Woke and DEI - good intentions, so-so, dogmatic solutions

[icehorse]

TLDR: I don't think your objections to DEI and what you call "woke" initiatives have been thought through.

I love "TLDR, but I think.."

 

[Sand Dancer]

I guess I knew that at some level... but even after decades, it doesn't really make any sense.

Why do so many people willingly engage into so much hypocrisy, lying and support of destruction?

They have an agenda, and the Bible has verses that will support different agendas. Not a coherent piece of literature, and I guess I would rather keep the positive and loving parts of it and trash the hateful and divisive parts. Not everyone does though.

 

[Sand Dancer]

The problem is the so-called DEI crowd, who preaches diversity, equality and inclusion, does not even try to include the majority, which is also a large part of the diversity of culture. Nor do they want equality, but extra government benefits to pay for their unique non-inclusive diversity. The walk and the talk do not add up, which is why there is a push back.

This reminds me of the old salesman phrase, "trust me". The shady salesman nicely asks the nice person, to trust him/her. Since the buyer is nice but naive, they will try to trust, lowering their guard to help promote intimacy and healing. The salesman knows this, so he is uses the plea for trust, to get them to lower their guard, so he can rip them off; let the buyer beware.

DEI is the "trust me" scam of the present. It appears to strike a cord; sounds nice. However, in practice, it is designed to get you to lower your guard; accept, so your pocket can be picked. Law and order types do not fall for con artists, who claim diversity, but ignore and even threaten anyone who is will not buy the wares they are selling. Part of diversity is all alternate opinions and not censorship. One can get punished in school for maintaining diversity of opinion, around a self serving crowd that claims to be the guardian of diversity.

The Political Left has found a universal con job; everyone is now a victim. Good people feel sorry for victims and will let their guard down to help. But this con of lowering the guard with pleas for help, has become an over used way to game the system. Now we have healthy young people claiming to be handicapped, to game the system, and stay high. The con artists virtue signal; talk the talk, but do not walk the walk.

The political far left probably goes too far in making everyone a victim, just as the political far right goes too far in making everyone an abomination. They react against each other. Thankfully the centrist right and left don't do that. They don't tend to see everything in black and white.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I love "TLDR, but I think.."

Wow... couldn't even bother to read the TLDR.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think children get confused.
It usually deals with men who wear female clothing, and children don't understand this thing.

Kids have one upped you here. They’ve understood that kind of thing for decades.
See Barry Humphries, who as a children’s entertainer since the 1950s, played the character of Dame Edna Everage.
The 1970s gave us Aussies the children’s TV show Aunty Jack
Not to mention the Life of Brian among other such successful comedy movies from that British comedy troop
Hell as a 90s kid, I grew up watching Mrs Doubtfire
Like my guy, kids aren’t idiots and drag isn’t some nefarious evil act or anything. Nor is it even slightly confusing. It’s a costume lol

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The problem is the so-called DEI crowd, who preaches diversity, equality and inclusion, does not even try to include the majority, which is also a large part of the diversity of culture. Nor do they want equality, but extra government benefits to pay for their unique non-inclusive diversity. The walk and the talk do not add up, which is why there is a push back.

This reminds me of the old salesman phrase, "trust me". The shady salesman nicely asks the nice person, to trust him/her. Since the buyer is nice but naive, they will try to trust, lowering their guard to help promote intimacy and healing. The salesman knows this, so he is uses the plea for trust, to get them to lower their guard, so he can rip them off; let the buyer beware.

DEI is the "trust me" scam of the present. It appears to strike a cord; sounds nice. However, in practice, it is designed to get you to lower your guard; accept, so your pocket can be picked. Law and order types do not fall for con artists, who claim diversity, but ignore and even threaten anyone who is will not buy the wares they are selling. Part of diversity is all alternate opinions and not censorship. One can get punished in school for maintaining diversity of opinion, around a self serving crowd that claims to be the guardian of diversity.

The Political Left has found a universal con job; everyone is now a victim. Good people feel sorry for victims and will let their guard down to help. But this con of lowering the guard with pleas for help, has become an over used way to game the system. Now we have healthy young people claiming to be handicapped, to game the system, and stay high. The con artists virtue signal; talk the talk, but do not walk the walk.

Honestly, where do you get such notions? When a minority says "we want to be treated just like the rest of society (the "majority" that you mention), how is that not inclusive of the majority? When we fought for the right to marry (and thus protect and cherish) those we love, did we ask for government benefits to pay for our weddings, or did we merely ask for the right to marry, and to endow our beloved with the same rights as any other spouse -- such as the right to inherit property if, say after an accident or unexpected illness, no wills have yet been written? Or to have a say in hospital, when a spouse is in crisis? Because it used to be, in those situations, the spouse would be ignored and the immediate family (who might actually have kicked their child out for being queer) will be called and have all those rights. I've seen it happen.

But if you want exclusion, look no further than Florida -- and the other red states that will soon follow. For instance, are you aware that in Florida, starting this July, it will be illegal to fly the rainbow flag on any government building? Here in Toronto, and elsewhere in Canada, that flag is raised with pride every year at the end of June. Oh, but it will still be legal in Florida, where 49 people were murdered at an LGBTQ+ club, to carry concealed weapons. Just in case somebody feels the need to shoot some more.

Did you know that, on the same day earlier this month that DeSantis signed anti-transgender bills into law, Orlando police reported a digital traffic sign that was hacked so that it read, "Kill all Gays"? Who is being inclusive, and who isn't?

And a question for you about your handle: who exactly is it that you are wishing well?

 

[F1fan]

Ok...will you admit that Hunter Biden is handsome, at least?

I have no opionion about it. Why is attractivness so important to you? To my mind close-minded and mean people, like many conservatives who have the "anti-woke" attitudes, or are greedy, or corrupt, or lack empathy, are ugly.

 

[Ashoka]

I think children get confused.
It usually deals with men who wear female clothing, and children don't understand this thing.

1. Children are smarter than we give them credit for.
2. Clothing doesn't have a gender.

We've literally grown up with drag, as another poster pointed out. Drag has been around longer than ancient Greece. Did you know that in Victorian England, women were not allowed to participate in roles in plays? So guess who would play the women? Men did.

 

[F1fan]

The problem is the so-called DEI crowd, who preaches diversity, equality and inclusion, does not even try to include the majority,

What majority is that? White people? You do realize that white as a category is going to be a minority soon, yes? How do you feel about that?

which is also a large part of the diversity of culture.

Sure, the KKK and neo-Nazis are part of culture, I suppose. Not a good part of culture, and it should be discouraged due to the harm they cause.

Nor do they want equality, but extra government benefits to pay for their unique non-inclusive diversity.

Non-inclusive diversity? What is that right wing code speak for?

The walk and the talk do not add up, which is why there is a push back.

The conservative walk is not supporting those in society who do not have the basic resources that the middle class takes for granted. The conservatives think by putting more pressure on citizens who already face massive stress will force them into better opportunities.

This reminds me of the old salesman phrase, "trust me". The shady salesman nicely asks the nice person, to trust him/her. Since the buyer is nice but naive, they will try to trust, lowering their guard to help promote intimacy and healing. The salesman knows this, so he is uses the plea for trust, to get them to lower their guard, so he can rip them off; let the buyer beware.

This is why the majority of citizens are wary of republicans. How many lies has Trump said, and conservatives bought it? How many lies have conservative Supreme Court nominees said to get confirmed and then do what they promised they wouldn't?

DEI is the "trust me" scam of the present. It appears to strike a cord; sounds nice. However, in practice, it is designed to get you to lower your guard; accept, so your pocket can be picked. Law and order types do not fall for con artists, who claim diversity, but ignore and even threaten anyone who is will not buy the wares they are selling. Part of diversity is all alternate opinions and not censorship. One can get punished in school for maintaining diversity of opinion, around a self serving crowd that claims to be the guardian of diversity.

Conservatives need an enemy to hate, and this is why they oppose diversity and openness to marginalized groups. There's no rhyme or reason to not recognize racism and discrimination exists, and that as a society we need to offset these beliefs. Far right conservatives are trying to frame these issues as some sort of fraud, and never say anything about those who these policies help. This is the dehumanization of the republican party. Democrats are largely humanist, and they focus on human dignity, but republicans do not. They treat groups of people conceptually, like calling immigrants illegals instead of migrants who are actually following the law and filing for asylum. Gays and trans are being treated like deviants. Liberals are being called "woke" as if that is a derogatory term. In fact "woke" means people who are aware of injustice. How is that bad?

The Political Left has found a universal con job; everyone is now a victim.

Wrong, what democrats actually care about is helping those who are being prejudiced against, like gays, trans, and liberals for just being who athey are. The poor are treated as corrupt by conserrvatives, as if they need financial help as some sort of fraud. Conservatives refuse to acknowledge that there are many people in society that lack access to the resources and opportunity that the middle class takes for granted. Many of these people are born into circumstances of poverty, and very few make it out. The promises of a better economy seldom trickles down to those in poverty. At best they are the last to benefit, and the first to suffer downturns.

Good people feel sorry for victims and will let their guard down to help.

Republicans like to kick people when they are down, unless it is a bank or some other wealthy person who lost massive investments due to their own greed and mismanagement.

But this con of lowering the guard with pleas for help, has become an over used way to game the system. Now we have healthy young people claiming to be handicapped, to game the system, and stay high. The con artists virtue signal; talk the talk, but do not walk the walk.

You make it sound like there is massive fraud, yet not a single example or evidence. And you want us to "trust you". Hell no, we are not buying your con.

 

[SomeRandom]

1. Children are smarter than we give them credit for.
2. Clothing doesn't have a gender.

We've literally grown up with drag, as another poster pointed out. Drag has been around longer than ancient Greece. Did you know that in Victorian England, women were not allowed to participate in roles in plays? So guess who would play the women? Men did.

Speaking of plays, Peter Pan as a character is traditionally played by a woman
We’ve come full circle it seems lol

 

[icehorse]

Wow... couldn't even bother to read the TLDR.

In this case "i don't think" and "but i think" have virtually the same meaning, correct?

And around our house "but i think..." has become a meme for people who admit to not knowing about the situation at hand, but have an opinion anyway

 

[Sand Dancer]

I think children get confused.
It usually deals with men who wear female clothing, and children don't understand this thing.

Why is it okay for women to wear pants, have short hair, or wear sensible shoes and no make up, but not okay for guys to wear skirts, have long hair, and wear make up and heels? In some cultures that is how guys dress. The expected look for women is so guys can ogle. Maybe some guys don't like cross dressers and trans women because they might find them attractive.

 

[Yerda]

This kind of thing is giving easy fodder to the diseased right.

People are often tribal, especially when defending things they care about. This can lead to dogmatic approaches and responses when under attack. The wokes are often wrong but at least they believe in the things they stand for. The right moves from one piece of disingenuous sloganeering gibberish to the next - all the while with the full support of liberals, like yourself.

 

[icehorse]

People are often tribal, especially when defending things they care about. This can lead to dogmatic approaches and responses when under attack. The wokes are often wrong but at least they believe in the things they stand for. The right moves from one piece of disingenuous sloganeering gibberish to the next - all the while with the full support of liberals, like yourself.

Again, the point of this thread is about who is capturing - or losing - the hearts and minds of the population. As I said, I think the DEI crowd is mostly well intended. (I've got quibbles.) But the point is that too often the tactics used by the DEI are off-putting. They are pushing people away. And sometimes they're pushing people to move to the right. So these tactics are actually backfiring.

But to be clear, "liberals like me" DO NOT support the right. We are fighting the right-wingers, and the DEI-ers are making our fight harder, when we should be working together to defang the right.

I don't care what excuses you have for the DEI folks. They've got to get their act together and drop the divisive dogma.

 

[Yerda]

Again, the point of this thread is about who is capturing - or losing - the hearts and minds of the population. As I said, I think the DEI crowd is mostly well intended. (I've got quibbles.) But the point is that too often the tactics used by the DEI are off-putting. They are pushing people away. And sometimes they're pushing people to move to the right. So these tactics are actually backfiring.

But to be clear, "liberals like me" DO NOT support the right. We are fighting the right-wingers, and the DEI-ers are making our fight harder, when we should be working together to defang the right.

I don't care what excuses you have for the DEI folks. They've got to get their act together and drop the divisive dogma.

This is just my experience, but the people I see combatting the right on every front are the kind of people you would call woke. On both sides of the Atlantic the people I see siding with the right on a variety of subjects are the liberals. "Islam is a threat", "free speech is under attack", "the intolerant wokes", "trans ideology", "CRT in schools". Etcetera.

The people you think are making your "fight" harder are the ones doing the actual fighting while liberals snipe from the sidelines about how uncivil and uncouth it is to protest against fascists speaking at student unions or legislation intended to make life harder for trans people.

 

[icehorse]

This is just my experience, but the people I see combatting the right on every front are the kind of people you would call woke. On both sides of the Atlantic the people I see siding with the right on a variety of subjects are the liberals. "Islam is a threat", "free speech is under attack", "the intolerant wokes", "trans ideology", "CRT in schools". Etcetera.

The people you think are making your "fight" harder are the ones doing the actual fighting while liberals snipe from the sidelines about how uncivil and uncouth it is to protest against fascists speaking at student unions or legislation intended to make life harder for trans people.

I would say that both "the woke" AND liberals (like me), are fighting the extreme right.

Not to digress but:

- Islam IS a threat. Islam is - IMO - fundamentally misogynistic, theocratic, homophobic, anti-semetic, and divisive.
- Free speech IS under attack. The attackers haven't made much of a dent yet, but any dent in free speech ought to be resisted.
- Trans ideology ought to be examined carefully. We OUGHT to be able to look at all the claims and assess them for their individual merit. We should NOT accept the idea that if we don't swallow the entire story created by the trans-activists, we're anti-trans.
- CRT is similar. Where is the EXACT set of ideas people want to teach? Some might be fine, others not so much.

What I see in all of these examples is the notion that the dogma must be accepted, and that's just horse puckies.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think children get confused.
It usually deals with men who wear female clothing, and children don't understand this thing.

Sure they do. Kids themselves play dress-up. I used to put on my dad's old work clothes and my mom's work suits. They put on costumes at Halloween and dress up as someone else. They have birthday parties where dudes dress up like clowns. They watch movies like Mrs. Doubtfire and can figure out that Robin Williams is a man dressed as a a woman.
Have you ever met any children?

 

[Estro Felino]

Sure they do. Kids themselves play dress-up. I used to put on my dad's old work clothes and my mom's work suits. They put on costumes at Halloween and dress up as someone else. They have birthday parties where dudes dress up like clowns. They watch movies like Mrs. Doubtfire and can figure out that Robin Williams is a man dressed as a a woman.
Have you ever met any children?

We do care for our male pupils. We don't want them to undergo such influences...that is why we entrust them to very sexy teachers...so they can appreciate female beauty.... Ra ta ta ta ta...
LOL

LOL...I was kidding of course.

 

[SkepticThinker]

We do care for our male pupils. We don't want them to undergo such influences...that is why we entrust them to very sexy teachers...so they can appreciate female beauty.... Ra ta ta ta ta...
LOL

LOL...I was kidding of course.

LOL I've never had such a teacher.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In brief, "woke" means "alert to injustice." That's what it was intended to mean when coined, and to me, that's what it still means. DeSantis is outspokenly and unabashedly anti-woke, meaning he rejects any scenario where anyone should be alert enough to injustice to bring it up and hope to do anything about it.

In fact, in he said yesterday to Fox, when asked "why DeSantis for President now:"

“I will be able to destroy leftism in this country and leave woke ideology on the dustbin of history."

Which translates to "I will begin a new era where the right can have all the injustice it has so long enjoyed."

Hey, it's your America, not mine. Vote for him if you like.