Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[katiemygirl]

The verses are quite clear. You seem to be off topic, and i'm not really interested in that.

Off topic? Read the OP again. Does it not say,

"I've heard it said we are saved from hell by grace alone through faith alone."

I am asking you or anyone to show me in the Scriptures where the word ALONE is used.

Opinions are meaningless.Let's stick to God's word.

 

[katiemygirl]

="atpollard, post: 4241501, member: 56780"]
Does this not say:
I have been saved ... By grace ... Through faith ... Not by works.

It absolutely says we have been saved by grace through faith.

What does "through faith" mean to you? IMHO, faith is living and active. Faith causes a response. Repentance and baptism are responses to faith. We see examples of this on Pentecost and again with the jailer. Faith all by itself, without action, is dead.

Which as verse 10 points out, does not mean that "works" have no place in our life.
It merely points out that good works are the 'fruit' of our salvation and not the 'root' of our salvation.
As James describes quite well, if I encounter an Apple Tree that never bears any fruit, I have every reason to suspect that it is either not an Apple Tree at all or that it is a dead Apple Tree.

How do you see this text differently?

I agree that "good works" are the fruit of salvation and not the root of it.

Now let me ask you this. Do you think believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is a "good work?"

Do you consider repentance a "good work?"

What about confessing Jesus before men? Is that a "good work?"

And what about baptism? Is that a "good work?"

James addresses good works which are the result of salvation.

Paul, in Ephesians 2, is referencing works of the Law of Moses. I don't think you can deny that there was an element of Judaizers who were trying to impose the Law of Moses onto the newly converted Gentiles. Paul argues against this in much of his writings, especially in his letter to the Galatians.

I don't believe Paul is saying that one is not saved by works of faith such as repentance, confessing Jesus and being baptized. If he were, then he would be contradicting Jesus, who said, "Unless you repent, you will perish." One cannot be saved unless they repent. Salvation does not precede repentance.

As I read the Scriptures, I see that there are different kinds of works found in the Bible. There are good works/deeds, works of the Law, works of men, works of Satan, works of faith, etc.

Jesus gave us His terms of salvation. Faith causes us to meet those terms. This is how I view Eph. 2. When Paul says we are saved through faith, he is saying that because of our faith in Jesus Christ, we obey the gospel. We repent. We are baptized.

The alternative view to mine is calvinism, which says we are saved through faith, which comes exclusively from God, and that God predestines certain individuals to salvation. The rest of humanity is condemned to eternal punishment, never having a choice or chance to be redeemed. This is what I think your view is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus gave us His terms of salvation. Faith causes us to meet those terms. This is how I view Eph. 2. When Paul says we are saved through faith, he is saying that because of our faith in Jesus Christ, we obey the gospel. We repent. We are baptized.

The alternative view to mine is Calvinism, which says we are saved through faith, which comes exclusively from God, and that God predestines certain individuals to salvation. The rest of humanity is condemned to eternal punishment, never having a choice or chance to be redeemed. This is what I think your view is. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you.
I think that we are disagreeing on a simple point of semantics ... the definition of "works".
My definition of works was "efforts designed to earn God's favor" ... in other words: "Salvation is the wages of the things that I have done." ... so I do not see "works" (my definition) as earning 'Grace'.
I suspect that you would not disagree.

Your definition of works was "obedience to what Jesus/God commands" ... in other words: "Salvation is the result of coming to Jesus on His terms." ... so you see "works" (your definition) as proof of Faith.
I would not disagree ... how can I claim to Believe, Trust and Follow Jesus if I am unwilling to do as he says.

On the subject of my being a Calvinist ... guilty as charged.
Ironically, I came to the Calvinist conclusions long before I ever found a Calvinist Church or ever heard of Calvinism.
God saving bad people in spite of themselves just fit my personal salvation experience better than the other view.
I later did a fair amount of reading on the Calvin and Arminius debate and was surprised how small the actual difference is when you honestly look at what they said.

Strictly my paraphrase of the concept but ...

Option 1:
People have some good in them and reach up towards God as high as they can.
Unfortunately, nobody can really come close to reaching the whole distance, so God accepts whatever effort you make towards him and gives you the Grace to reach higher.
In the end, God reaches down to save you, pulling you up into his waiting arms of salvation.

Option 2:
People have no innate good in them, so without God's help, no one would reach up towards God at all.
So God gives Grace to some, chosen for reasons known only to god, but not for any innate merit in the chosen, to enable them to reach towards him in the first place.
Then a loving God reaches down to save you, pulling you up into his waiting arms of salvation.

That is the difference that I see.
Those whom God saves early, tend to see things from Option 1.
Those whom God saves out of great sin, tend to see things from Option 2.
I suspect that God is actually guilty of both types of salvation ... those saved through God honoring the generational blessings and those whom God saves to demonstrate that NOBODY is beyond His reach.
I simply see God as the first cause in all salvation ... emphasizing the Sovereign will of God over the Free will of man.
Those who disagree tend to emphasize the Free will of man over the Sovereign will of God.

IMHO ... If your heart loves Jesus as my heart does, then Calvinism-Arminianism is a small matter ... not worth fighting over.

[Edit: When we get to heaven, one of us owes the other a friendly "I told you so." ]

 

[katiemygirl]

Im not answering on behalf of KatieMyGirl because she may have her own view on this, but Gods love is not unconditional. If it were, he would not have given us laws.

And to prove that his love is not unconditional we can look at the history of the ancient nation of Isreal. When they were his chosen people, it was dependent on strict conditions:

“If you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Exodus 19:5, 6)​

Deuteronomy 31:16, 17

Jehovah now said to Moses: “Look! You are about to die,* and this people will begin to commit spiritual prostitution with the foreign gods that are around them in the land to which they are going.+They will forsake me+ and break my covenant that I have made with them.+ 17 At that time my anger will blaze against them,+ and I will forsake them+ and hide my face from them+ until they are devoured. ​

Gods love has never been unconditional nor will it ever be.

God never stops loving His creation, neither sinner nor saint. He hates their disobedience but never them. That would go against His nature. The verses you quoted in no way say God's love is conditional.

God hates sin. He loves sinners and wants ALL men to come to repentance.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

You are saying God didn't love the world, which contradicts John 3:16. Obviously God loved sinners enough that He sent His Son to die for them

“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved” (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Did you catch that? God loved us even when we were dead in our transgressions.

"This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins" (1 John 4:9-10).

God loves us even when we don 't love Him.

If God’s love were conditional, then we would have to do something to earn or merit it. We would have to somehow appease His wrath and cleanse ourselves of our sin before God would be able to love us. But that is not the biblical message. The biblical message is that God was motivated by His unconditional love to save His creation.

I don't know how you could have missed the boat on this one. Is this your own personal view, or do the JW's actually teach that God's love is conditional? Forgive me if this sounds sarcastic. It's not meant to be. I'm just wondering how you could have come up with such a conclusion when the Svriptures are so clear about how much God loves us all.

 

[Spockrates]

My view is based on truth that the soul is the living person. Adam became a living soul when life was put into him. Animals are called 'souls' in the book of genesis. And Ezekiel 18;4 says "All the souls to me they belong, so the soul of the father likewise the soul of the son.... the soul that is sinning, it itself will die"

Why does the bible say the soul dies if the soul is not the living person? I wouldnt make sense for God to give man an eternal soul and then tell us the soul can die, would it?

And consider the words of Ecclesiastes chapter 9:
2 All have the very same outcome,*+ the righteous and the wicked,+ the good and the clean and the unclean, those sacrificing and those not sacrificing. The good one is the same as the sinner; the one who swears an oath is the same as the one who is cautious about swearing an oath. 3 This is a distressing thing that happens under the sun: Because all have the same outcome,*+ the heart of humans is also full of bad; and there is madness in their heart during their life, and then they die!*
4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion.+ 5 For the living know* that they will die,+ but the dead know nothing at all,+ nor do they have any more reward,* because all memory of them is forgotten.

A dead person knows 'nothing' ... they do not keep living in some other form as many believe. In fact, we are no different to the animals in that regard: Eccl 3:19 For there is an eventuality*as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality.+As the one dies,*so the other dies;+and they all have but one spirit,*+so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. 20 All are going to one place.+ They have all come to be from the dust,*+ and they are all returning to the dust.+

I find your ideas about the soul fascinating and worthy of a discussion of their own. Please let me know if you start one.

I think the point of Jesus discussion is to point out the obvious and that is that we are sinners and will make many mistakes. We may make the same mistakes again and again. Repentance will be an ongoing requirement and sin is something that we will continually need to improve on. But it doesnt mean repentance is pointless.... repentance is the equivalent of getting back up on our feet and dusting ourselves off after we have taken a fall into the dirt.

Yes, what you say reminds me of Jesus' words:

"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance."
(Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8)​

I'm also reminded of what James wrote:

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
(James 2:17)​

Would you say that just as faith without action is dead, so too repentance without action is dead?

The apostles didn't need to be perfect to be given the responsibility to lay down Christs teachings. And likewise, no christian disciple needs to be perfect to preach the kingdom message. But what we do need is humility and modesty because without these two qualities, it would be very easy to set up ourselves as authorities on Gods Word and teach contradictory messages as many religious teachers do.

Agreed. For I'm once again reminded of the words of one non-Apostle:

If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.
(James 1:5)​

I suppose if God does not find fault with anyone who asks for wisdom--even someone as far from moral perfection as me--he certainly would not have withheld wisdom from those authors of the New Tesament.

 

[Desert Snake]

Off topic? Read the OP again. Does it not say,

"I've heard it said we are saved from hell by grace alone through faith alone."

I am asking you or anyone to show me in the Scriptures where the word ALONE is used.

Opinions are meaningless.Let's stick to God's word.

It doesn't have to say that explicitly, in that manner. Because it HAS to mean that, if works alone do not save.
You are getting the ''works'' mixed up here; the works that are necessary with faith are not the same type of ''works'' that you or some church etc. expresses as good Christian actions; different things.

 

[katiemygirl]

It doesn't have to say that explicitly, in that manner. Because it HAS to mean that, if works alone do not save.
You are getting the ''works'' mixed up here; the works that are necessary with faith are not the same type of ''works'' that you or some church etc. expresses as good Christian actions; different things.

Of course the Bible must say it explicitly, otherwise it is the interpretation and doctrine of men.

People string verses together all the time and come up with all sorts of false teachings.

The Bible says nowhere that grace ALONE saves. Nor does it say faith ALONE saves. I'll stick with what the Bible says.

 

[katiemygirl]

="atpollard, post: 4241838, member: 56780"]Thank you.
I think that we are disagreeing on a simple point of semantics ... the definition of "works".
My definition of works was "efforts designed to earn God's favor" ... in other words: "Salvation is the wages of the things that I have done." ... so I do not see "works" (my definition) as earning 'Grace'.
I suspect that you would not disagree.

If your view of works were correct, I would agree with you.

Tell me this. Who "designed" repentance and baptism? Did these actions come from man or did God create them?

Your definition of works was "obedience to what Jesus/God commands" ... in other words: "Salvation is the result of coming to Jesus on His terms." ... so you see "works" (your definition) as proof of Faith.
I would not disagree ... how can I claim to Believe, Trust and Follow Jesus if I am unwilling to do as he says.

Actually, I didn't really define works
I think what I was trying to say is that works falls into different categories, and the works Paul writes about in Eph. 2 are not repentance and baptism. I believe the works Paul was speaking about were works of self.

On the subject of my being a Calvinist ... guilty as charged.
Ironically, I came to the Calvinist conclusions long before I ever found a Calvinist Church or ever heard of Calvinism.
God saving bad people in spite of themselves just fit my personal salvation experience better than the other view.
I later did a fair amount of reading on the Calvin and Arminius debate and was surprised how small the actual difference is when you honestly look at what they said.

If you could see God saving men despite themselves without someone teaching you that concept, were you also able to see God condemning men despite themselves?

Strictly my paraphrase of the concept but ...

Option 1:
People have some good in them and reach up towards God as high as they can.
Unfortunately, nobody can really come close to reaching the whole distance, so God accepts whatever effort you make towards him and gives you the Grace to reach higher.
In the end, God reaches down to save you, pulling you up into his waiting arms of salvation.

Option 2:
People have no innate good in them, so without God's help, no one would reach up towards God at all.
So God gives Grace to some, chosen for reasons known only to god, but not for any innate merit in the chosen, to enable them to reach towards him in the first place.
Then a loving God reaches down to save you, pulling you up into his waiting arms of salvation.

That is the difference that I see.
Those whom God saves early, tend to see things from Option 1.
Those whom God saves out of great sin, tend to see things from Option 2.
I suspect that God is actually guilty of both types of salvation ... those saved through God honoring the generational blessings and those whom God saves to demonstrate that NOBODY is beyond His reach.
I simply see God as the first cause in all salvation ... emphasizing the Sovereign will of God over the Free will of man.
Those who disagree tend to emphasize the Free will of man over the Sovereign will of God.

I'm sorry but I cannot get past thinking that God would create people who have no chance or choice to be saved. To me, that goes against His loving nature. I believe the Bible teaches all are equal and each of us must make a choice whether or not to follow Jesus.

IMHO ... If your heart loves Jesus as my heart does, then Calvinism-Arminianism is a small matter ... not worth fighting over.

[Edit: When we get to heaven, one of us owes the other a friendly "I told you so."

I have no doubt that your heart loves Jesus. I know mine does! We'll have to agree to let Him sort it all out for us when we get there. And believe me, I will be most happy to apologize if I was wrong.

 

[lovemuffin]

But isn't there something to be said for those translators who understand better than you or I do how to best translate the word in each context? I mean, if there were several good translations rendering the word as faithful, that would be evidence supporting the premise that the word should be understood as such.

Sure. And I don't think "faith" is a bad choice of english word in this context. And I think something about belief is certainly implied by Ephesians 2:8. What I think is probably a mistake is to hear the exhortation to be only a matter of belief, in the kind of technical way that some Christians conceive of salvation. That's not just a question of exegesis of one verse in isolation but in consideration of the entire NT and Christian tradition as well, though.

 

[katiemygirl]

Yes, many times--some books more than others. I've also read the entire Old Testament a few times. My favorite books are Psalms and the Gospel of John. What are yours?

My favorites have changed over the years. My current is probably Acts. John ranks right up there as do Psalms.

By the way, it seems odd to me that after reading through the NT, you would still not have a definitive answer about how we are saved.

 

[katiemygirl]

Oh yes, I know you are not Evangelical or Fundamentalist based on your expressed beliefs. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists would likely say you are sincere, but sincerely wrong and suggest you have denied the fundamentals of the Christian faith. As for me, I think you are onto something. I find your reasoning compelling and likely supported by scripture.



But I wonder if everything you have said is true. I mean, you say God's grace is conditional, but his love is not. Does that mean saving us is certainly not an act of his love?

No, I am not saying that saving us is not an act of God's love. Salvation is indeed an act motivated by God's love for us, and His love is unconditional.

But the grace that brings salvation is conditional. If God's grace is unconditional, then all people will be saved, since His grace extends to all. This is universalism, but it contradicts passages showing many will be lost (Matt. 7:13,14,21-23; 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:6-9; etc.).. Can you agree with this?

How do you define grace? I see it as an unearned gift from God, and under some situations it is unconditional: the gift of life, the air we breath, our good health, our unique talents, abilities, etc. can all be attributed to the grace of God.

I believe God's grace is motivated by His love, but I don't see His grace and His love being the same thing.

Salvation is a free, unearned, undeserved gift from God, but He has set forth conditions for salvation. Jesus said we must believe He is the Son of God. That is a condition.

I don't know how anyone can read the words of Jesus in Luke 13:3, 5, "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish," and still say God's grace is unconditional. Repentance is a condition for salvation.

 

[Pegg]

God never stops loving His creation, neither sinner nor saint. He hates their disobedience but never them. That would go against His nature. The verses you quoted in no way say God's love is conditional.

God hates sin. He loves sinners and wants ALL men to come to repentance.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

You are saying God didn't love the world, which contradicts John 3:16. Obviously God loved sinners enough that He sent His Son to die for them

“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved” (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Did you catch that? God loved us even when we were dead in our transgressions.

"This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins" (1 John 4:9-10).

God loves us even when we don 't love Him.

If God’s love were conditional, then we would have to do something to earn or merit it. We would have to somehow appease His wrath and cleanse ourselves of our sin before God would be able to love us. But that is not the biblical message. The biblical message is that God was motivated by His unconditional love to save His creation.

I agree with you that God loves all his cretaion, however, not all his creation will be saved will they? The bible says that many will go off into destruction, does it not?

“Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14)​

We need to be realistic when speaking about Gods great love for us. Of course he loves us all, but that does not mean everyone is going to attain to salvation. He tells mankind what we must do to be saved from death... but he will not save those who do not respond...even Jesus testified to that fact in the verse above. And the to Israelites God gave this warning:

Deut 30:15 “See, I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad.+ 16 If you listen to the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you today, by loving Jehovah your God,+ by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his judicial decisions, then you will live+ and multiply, and Jehovah your God will bless you in the land you are going to possess.+
17 “But if your heart turns away+ and you do not listen and you are enticed and bow down to other gods and serve them,+ 18 I tell you today that you will certainly perish.+​

Joshua 23:15 But just as all the good promises that Jehovah your God has spoken to you have come upon you,+ so Jehovah will bring upon you all the calamity that he promised* and will annihilate you from this good land that Jehovah your God has given you.​

I don't know how you could have missed the boat on this one. Is this your own personal view, or do the JW's actually teach that God's love is conditional? Forgive me if this sounds sarcastic. It's not meant to be. I'm just wondering how you could have come up with such a conclusion when the Svriptures are so clear about how much God loves us all.

Im not saying that God does not love us all. He certainly does. But that does not mean that all are saved. The scriptures tell us what the future will hold and it is not a pretty future for everyone. This is why its important to be realistic and really be careful in what we are teaching because if we teach to the effect that everyone is saved because God loves you, then that may give the impression that they have no need to do anything more.
Jesus said this:

“You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48)​

Jesus words imply that we must be continually striving to do what is right while in our imperfect condition. And if our salvation is dependent upon our obedience to Gods laws as Christ indicated it was, ie Matt 19:17 '... If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.” then we obviously must bring our life into harmony with them before we are awarded any kind of salvation.

 

[Desert Snake]

Of course the Bible must say it explicitly, otherwise it is the interpretation and doctrine of men.

People string verses together all the time and come up with all sorts of false teachings.

The Bible says nowhere that grace ALONE saves. Nor does it say faith ALONE saves. I'll stick with what the Bible says.

Great. So who's version or idea of ''works'' is the correct one in this context?

 

[atpollard]

Tell me this. Who "designed" repentance and baptism? Did these actions come from man or did God create them?

Now there is an interesting question.
I would need to spend some time to give you a serious Biblical answer, so what follows is all ME and may or may not represent the opinions of God.

Repentence is a state of mind.
A mental prerequisite to receive Faith.
One can not TRUST in God if one does not believe that God's opinion is correct and my opinion is wrong.
Repentence is the Arminian hand shake between a desperate hopeful man and a God ready to freely dispense Grace.
So 'who designed it'? ... That is a hard question.
Every Calvinist bone in my body says that God designed repentence ... HIS first act of Grace was to send the Holy Spirit to move the heart of his future 'bride' to see the world through God's eyes ... and once seen through God's eyes the soon to be saved heart cries out in agreement that God was right and I was wrong ... Repentence.

Baptism is easier.
As a former gang member, I get loyalty.
If you deny me before men, then I will deny you before God ... If you confess me before men, then I will acknowledge you before God ... I get it.
Baptism is about not being some punk stealth Christian.
People accept Christ and face the constant risk of immediate execution.
Christ accepted the beat down of all beat downs to pay my sin debt.
Standing up and publicly proclaiming "I am with Jesus" is really a pretty small price to pay for what he is offering in exchange.

I think that I will save the discussion on Calvinism for another topic.

 

[Spockrates]

Sure. And I don't think "faith" is a bad choice of english word in this context. And I think something about belief is certainly implied by Ephesians 2:8. What I think is probably a mistake is to hear the exhortation to be only a matter of belief, in the kind of technical way that some Christians conceive of salvation. That's not just a question of exegesis of one verse in isolation but in consideration of the entire NT and Christian tradition as well, though.

Yes, I agree. Much of Ephesians is about faithfulness, as is the immediate context of verse 10.

 

[Spockrates]

My favorites have changed over the years. My current is probably Acts. John ranks right up there as do Psalms.

By the way, it seems odd to me that after reading through the NT, you would still not have a definitive answer about how we are saved.

My favorite color has never changed, either--it's blue, and my favorite season has always been autumn. My tastes in food, music, movies and pets has changed, though. I currently own three dogs and like to take them for walks.



I find it interesting--though not fascinating--you find it odd. (I reserve the word fascinating for those opinions that surprise me.) Perhaps I'll better understand why you have this opinion if you answer a few more question about why you believe. If I find why you believe is a good reason why I should believe, then I'll no longer have any doubts! For I'll then believe as you do.

 

[Spockrates]

No, I am not saying that saving us is not an act of God's love. Salvation is indeed an act motivated by God's love for us, and His love is unconditional.

But the grace that brings salvation is conditional. If God's grace is unconditional, then all people will be saved, since His grace extends to all. This is universalism, but it contradicts passages showing many will be lost (Matt. 7:13,14,21-23; 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:6-9; etc.).. Can you agree with this?

How do you define grace? I see it as an unearned gift from God, and under some situations it is unconditional: the gift of life, the air we breath, our good health, our unique talents, abilities, etc. can all be attributed to the grace of God.

I believe God's grace is motivated by His love, but I don't see His grace and His love being the same thing.

Salvation is a free, unearned, undeserved gift from God, but He has set forth conditions for salvation. Jesus said we must believe He is the Son of God. That is a condition.

I don't know how anyone can read the words of Jesus in Luke 13:3, 5, "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish," and still say God's grace is unconditional. Repentance is a condition for salvation.

I don't know how to define grace, MyGirl. If I did, I'd be more certain of what Paul means when he tells me, "By grace you are saved..." I do have some idea what others believe grace is. Evangelicals say it is God's unmerited favor, or love. Catholics say it is God's unmerited power to empower us to become more like Christ. So an Evangelical interprets Paul's words:

By [God's undeserved love] you are saved, through faith.
​

But a Catholic interprets Paul's words:

By [God's undeserved power] you are saved, through faith.​

The former believes nothing we do saves us. The latter believes only what we do by God's power saves us. Me? I believe this:

By [some method unknown to me] you are saved, through faith.​

So you see my dilemma? I must put faith in the method God uses--his love to declare me saved, or his power to make me able to save myself, or something else. But how can I put faith in what I do not know? I don't believe I can. So I'd infer this is a more precise rendering of how to be saved:

By [some method unknown to me] you are saved, through faith [and through wisdom].
​

For if I don't discover the wisdom to know what grace is, I'll never know what to put my faith in!

So I'm curious to hear more about what you believe grace is and how you know your understanding is correct. You said God's grace is a gift, but Evangelicals and Catholics say the same, and you see how they have opposing ideas about what kind of gift it is.

So please help me unwrap the gift of grace, as you know it. When I remove the gift wrap, what do I see? God's love, God's power, or something else?

 

[katiemygirl]

="Pegg, post: 4242663, member: 23994"]I agree with you that God loves all his cretaion, however, not all his creation will be saved will they? The bible says that many will go off into destruction, does it not?

That's correct! Not all will be saved. But you made the claim that God's love was conditional. That statement was incorrect.

Im not saying that God does not love us all. He certainly does. But that does not mean that all are saved. The scriptures tell us what the future will hold and it is not a pretty future for everyone. This is why its important to be realistic and really be careful in what we are teaching because if we teach to the effect that everyone is saved because God loves you, then that may give the impression that they have no need to do anything more.

You very clearly stated that God's love was conditional. Neither I nor anyone here ever suggested that all would be saved. I don't know why you have spent all this time and effort to prove God doesn't save everyone. You're preaching to the choir.

Why can't you simply admit you made a mistake when you said God's love is conditional instead of deflecting?

It's okay to make a mistake. We all do it. It takes a strong person to admit they were wrong, and you would certainly gain my respect if you did.

 

[katiemygirl]

"Spockrates, post: 4243520, member: 56793"

I don't know how to define grace, MyGirl. If I did, I'd be more certain of what Paul means when he tells me, "By grace you are saved..." I do have some idea what others believe grace is. Evangelicals say it is God's unmerited favor, or love. Catholics say it is God's unmerited power to empower us to become more like Christ. So an Evangelical interprets Paul's words:

By [God's undeserved love] you are saved, through faith.
​

But a Catholic interprets Paul's words:

By [God's undeserved power] you are saved, through faith.​

The former believes nothing we do saves us. The latter believes only what we do by God's power saves us. Me? I believe this:

By [some method unknown to me] you are saved, through faith.​

So you see my dilemma? I must put faith in the method God uses--his love to declare me saved, or his power to make me able to save myself, or something else. But how can I put faith in what I do not know? I don't believe I can. So I'd infer this is a more precise rendering of how to be saved:

By [some method unknown to me] you are saved, through faith [and through wisdom].
​

For if I don't discover the wisdom to know what grace is, I'll never know what to put my faith in!

So I'm curious to hear more about what you believe grace is and how you know your understanding is correct. You said God's grace is a gift, but Evangelicals and Catholics say the same, and you see how they have opposing ideas about what kind of gift it is.

So please help me unwrap the gift of grace, as you know it. When I remove the gift wrap, what do I see? God's love, God's power, or something else?

First let me say I admire your honesty, sincerity and demeanor in your posts. May the grace of our Lord be with you (whatever you think it may be). You're doing a great job!

I think everyone is in agreement that grace is an unmerited gift from God, which to me means an unearned and undeserved gift. But unearned and undeserved do not mean we don't have to do what Jesus says to do.

IMHO, some people, like the evangelicals, take the definition to the extreme saying faith ALONE saves, and whatever faith they have, comes as a gift directly from God, and is not a free will decision we make to get faith. Yet, the Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Getting faith is a decision, a choice we make to have or not have. Many hear the word, but choose to reject it for various reasons. Faith is a choice.

Others go to the opposite extreme saying it is our good works that save. Catholics fall into this category. You will often hear them say, "Old Joe was such a good guy. He is in heaven with Jesus now." Yet, Joe wasn't a follower of Jesus Christ. He didn't do the things Jesus told him to do.

Evangelicals will say that they cannot do a single thing to save themselves, yet if you ask any of them, they will tell you that they have to accept Jesus in their heart in order to be saved. Evangelical ministers preach this from their pulpits all the time. This seems like a big contradiction to me. Isn't accepting Jesus in your heart doing something? Doesn't it require a decision, not to mention a change?

Ask any saved evangelical if they have repented. They will all tell you yes.

So how does an evangelical, on one hand, accept Jesus in their heart, repent, and at the same time claim they have done nothing to save themselves? Do you see the dilemma here?

So for me, I have to ask the most important question. WDJS (What did Jesus say)? Here are Jesus' statements on the topic of salvation.

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish (Luke 13:3,5).

"Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven Matthew 10:32).

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Do we not choose to believe? Do we not make the decision to repent, to stop sinning and turn back to God? Does this not take effort on our parts? I know it did and still does for me. I have to work very hard at being good.

We heard in the news recently of the twenty-five Coptic Christians being beheaded because they refused to deny Jesus Christ. Do you think that required effort on their parts? I know if it had been me, it would have required every bit of effort I could muster.

Is it not the will of God that we believe in Jesus, that we repent, that we confess Jesus before men, that we get immersed, and that we live our lives faithfully? If we don't do the Father's will, can we expect to go to heaven?

Is not doing the Father's will WORK?

IMHO, we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part).

I'm saying we are saved by God's grace, His unearned, undeserved gift AND we are saved through our faith, which simply means our faithful obedience to His commands. Obeying His commands is not earning His gift. We obey Him not to earn His grace, but because we love Him.

Remember the words of Jesus:

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

 

[katiemygirl]

My favorite color has never changed, either--it's blue, and my favorite season has always been autumn. My tastes in food, music, movies and pets has changed, though. I currently own three dogs and like to take them for walks.



I find it interesting--though not fascinating--you find it odd. (I reserve the word fascinating for those opinions that surprise me.) Perhaps I'll better understand why you have this opinion if you answer a few more question about why you believe. If I find why you believe is a good reason why I should believe, then I'll no longer have any doubts! For I'll then believe as you do.

Ahhhh dogs! My favorite of all God's creatures. I have two females, a border collie and an Australian shepherd. Both extremely smart. Both great frisbee catchers. And yours?

Do you believe in God? What about His Son Jesus? Are you saved?