Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
That's easy for you to say - since most of my post is going to consist of me pointing out the false assumptions you have made.Anyhow, I skipped a lot of what you siad. I'm sorry but your post was just too long, and now I've sent a reply that is, IMHO, so long that I know most of the folks in the forum won't choose to read it. If you reply, please try to make it shorter. It's really only a forum. Things need to be concise.
I'd rather we not ignore what the other says - considering that there is no forum rule concerning the length of posts - other that the limit to how many characters we use of course.
I am going to say my piece - no matter how long it takes - and you are free to ignore most of it again if you want.
However - you reading things that are not there (strawmen) and overreacting to them has caused this to run longer than it should.
All throughout this thread I have been talking in terms of ideals - the ideal roles set apart for husbands and wives - fathers and mothers - which include their primary roles.
Of course - us living in imperfect and finite mortality means that not every person - riddled with weaknesses and sins - is going to be ideal - but that is beside the point I am making.
I believe that God designed us ideally to fulfill particular primary roles and the closest we get to fulfilling these roles the better off we will be.
I believe that a person developing a "spiritual understanding" means that they have better come to know the will of the Lord concerning them.It would be wrong if it weren't true. But in those situations where a woman DOES have greater spiritual understanding than her hubby, then it becomes infantilizing to ask her to pretend it is not so and to agree with her husband, who has less wisdom.
From a Christian perspective according to Ephesians 5 - wives were commanded to submit to their husbands - as unto the Lord - and that husbands were commanded to love their wives and to be as Christ is to the Church.
Any Christian claiming to have "spiritual understanding" would recognize that there is a dynamic between men and women in marriage.
We might not all have the same interpretation of Ephesians 5 - but we can at least agree that God had particular primary roles in mind when Paul wrote these words.
My interpretation is that the husband is the final authority over the wife when the matter concerns the entirety of the family - just as the Lord over the Church.
The Lord does not infantilize or oppress the Church - therefore the husband should not do the same to his wife.
Bearing that in mind - husbands were commanded to be selfless, self-sacrificing and to bear unconditional love toward their wives - just as Christ did toward the Church.
Also - Christ did nothing of Himself - but what He saw the Father do - therefore all husbands should be doing all that they can to follow the will of God.
So - my opinion based on Christian scripture - is that any woman who claims that they can usurp their husband as the "head" of their spiritual coupling lacks "spiritual understanding".
The wife and mother is going to receive revelation on behalf of herself and her children and she is the final authority in regards to her children - for that is her primary role.
The husband and father is going to receive revelation on behalf of himself and his wife and he is the final authority over the affairs of the family - for that is his primary role.
You never thought it was interesting that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary to tell her that she would conceive the Son of God?
Why didn't the angel tell Joseph first - considering that he was her betrothed?
I mean - God told Abraham that Sarah would have Isaac and the angel Gabriel told Zacharias that Elizabeth would have John.
Why didn't Joseph receive revelation about this matter until after he learned - through nature processes - that she was pregnant?
And why did Joseph - not Mary - receive the revelation telling them to flee to Egypt when Herod wanted to kill the young Lord?
I'll share my insight.
The reason that the angel came to Mary before Joseph is because the Lord Jesus Christ was not Joseph's son - but Mary's and God's.
Joseph was only made aware after he thought to take action to put Mary away privily.
Wouldn't it have made more sense to tell Joseph first - to avoid that situation? That confusion and hurt that Joseph most likely felt?
No - because Joseph was not the Lord's father and he was not yet Mary's husband.
Only when he thought to take action - which would have affected Mary's future marital status and the Lord's future mortal family - did it become necessary to inform Joseph - so that he could fulfill his primary role as the future husband of Mary and step-father of the Lord.
Then after Mary gave birth and they married it was Joseph - not Mary - who received revelation telling them to flee to Egypt - because as Mary's husband he was her head and it was his primary role to protect her and her child.
The reason Abraham and Zacharias were told about their future sons before their wives were was because they were currently married to those women and they were the literal fathers of those children.
As the head of those couplings - it was imperative that they receive this information first - to pass on to their wives.
That was their primary role as the head of their respective couplings - God dealt with them ideally.
And what is this about a wife needing to always agree with her husband? Have you read the New Testament? The leaders of the Church disagreed with each other - and the Lord - all the time.
Ultimately - however - the Lord is the authority over the Church - just as the husband is the authority over the wife.
I don't know your sister and her situation - but I have been speaking in ideals.Not all women are naturally good mothers. I loved my babies -- best time of my life. But my sister gets stressed out by children. It would have been disastrous for her mental health to have asked her to stay home and care for her son.
Throughout human history - the vast majority of nurturers and caretakers of children have been mothers.
Throughout human history - the vast majority of providers and protectors of women and children have been fathers.
So - instead of trying to argue that the exceptions should somehow set the rule - lean into the facts.
There will always been exceptions to the rules in imperfect and finite mortality.
How did you interpret this from, "Just as much as a woman who is not fulfilling her duties as a mother. It will count against her. And her husband should be helping her fulfill her duties." (Bold and italics added)Secondly, children benefit from fathers being directly interactive with them. Being male doesn't mean you aren't part of raising the kids. Women may be able to breastfeed (with exceptions) but men spend more time actually playing with their kids. Well, at least the good dads do.
I never claimed that fathers should not be a part of raising their children.
I clearly stated that husbands should be helping their wives "fulfill her duties" of motherhood - which would include playing, feeding, cleaning and otherwise spending time with their children.
You are inserting your own biases into what I have said and I don't appreciate it.
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