends and acquaintances? Did you read it in the Bible which was written by ordinary men with an agenda--to get people to join their religion? I'm going to bet the latter.
Christianity is a scam--a con job designed to trick people into accepting its avatar man god, Jesus. And the crazy thing is that according to the historic record, Jesus never lived. You can search the secular historic record for any legitimate mention of Jesus OR the apostles and you won't find a single one. Pretty extraordinary for the most famous guy who ever lived, huh?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Christians DO love Jesus so the main reason they believe in Jesus is no because they are afraid of of going to hell. That is only a side benefit.
Don't go by what I said since I am not even a Christian, I am a Baha'i. We are also supposed to love God but I'm not there yet and may never be.
Those might be Christian beliefs but they are not MY beliefs about hell because I am not a Christian. According to my beliefs, heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. Oh heck. Just watch this three minute video. The Baha'i concept of life after death is deeply integrated into teachings about the nature of the soul and the purpose of this earthly life.
You are going to lose your bet. I did not hear anything about religion of God from my parents since they dropped out of Christianity long before I was born in 1952. I also did not hear it from churchmen since I never saw the inside of a church. I did not hear it from friends or acquaintances either. Actually, I never heard anything about Christianity at all until I started posting on various forums in 2013, and I never read one page of the Bible until then either. Before 2013, I did not even know what NT and OT stood for and I did not even know what the gospels were. I learned all of that while debating with Christians.
You won't win this one.
Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that a historical human Jesus existed.
Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia
Now, whether Jesus said or did any or all of what is recorded in the gospels is up for grabs. I do not believe that He said it, the gospel authors said it, and I don't believe He did everything they said He did. I believe that Jesus died on the cross but I don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead.Scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the biblical accounts of Jesus, but almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts.
Historical Jesus - Wikipedia
Thrillobyte
Active Member
Okay, my apologies, I didn't pick up that you were Baha'i. Which puzzles me why you worry about burning in hell. I didn't know Baha'i's even believed in hell.
Let me tell you about this Jesus thing. Christians will never own up to this: there are TWO Jesus'
1. a historic figure who we have absolutely no historic info on but who historians seem to agree probably existed because of the presence of Christians. Most scholars believe he was a zealot against Rome, maybe a rabbi who got himself crucified by the Romans for sedition.
2. the Jesus of the gospels--the divine son of God born of a virgin who died to save men from their sins and rose three days later. This guy is a complete figment of Christian gospel writers' over-imaginations. You won't find a single secular historian who believes this Jesus of the gospels ever lived. His life has 20 characteristics similar or identical to earlier pagan gods:
Lord Raglan
Lord Raglan, in 1936, developed a 22-point myth-ritualist Hero archetype to account for common patterns across Indo-European cultures for Hero traditions:- Mother is a royal virgin
- Father is a king
- Father often a near relative to mother
- Unusual conception
- Hero reputed to be son of god
- Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
- Hero spirited away as a child
- Reared by foster parents in a far country
- No details of childhood
- Returns or goes to future kingdom
- Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
- Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
- Becomes king
- For a time he reigns uneventfully
- He prescribes laws
- Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
- Driven from throne and city
- Meets with mysterious death
- Often at the top of a hill
- His children, if any, do not succeed him
- His body is not buried
- Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs
When Raglan's 22 point outline is used, a Hero's tradition is considered more likely to be mythical the more of these traits they hold (a point is added per trait). Raglan himself scored the following Heroes: Oedipus (21 or 22 points), Theseus (20 points), JESUS (20 points) Romulus (18 points), Heracles (17 points), Perseus (18 points), Jason (15 points), Bellerophon (16 points), Pelops (13 points), Dionysos (19 points), Apollo (11 points), Zeus (15 points), Joseph (12 points), Moses (20 points), Elijah (9 points), Watu Gunung (18 points), Nyikang (14 points), Sigurd (11 points), Llew Llawgyffes (17 points), King Arthur (19 points), Robin Hood (13 points), and Alexander the Great (7 points).[2]
One can clearly see most of Jesus' life was drawn from the Old Testament and other mythical gods.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am not worried about 'burning in hell' since I do not believe that hell is a geographical location where people burn. As I said, Baha'is believe that hell is separation from God, so any worries I have are because I have not always liked God very much, and every time I see a dead animal on the road as I just did, I like God even less. Theists might have an apologetic explaining why humans suffer but they are backed up against the wall when it comes to animal suffering, as me and my friend and favorite atheist @Nimos have discussed at length.
Other Baha'is are not worried about hell because they just love God to pieces, but those Baha'is have not suffered all their lives the way I have, and the storm has not let up yet. Just when you think it cannot get any worse it does.
It might sound contradictory for me to say that I say I trust God but I don't love God. Let's just say I have a chip on my shoulder and I am waiting for a miracle and leave it at that. I'll let you know if the miracle arrives.
If I had to bet on one of these Jesuses I would bet on #1. You might find this thread I started a few years ago interesting.
How Paul changed the course of Christianity
Good analysis.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Informative.
Thrillobyte
Active Member
I browsed the OP. I will take a closer look later though I am very familiar with how Paul changed--you might say CREATED Christianity. Though I don't believe Paul was a real person because there are no historical entries for him, I think there were people in the 1st century who were working arduously to get Christianity off the ground. What all this demonstrates is that Christianity was not a direct result of a savior god visiting earth--that all mythology no different from Greek and Egyptian stuff. Christianity was a carefully constructed religion that changed its colors like a chameleon depending on what was demanded of it. We see this in the gospels. Jesus starts off as a prophet, then the son of God and finally God himself, as the churchmen realize they need an avatar man god similar to Hercules and Dionysus. This shows that Christianity has nothing divine behind it. It's just another man made religion like Buddhism, Baha'i, Hinduism and the like. There is NO religion that comes from God because God simply does not involve himself with man's affairs. That's evident.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's true. Religions do not come from God, revelations come from God. All the religions were made by man after they were revealed by the Messengers of God. That is what I believe.
No, God does not involve Himself in man's affairs.
Thrillobyte
Active Member
You're contradicting yourself, Trail. If God gives revelations to man then God IS involving himself with humanity. My position is that God does not involve himself with humanity in any way, shape, or form. He doesn't answer prayers (unless someone in here can show scientific evidence of an answered prayer) he doesn't communicate with humans, he doesn't perform miracles, he doesn't create events, he does absolutely NOTHING that involves humanity or this earth. It's as if he doesn't exist. That's why I am an atheist, because an AWOL God is as good as a dead God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God does not involve Himself in man's affairs. Sending Messengers isn't really involving Himself, it is the Messenger getting involved. However, I understand what you mean. You are saying that God is a deist God who does not have anything to do with humans, period.
Even if I did not believe that God sends Messengers, I could still believe in the deist God, since I don't need a God that does all the things you would expect God to do. It is a bonus to me that God sends Messengers, by His grace and mercy, but I could still believe that God exists if He didn't send them, since it makes sense to me that God exists.
I do not believe in God to 'get something' from God, although I get something from the Messengers, their teachings and laws.
Thrillobyte
Active Member
Again, you're contradicting yourself, I'm sorry. if God sends them then God is involving himself. The messengers would have to act independently of God in order for you to say legitimately that God is not involved. Now if God made them "independent contractors" giving them permission to act of their own decision making, THEN you could say God doesn't involve himself but he permits messengers to come, he doesn't send them directly.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Informative. I'd like to rate your replies as informative because I think that you're making a lot of sense in your posts, Thrillobyte.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Here's what a "manifestation" supposedly is....
The Manifestations of God, referred to by Bahá’u’lláh as that pure and stainless Soul, perfectly reflect all of the light, qualities, power and glory of God to mankind in the same way that a mirror can reflect the light and qualities a sun.
And who do they say were manifestations?
Bahá’u’lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as Himself...
So, this God is so beyond us that he can't communicate directly with us. To solve that problem, he created "pure", "stainless" souls? Which I assume are made out of whatever spirit is. Now they are able to incarnate into human bodies? Just a few problems... Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses, all had flaws. They were portrayed as being very human. Yet, God used them. But one of them, Adam, disobeyed God. How is he a "manifestation"? Plus, are they even real, historical people? However, they written about in the Jewish Bible as if real. And something else the Jews consider real... Isaac being taken to be sacrificed.
Isaac was the subject of the tenth and most difficult test of Abraham's faith: G-d commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering. (Gen 22). This test is known in Jewish tradition as the Akeidah (the Binding, a reference to the fact that Isaac was bound on the altar).
Baha'is don't believe that story is accurate... again, as if it really happened.That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice...
The corrections given by Muhammad and Baha’u’llah to the account in Genesis make it clear that, for whatever reason, the version of the sacrifice given in Genesis is not perfect. We don’t know why Jesus didn’t mention and correct the error...
Then there's Krishna. He is believed to be one of several incarnations of the God Vishnu. Plus, he taught reincarnation.
Krishna governs reincarnation, placing those who lived demonically in demonic wombs and offering the wise progressively purer bodies as they move toward enlightenment.
Naturally, Baha'is give their reasons why their teachings and interpretations are correct. To me, they are just one more religion that is claiming it has "The Truth". They got some good teachings and some I don't agree with. Like saying all these people were the manifestations of one God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, I guess you are right. What I meant was that God does not get DIRECTLY involved since God never shows up on earth.
God is involved THROUGH the Messengers.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is NOT a problem because you are going by the Bible and the Bible is an UNRELIABLE source of information.
Moreover, in God's Eyes the Manifestations of God did not have any flaws, even if they actually did some of what is recorded in the Bible.
They are only flaws in YOUR eyes.
Thrillobyte
Active Member
The phrase "God is involved" implies that God cares what happens down here. My position, backed by the obviousness of reality is that God displays NO interest at all in being involved to any degree with us humans or earth. I mean science can record NO instance of anything remotely supernatural every affecting anything on earth. Things operate down here in such a way as to demonstrate complete independence of any authoritative supernatural figure acting on our behalf. Evil people are not punished; innocent people by the hundreds of thousands get wiped out in a single natural disaster; Christians die tragically with the same regularity as members of other religions; prayers are not answered; innocent and evil people alike die in the same horrible painful ways at all ages. All of this follows purely natural models without the slightest hint or trace of supernatural involvement. So then it's safe to dismiss all claims from religionists that God helps them in such and such a way. Any communication with what religionists perceive as Jesus or Buddha or Vishnu is all in the mind. There are no outward manifestations of any god in contact with humans at any level.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that God cares what happens on earth so in that sense God is involved. My position is that God displays an interest in being involved with us humans on earth whenever He sends His Manifestations to speak for Him.
“The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God’s most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70
That's true, but what reason is there to think that if God was involved there would be supernatural involvement affecting the things that you delineated?
Yes, it is safe to dismiss all claims from religionists that God helps them in such and such a way since there is no evidence to support these claims.
Thrillobyte
Active Member
If God cares what happens down here then why do 5 million children under the age of five die every year of pneumonia, diarrhea and malaria, along with starvation. Throw in abuse of all sorts and it likely increases by a million. God could do something about this if God really cared and loved these little kids. But maybe God's definition of love is to just let them die in agony when he could stop it. And we get back to Epidurus. A God who is able to stop such horrors and chooses to ignore it is an evil monster by our definition.
A God whose presence is so scant that it doesn't eve register to our senses is a God that's non-existent by any rational standard. What if a deadbeat dad said, "Yes, I get involved with my child. I think nice thoughts of him on his birthday." Is that involvement?
Thrillobyte
Active Member
There are different degrees of belief, I suppose. Fact: science can detect no discernible presence of any spiritual entity on earth. . Hardcore Christians believe every word in the Bible is true. Atheists believe not a word of the Bible is true. In between are 8 billion different degrees of belief in everything from a Supreme Being of some sort down to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But the fact still remains: a Higher Intelligence offers no evidence of its presence here on earth. So what is the believers' belief based on?