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Without trust in God, I would have no hope

Thrillobyte

Active Member
What do you think that means, that God will answer every prayer prayed by humans? I hope you realize what a mess that would create in the world. What if two people prayed for opposite things? How could both prayers be answered?

I don't think those verses were ever intended to be interpreted literally. Much is the Bible is figurative, not literal truth.
But then if you decide the "Ask God for anything in my name" verses should not be interpreted literally then anyone can decide what they can interpret literally and what they can interpret figuratively. I can say that "If you do not believe in me you will die in your sins" and" whoever believe in him should not perish" is figurative and so we shouldn't fear going to hell for not believing in Jesus. Do you see the rabbit hole you dig when you go that route of "Some are literal and others are figurative?"
 

Thrillobyte

Active Member
I genuinely believed in God and tried to trust in him for about 40 years, and it was also a total waste of time for me as well. I was barely seven years old when I first prayed to God, asking him to stop my adoptive mother from hurting me. I remember telling God that my mother hurts me when she hits me. I told him that she hits me, screams at me, and she told me that I was a bad child. However, God never answered that prayer or any of the countless prayers I prayed as a child and teenager, asking him to protect me from my abusive mother and older brother, who both would hit me, bully me, degrade me, and threaten me. But, like my extended family, the neighbors, my teachers at school, the pastor and congregation at church, and everyone else in town who knew I was being abused, God never lifted a finger to defend and save me from being abused at home and bullied at school on a daily basis. Despite the abuse and bullying I was suffering at home and in school, I still sincerely believed in God and continued to pray to him for most of my life. I recall sitting in church while growing up and listening to a pastor talk about God's love and mercy and how we can pray to him in Jesus' name and he would help us.

I remember thinking about how often I sincerely prayed to God (completing the prayer with "in Jesus' name"), asking him to protect me, but nothing ever happened. I was abused at home for thirteen and a half years, and I endured bullying at school for twelve years. I recall some Christians telling me it was my fault that I was abused, bullied, and mistreated while growing up, either because I had unconfessed sin in my life (which evidently prevented God from protecting me) or because I lacked significant faith in God's ability to save me. And while that was hurtful, it was nothing in comparison to having a pastor call me a "cursed soul" and tell me that God hates me and that I suffered abuse because God was punishing me for the sins of my biological parents. He told me that there was nothing I could do to stop God from hating me. I believed him since the Bible says God hates and teaches about generational sins.

I began to genuinely believe in God when I was almost seven years old, after I went to church with my aunt. I became a Christian when I was seventeen, and I renounced my Christian faith when I was forty-seven. I was finally honest enough with myself to acknowledge and admit to myself that believing in God and having faith and trust in him was completely worthless and a total waste of my time. However, I have no doubt that renouncing my belief and faith in God was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being. It is only second to the decision I made shortly after turning eighteen to confront my abusive mother and brother. I saved myself from the abuse I was suffering at home. God had nothing to do with it.
I can definitely relate to a lot of what you say, Pepper. Watching God do absolutely nothing while millions of children are raped, tortured and murdered as well as dying of disease and starvation is primarily what turned me off to God and caused me to stop believing in him. I imagine it's the same for the tens of millions of former Christians who watched the same things and made the same decision. People should keep what Epicurus said in mind:

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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
But al four gospels promise, "IF you ask the Father for anything in my name he will grant it." So why doesn't God honor Jesus' promise to us?


This is a misreading, I think. Ask, and it shall be given you, is not an invitation to present God with a shopping list. Jesus, during his passion in the garden, asked the Father to remove the cup from his lips, but this request was not granted. Instead, the Father sent an angel to comfort him.

Seek, and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you, is a promise that all who truly and humbly seek refuge in God, will be received. But this gift of a new life generally comes at a price; namely the surrender of the old life.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Let me put it a bit differently then: I hope to be alive when death and unhappiness are no more. Ok? Is that clearer?
That is still too vague. How will death and unhappiness be no more in the world?
Humans and animals are mortal so there will always be physical death, so that means Rev 21:4 has to be referring to spiritual death.
Spiritual death will be no more because everyone will have spiritual life in the new earth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your statement about "hope", says otherwise imo.
I said: I believe God exists because of the evidence I see for God, not because I am emotionally invested into believing.
Everyone has emotions and people have different reasons to have hope. If they had no hope they would "feel" hopeless.
Yep.

Evidence is what determines my justifications for believing anything. And I will always do my best to keep emotions out of it.
But as I am human, I too get caught into that bias from time to time.
Same here.
 

Thrillobyte

Active Member
This is a misreading, I think. Ask, and it shall be given you, is not an invitation to present God with a shopping list. Jesus, during his passion in the garden, asked the Father to remove the cup from his lips, but this request was not granted. Instead, the Father sent an angel to comfort him.

Seek, and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you, is a promise that all who truly and humbly seek refuge in God, will be received. But this gift of a new life generally comes at a price; namely the surrender of the old life.
If Jesus didn't intend this to be a free-for-all then he would have said something to that effect: "But don't construe this promise as an invitation to ask for all sorts of worldly treasures. This is for spiritual matters, not material ones." But he didn't say any such thing.

It best to just go with the most likely explanation for such a dumb Jesus promise: the early church fathers were trying to rope pagans into joining Christianity and so they hit upon the "carrot and stick" approach to lure pagans in and wrote those verses into the gospels. The carrot was "Ask for anything and God will give it to you." The stick of course was "Refuse Jesus and you will burn in fire for eternity in hell".

Works every time, even today.

You are aware, I hope that no apostle wrote the gospels. They were written by anonymous Greek writers some 50-100 years later.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But then if you decide the "Ask God for anything in my name" verses should not be interpreted literally then anyone can decide what they can interpret literally and what they can interpret figuratively.
That's right, and that is what we have to do when reading the Bible, decide for ourselves what verses should be interpreted literally and what verses should be interpreted figuratively. Not all people think with the same mind so not all people will come to the same conclusions.
I can say that "If you do not believe in me you will die in your sins" and" whoever believe in him should not perish" is figurative and so we shouldn't fear going to hell for not believing in Jesus. Do you see the rabbit hole you dig when you go that route of "Some are literal and others are figurative?"
In order to avoid the rabbit hole you need to understand what the verses actually mean, that is the key.

"If you do not believe in me you will die in your sins"

Even if you believe in Jesus you will still die with sins since we all commit sins, so the idea is that your sins will be forgiven if you believe in Jesus. It is also important to note that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which means hating God. That is something to keep in mind since hating God is actually what lands people in hell, since hell is distance from God.

"whoever believe in him should not perish"

I don't believe in a 'place' called hell that God sends people to. What I believe that means is that whoever believes in Jesus will not have eternal life, which is nearness to God in mind and heart. All souls will continue to exist after the physical body dies, but not all souls wil be near to God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If Jesus didn't intend this to be a free-for-all then he would have said something to that effect: "But don't construe this promise as an invitation to ask for all sorts of worldly treasures. This is for spiritual matters, not material ones." But he didn't say any such thing.
Jesus didn't say that because Jesus wanted people to figure that out for themselves by using logic and reason, and may people have figured it out.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God is able but not willing to prevent evil, since God wants humans to prevent their own evil since they are the cause of evil.
Why should God prevent what humans cause? "Because God is omnipotent" is not an answer.

God could also eliminate all life on earth in a heartbeat "because God is omnipotent." Do you think God should do that?

Then whence cometh evil? From humans who commit evil acts since they fail to follow the Laws of God.
If everyone followed the Laws of God there would be no evil in the world.
 

Thrillobyte

Active Member
That's right, and that is what we have to do when reading the Bible, decide for ourselves what verses should be interpreted literally and what verses should be interpreted figuratively. Not all people think with the same mind so not all people will come to the same conclusions.

In order to avoid the rabbit hole you need to understand what the verses actually mean, that is the key.

"If you do not believe in me you will die in your sins"

Even if you believe in Jesus you will still die with sins since we all commit sins, so the idea is that your sins will be forgiven if you believe in Jesus. It is also important to note that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which means hating God. That is something to keep in mind since hating God is actually what lands people in hell, since hell is distance from God.

"whoever believe in him should not perish"

I don't believe in a 'place' called hell that God sends people to. What I believe that means is that whoever believes in Jesus will not have eternal life, which is nearness to God in mind and heart. All souls will continue to exist after the physical body dies, but not all souls wil be near to God.
Lots of people will be ecstatic to not have to be near an uncaring unloving jerk as God. One has realize that Jesus didn't invent hell. The concept of hell was around long before Jesus. The Zoroastrians invented it and the the Greeks stole it and the Christian religion stole it from the Greeks because it was such a perfect way to scare and frighten people into doing what an authoritative body wanted them to do. Ask most Christians why the are Christian and they'll tell you, "Because I don't want to burn in hell for all eternity. Millions of them have had this idea pounded into their psyche since they were in diapers. It's nearly impossible for them to shake the fear.
 

Thrillobyte

Active Member
God is able but not willing to prevent evil, since God wants humans to prevent their own evil since they are the cause of evil.
Why should God prevent what humans cause? "Because God is omnipotent" is not an answer.

God could also eliminate all life on earth in a heartbeat "because God is omnipotent." Do you think God should do that?

Then whence cometh evil? From humans who commit evil acts since they fail to follow the Laws of God.
If everyone followed the Laws of God there would be no evil in the world.
If God is able to prevent evil on an abused 3 year old who is daily being raped and tortured but simply stands by and watches it without doing something, then God is the most evil entity in the universe--worse than Satan ever thought of being. I have more respect for Satan since he doesn't pla the games God does. These innocent children didn't do anything to deserve such punishment and here we have a God who who could prevent it but chooses to just ignore it. If you were watching a 3 year old being tortured what would you do? Should you expect any less from God?
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Lots of people will be ecstatic to not have to be near an uncaring unloving jerk as God. One has realize that Jesus didn't invent hell. The concept of hell was around long before Jesus. The Zoroastrians invented it and the the Greeks stole it and the Christian religion stole it from the Greeks because it was such a perfect way to scare and frighten people into doing what an authoritative body wanted them to do. Ask most Christians why the are Christian and they'll tell you, "Because I don't want to burn in hell for all eternity. Millions of them have had this idea pounded into their psyche since they were in diapers. It's nearly impossible for them to shake the fear.
If God is able to prevent evil on an abused 3 year old who is daily being raped and tortured but simply stands by and watches it without doing something, then God is the most evil entity in the universe--worse than Satan ever thought of being. I have more respect for Satan since he doesn't play the games God does. These innocent children didn't do anything to deserve such punishment and here we have a God who who could prevent it but chooses to just ignore it. If you were watching a 3 year old being tortured what would you do? Should you expect any less from God?

For what it's worth, I agree with you and share your negative sentiments about God, and I say this as a survivor of childhood abuse myself.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It best to just go with the most likely explanation for such a dumb Jesus promise: the early church fathers were trying to rope pagans into joining Christianity and so they hit upon the "carrot and stick" approach to lure pagans in and wrote those verses into the gospels. The carrot was "Ask for anything and God will give it to you." The stick of course was "Refuse Jesus and you will burn in fire for eternity in hell".

Works every time, even today.

You are aware, I hope that no apostle wrote the gospels. They were written by anonymous Greek writers some 50-100 years later.
I agree... Keep it simple. What does it say? Well then, that's probably what the writers wanted it to say. Baha'is try to salvage some legitimacy to the Bible and NT by making things "symbolically" true, not "literally" true. I don't think so. I think it was written in a way to get believe to believe and fear God. And later, when hell and Satan became part of the beliefs, it was to further scare people to believe and obey.
 

Thrillobyte

Active Member
For what it's worth, I agree with you and share your negative sentiments about God, and I say this as a survivor of childhood abuse myself.
There are websites on Google perfectly legal to look at that show all sorts of heinous acts perpetrated on innocent people. One watches these websites and realizes that in no case is there any hint of a supernatural power governing any of this. It's all what you'd expect to see in an evil world where a God doesn't exist. It's the most damning evidence against believing any sort of an all-loving, all-good Higher Being has anything whatsoever to do with this world. I was a deist before just coming out as an atheist so even then I believed this supposedly good God, if he did exist, was simply uncaring and unfeeling about this world--simply didn't care less if we destroyed ourselves tomorrow or not. It much simpler than all the drama and uncertainty that goes with believing in Jesus and everything associated with him, especially since there's not a nickel's worth of secular evidence he ever existed.
 

Thrillobyte

Active Member
I agree... Keep it simple. What does it say? Well then, that's probably what the writers wanted it to say. Baha'is try to salvage some legitimacy to the Bible and NT by making things "symbolically" true, not "literally" true. I don't think so. I think it was written in a way to get believe to believe and fear God. And later, when hell and Satan became part of the beliefs, it was to further scare people to believe and obey.
Absolutely. I have a lot of respect for the Baha'i faith because they at least try to bring out the good in people and don't threaten them with every sort of punishment if people don[t do what the church leaders tell them to do. I used to hear on TBN's Beg-a-thons all the time that if you rob God of the money you owe him in tithes that God would send you to hell. An absolutely disgusting piece of propaganda that gullible fools constantly fall for, which is why these televangelist scoundrels are worth hundreds of millions of dollars and live like royalty on poor people's hard earned money.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Lots of people will be ecstatic to not have to be near an uncaring unloving jerk as God.
Thy believe they will be ecstatic, but they are not dead yet. Whether or not God will forgive people for thinking He is an uncaring unloving jerk is anyone's best guess. I used to believe that way even as a believer, but I don't think it is in my best interest so I have struggled to at least not hate God, since I don't want to wind up in hell, and I believe hating God is what will land me in hell.

But even in this life, I was in hell when I hated God, and my life has turned around since I stopped hating God. God is not going to stop people from hating Him, it has to be our choice since we have free will to choose.
One has realize that Jesus didn't invent hell. The concept of hell was around long before Jesus. The Zoroastrians invented it and the the Greeks stole it and the Christian religion stole it from the Greeks because it was such a perfect way to scare and frighten people into doing what an authoritative body wanted them to do. Ask most Christians why the are Christian and they'll tell you, "Because I don't want to burn in hell for all eternity. Millions of them have had this idea pounded into their psyche since they were in diapers. It's nearly impossible for them to shake the fear.
I do realize that, and God is only trying to do people a favor by warning them about hell, which is not a place where people burn for eternity, but rather eternal separation from God. It has to be pounded into people since the human ego is a very powerful force. I think we should be frightened of an All-Powerful God and what He can do to us, although God is also All-Merciful, so He won't necessarily do what people fear. It is kind of like a loving parent warning a child what might happen if they are not obedient, although the parent won't necessarily dole out that punishment.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If God is able to prevent evil on an abused 3 year old who is daily being raped and tortured but simply stands by and watches it without doing something, then God is the most evil entity in the universe--worse than Satan ever thought of being.
If you want to hate God that is your choice, as I said in my previous post, but don't pretend it is based upon logic and reason.
It is based upon sheer emotion, that is all it is based upon. "Mommy, you did not give me my cookie so I hate you mommy!"
I have more respect for Satan since he doesn't pla the games God does.
God plays no games, it is only humans who are playing the games, and then they blame God for their games.
It is humans who are torturing and raping other humans and and then they expect God to step in and stop it.

Why should God do that? Because God is omnipotent so allegedly God can stop it not a logical answer, since God can also destroy the world in a heartbeat. No, there no reason why God should do what humans can do for themselves.
These innocent children didn't do anything to deserve such punishment and here we have a God who who could prevent it but chooses to just ignore it. If you were watching a 3 year old being tortured what would you do? Should you expect any less from God?
I do not expect anything from God because God is not a short order cook.
"God is omnipotent do God should do whatever I expect Him to do" is what you are saying, but ANY logical person would know that an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, not what people expect Him to do. And I love how some people forget that God alone is omniscient, which means that God knows more than they could EVER know regarding what is best to do or not do.

This is logic 101 stuff, but I don't expect people who are all caught up in their emotions to care about logic.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That is still too vague. How will death and unhappiness be no more in the world?
Humans and animals are mortal so there will always be physical death, so that means Rev 21:4 has to be referring to spiritual death.
Spiritual death will be no more because everyone will have spiritual life in the new earth.
First of all, the Bible says death will be no more. Did you read Revelation 21:1-5?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
First of all, the Bible says death will be no more. Did you read Revelation 21:1-5?
I do not believe that verse means that physical death will be no more. I believe it means that spiritual death will be no more.
It is impossible that physical death will be no more since the physical body was created by God to be mortal.

So either the verse means that spiritual death will be no more or the Book of Revelation is in error.
 
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