Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Women were good enough to give them money but not even a little influence. Paul: “I hate women and they need to shut up. Please let us stay at your house and eat your food and take your money.”
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Women should keep silent in the assembly?
- Thread starter IndigoChild5559
- Start date
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Hi IndigoChild5559. Yom Tov. It looks like we will have to agree to disagree. You believe that Eve was equal to Adam in the Garden of Eden, but you seem to forget the Law of Yahweh IS Eden restored. In the Bible, the firstborn has the pre-eminence. Look up the word pre-eminence some time. You won’t like the definition, but there you have it. Adam had the pre-eminence in the Garden of Eden. You can’t argue with the Torah Law or you risk adding to the Word of Yahweh. Yahshua our Saviour was the firstborn of the dead. He also has the pre-eminence we read in Colossians 1:18. You’ll remember when Reuben sinned (Reuben being the firstborn) in Genesis Jacob said he wouldn’t have the pre-eminence.
When Eve sinned, this may have been reaffirmed that the woman would have to be in subjection to the man. You might consider being in subjection to another as a curse, but to those who have experienced the beauty of Yahweh’s way, being in subjection is not a curse. As I said, the man is to be subject to the Messiah also. He also has to be subject to another. And even the Messiah, in all his perfection as one who overcame all evil, is subject to Yahweh. So the problem you have with women being in subjection to their husbands or a man in my opinion probably stems from a bad experience you have had wherein the man was not subject to the Messiah and acted in a way that was inappropriate. If a man is subject to the Messiah as he is supposed to be, she (whoever she is) should have no problem subjecting themselves to him.
You have said you are a professional counsellor. That’s great. But there is another who is a wonderful counsellor and that is Yahshua the Messiah (Isaiah 9:6). If he were counselling, he would unequivocally agree that one has to be subject to another in a marriage. You’ve counselled undoubtedly a lot of people but I’m amazed that you haven’t reached the conclusion that the reason why so many people are in degrading marriages is because they haven’t subjected themselves to the Messiah. If the man is subject to the Messiah and the woman subject to the man, everything runs smoothly. Can you prove otherwise? I have seen this in marriage and so I can witness that this is true. The Bible teaches a man to love their wives and not be bitter against them (Colossians 3:19). I was reading the Books of Colossians yesterday. It’s a short read but there’s lots of good material in it.
You said: “As a professional counselor, I can't tell you how many women are trapped in degrading marriages because they aren't willing to be single.” It’s only natural that men and women should want to get married. I think the Torah Law, specifically the ten commandments encourage marriage through the seventh commandment, You shall not commit adultery. In order not to commit adultery, one has to be married. How better could Yahweh have encouraged marriage than by putting this Law in the Bible, especially in the 10 commandments, the heart of Yahweh’s Law. 1 Timothy 4:3 says they are those who forbid marriage. Marriage is a good thing. One of my really likeable quotes from the Proverbs is Proverbs 18:22. Finding a wife is a good thing. The institution of marriage is a blessing. Of course I agree that marriage isn't for everyone. Some people lack the maturity for it.
Anyway, it doesn’t seem like we will agree at all even though I feel you have taken a position against the Torah law which is a shame. I have enjoyed our discussions but it looks like I can’t convince you on this subject.
CBM
Member
Hey there!
I did not read through the entire thread, but thought I’d give my perspective as an Orthodox Jewish woman.
Firstly I think it’s important to state that Judaism should NOT be viewed through the lens of Christianity. It happens all the time and it’s one of my pet peeves.
It causes many misconceptions regarding the foundations of Judaism as well as how it’s actually practiced.
People believe that they know what Judaism is by virtue of having a working knowledge of Christianity and that is just not how it is.
Now that that’s said...
Women fulfilled extremely important roles throughout Jewish history - and not just supportive ones.
There was Devorah the prophetess who taught Torah to the masses.
There was Yael and Yehudis, each who stepped fully in to their feminine power to enable the Jews to win battles/ wars.
There was Bruria, the wife of R’ Meir, who gave Torah lectures to many students in the 2nd century BCE.
Jewish women have strongly impacted and shaped Judaism and the Jewish people.
Today, there are many women who give Torah lectures in all areas. You still will be hard pressed to find Hareidi women learning Talmud, although there is a movement of more modern Orthodox women who do the Daf, I believe. It’s generally not encouraged in most Orthodox circles, although it’s certainly allowed.
In general I feel like my voice is heard. Orthodox and ultra Orthodox girls are usually taught a tremendous amount as part of their education- including Tanach and numerous commentaries, Jewish law (Halacha), Jewish thought etc.
Women are considered completely trustworthy in Jewish law - whether it’s kashrut, family purity etc.
Regarding women Rabbis, there is the idea that certain roles are to be fulfilled by men only. I don’t view that as diminishing to women. The ability to be ordained as a Rabbi is exclusive to men and there are areas of Judaism that are exclusive to women. I don’t see a problem with that.
Women can and do have roles as teachers and leaders even in the most ultra orthodox communities.
I still agree that in general reality does not reflect the ideal, and women are not valued the way men are.
The story in the medrash of the sun and the moon where the moon complains two cannot share one crown and so God agrees with the moon and minimizes it, parallels man and woman.
A great book on the subject would be Kabbalistic Writings on the Nature of the Masculine and Feminine by SY Schneider.
Another great book is Circle, Arrow Spiral by Miriam Kosman.
One of the signs of the messianic era is when femininity and women are equal, valued properly and command equal respect.
(But as far as I understand that does NOT represent an actual change in Halacha where women can suddenly practice as Rabbis [btw, just to be clear, Rabbi means someone who extrapolates Jewish law from a vast array of texts and sources and applies it to specific scenarios; we call it paskening]. It means that women and feminine attributes will be accorded the respect it deserves; the way masculine energy gets the respect it deserves in society now. Eden is feminine energy; so is Shabbat - the art of being.)
In fact COVID 19 brought a lot of feminine energy into our lives where we had to stop doing, where we realized that perhaps success is not only what we accomplish, but also - and just as, if not more, important- who we are.
I heard this in a lecture:
COVID means respect in Hebrew; corona means crown - but it’s the same idea putting on a pedestal. 19 is the gematria of Chava, the archetype of femininity in Judaism. Basically putting Chava, femininity and what it represents, on a pedestal.
I did not read through the entire thread, but thought I’d give my perspective as an Orthodox Jewish woman.
Firstly I think it’s important to state that Judaism should NOT be viewed through the lens of Christianity. It happens all the time and it’s one of my pet peeves.
It causes many misconceptions regarding the foundations of Judaism as well as how it’s actually practiced.
People believe that they know what Judaism is by virtue of having a working knowledge of Christianity and that is just not how it is.
Now that that’s said...
Women fulfilled extremely important roles throughout Jewish history - and not just supportive ones.
There was Devorah the prophetess who taught Torah to the masses.
There was Yael and Yehudis, each who stepped fully in to their feminine power to enable the Jews to win battles/ wars.
There was Bruria, the wife of R’ Meir, who gave Torah lectures to many students in the 2nd century BCE.
Jewish women have strongly impacted and shaped Judaism and the Jewish people.
Today, there are many women who give Torah lectures in all areas. You still will be hard pressed to find Hareidi women learning Talmud, although there is a movement of more modern Orthodox women who do the Daf, I believe. It’s generally not encouraged in most Orthodox circles, although it’s certainly allowed.
In general I feel like my voice is heard. Orthodox and ultra Orthodox girls are usually taught a tremendous amount as part of their education- including Tanach and numerous commentaries, Jewish law (Halacha), Jewish thought etc.
Women are considered completely trustworthy in Jewish law - whether it’s kashrut, family purity etc.
Regarding women Rabbis, there is the idea that certain roles are to be fulfilled by men only. I don’t view that as diminishing to women. The ability to be ordained as a Rabbi is exclusive to men and there are areas of Judaism that are exclusive to women. I don’t see a problem with that.
Women can and do have roles as teachers and leaders even in the most ultra orthodox communities.
I still agree that in general reality does not reflect the ideal, and women are not valued the way men are.
The story in the medrash of the sun and the moon where the moon complains two cannot share one crown and so God agrees with the moon and minimizes it, parallels man and woman.
A great book on the subject would be Kabbalistic Writings on the Nature of the Masculine and Feminine by SY Schneider.
Another great book is Circle, Arrow Spiral by Miriam Kosman.
One of the signs of the messianic era is when femininity and women are equal, valued properly and command equal respect.
(But as far as I understand that does NOT represent an actual change in Halacha where women can suddenly practice as Rabbis [btw, just to be clear, Rabbi means someone who extrapolates Jewish law from a vast array of texts and sources and applies it to specific scenarios; we call it paskening]. It means that women and feminine attributes will be accorded the respect it deserves; the way masculine energy gets the respect it deserves in society now. Eden is feminine energy; so is Shabbat - the art of being.)
In fact COVID 19 brought a lot of feminine energy into our lives where we had to stop doing, where we realized that perhaps success is not only what we accomplish, but also - and just as, if not more, important- who we are.
I heard this in a lecture:
COVID means respect in Hebrew; corona means crown - but it’s the same idea putting on a pedestal. 19 is the gematria of Chava, the archetype of femininity in Judaism. Basically putting Chava, femininity and what it represents, on a pedestal.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Was Isaac firstborn? No. Was Jacob firstborn? No.
They both sinned.
Actually, statistically, Born Again Christians, who pursue this ideal, have the highest divorce rate. YOu know who has the lowest divorce rate? Atheists. While I can't prove it scientifically, I am of the opinion that this is because Atheists have a more realistic idea of what marriage entails going in, and thus do not become disillusioned. Born Agains, on the other hand, become confused when putting Jesus first doesn't lead to peaches and cream, and then become bitter, angry, and disillusioned.
[/quote]You said: “As a professional counselor, I can't tell you how many women are trapped in degrading marriages because they aren't willing to be single.” It’s only natural that men and women should want to get married. I think the Torah Law, specifically the ten commandments encourage marriage through the seventh commandment, You shall not commit adultery. In order not to commit adultery, one has to be married. How better could Yahweh have encouraged marriage than by putting this Law in the Bible, especially in the 10 commandments, the heart of Yahweh’s Law. 1 Timothy 4:3 says they are those who forbid marriage. Marriage is a good thing.[/QUOTE]
I agree that marriage is a good thing. The first 8 years of my marriage were the happiest of my life. I highly recommend marriage. BUT ONLY IF ITS A GOOD AND HEALTHY MARRIAGE. If it's toxic, its a worse state than being single. One form of being toxic is if one person lords it over the other, depriving them of their dignity, and ruining the partnership nature of it. If it were the woman lording it over the man, you would see the sense in what I'm saying immediately. You just need to have one standard that you apply for both, instead of having this bias.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Well, I can hunt and cook and get pregnant but a man needs a woman to exist.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Supposedly Paul, who is neither my messiah nor my God.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
But then men shouldn’t be doing that either.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Exactly, that is 1 important point
Another very important point is, that some people seem to find it natural to impose their beliefs on others (in this case "all ladies should keep silent..")
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Well, we’re not the ones freaking out over women with authority. I declare, I believe they might have the vapors. We need to surround them with pillows in case they swoon.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
I believe it is distasteful to ignore the majority of someone's post - just because they soundly refute your claims - and make little impotent jabs like this one.
The fact that Adam also partook of the fruit does not refute the fact that Eve made a unilateral decision - without Adam - to partake of the fruit.
She singlehandedly brought sin and death into the world.
However - rather than place "blame" on her - I am grateful to her - because I believe that her decision was critical to God's Plan and the eventual perfection of Mankind.
And you inadvertently proved my point about the Patriarchal Order of Heaven.
For - even though it was Eve who had been deceived and decided to damn all Mankind all on her own - it was Adam who was the inheritor of the blame.
The Fall of Man is attributed to Adam - not Eve.
This is so because - according to the Patriarchal Order of Heaven - he was her husband at the time that she made the decision - and he is responsible for her.
And when God came back to the Garden after they partook He asked Adam - not Eve - for an accounting of what had happened (and of course He already knew what had happened) and Adam knew that he was responsible - but he explained that is reason for partaking was to follow God's other commandment and to remain with Eve.
So - I don't know why you are bemoaning the idea of the Patriarchal Order of Heaven considering that it was designed to protect wives and children.
And I believe that Adam also showed great insight in deciding to partake of the fruit. For we know that he was not deceived - meaning he knew that death would enter into the world - but he chose to partake to remain with Eve.
He could have refused to partake - but then he would have been failing his duty as her husband and he would have been disobeying God's commandment to remain with Eve and procreate with her.
As you said previously - Adam and Eve are the example of a perfect couple - but not for the reasons you mentioned.
For he was rigid in his determination to obey all the commandments of God - his not being deceived points to the idea that the serpent went to Adam first and failed to convince him to partake.
Yet - we were not put on this Earth to be automatons - so Eve's willingness to risk death in order to gain Knowledge - and therefore wisdom - with the hope of being like God was crucial and ultimately for our good.
We need both of these qualities in our married lives. Someone who knows God's Laws, keeps them and instructs others to do so and another who is willing to look beyond the letter of the Law and find pearls of wisdom gained through experience.
God wants us to have both of these things - and He has set it up so that the primary role of husbands is to be like Adam - stalwart and rigid - and the wives to be like Eve - looking beyond the Law to find joy.
Hopefully - if both husband and wife perform their primary roles well - they will start to gain attributes from each other - and grow and eventually become perfect in Christ.
Adam and Eve are the perfect example of a couple - as you said - but the conditions in the Garden do not translate well to us here in mortality - for their was no sin and death there.
Adam had no need to protect Eve and Eve had no children to nurture - so they were unable to fulfill many of their primary roles while they were in the Garden before they entered into mortality.
Interesting though - I'd like to share another example of the Patriarchal Order of Heaven showcased in the first chapters of Genesis.
The Genesis account claims that God told Adam not to partake of the Fruit before He had created Eve from Adam's rib - and the record does not claim that God repeated that commandment.
However - when the serpent tempted Eve - she did not claim that she could not eat of the fruit - but that she could not touch it - lest she die.
And then after the serpent convinced her to partake - the record claims that she noticed that the fruit was good for food - indicating that before this time she had not even looked at the fruit.
What does all this tell us?
That God gave the commandment to Adam not to partake of the fruit and He expected Adam to relay that commandment to his wife - because that was his primary role as her husband.
And Adam - being the good ol-Boy Scout - decided to embellish on that commandment and told Eve to not even touch the fruit - lest she die. Then it seems he went even deeper and told her to not even look at the fruit.
And - of course - Adam was blamed for the entire ordeal - also according to the Patriarchal Order of Heaven.
So - forgive me - I don't see any reason for you - or any woman - to cry about this hierarchy - which was designed to protect wives and children and support husbands.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
I don't understand how a "side" could be taken from man.
If the text said that she "came out" of Adam's side I'd think this idea had credence.
But it claims that God took something from the man and made the woman from it.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Actually it is distasteful to keep replying after a person has told you that the discussion is over.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
How is it "over" if you keep responding?
I understand the desire to have the last word - but having it doesn't mean that you are right or that you "won".
I think you would benefit by reading and discussing my entire posts - rather than ignoring them.
That is distasteful.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
We should keep in mind that Paul's instructions in letters apply to specific problems in specific communities in specific times.
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
Where does it say that?
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
In church.
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
And a man, too. Biology 101
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
To have a wife going to work while the man takes care of the house? Having the wife go grocery shopping while the man cooks?
And so when burglars come the husband hides in the bedroom and the wife goes to the door with a bat or a gun or something and deals with it - protects the husband and his dignity. Agree to that with a straight face and I believe your sincerity in your wish for equality.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Or they could both meet the burglar armed and dangerous.