World population and the gumball example, by Roy Beck

[Estro Felino]

We may not ever have a world where individual nations are insular, pure, protected islands of themselves. Nationalism emphasizes protecting "cultural purity" and "sovereignty" to extreme proportions at times, and this can have the effect of actually destroying that which it purports to protect. All it really did was lead Europe to two horrific world wars in which they lost their sovereignty and found themselves as a virtual battleground between Russia and America. They were no longer in control of their own destiny, as their fate was tied to the whimsical decisions of politicians in Washington and/or Moscow. Nationalism is what led Europe to such a sorry fate, and yet, by abandoning nationalism and learning to cooperate with each other, Europe has flourished.

The two world wars was Europeans fighting one another. The birth of the European Union marked the passage from Nations' Nationalism to European Nationalism.
Europeans are aware of being one. One single civilization that is very peculiar, and is more and more isolated, because the US are very distant, geographically.

 

[Estro Felino]

What does that even mean? How would that translate into an actual policy?

Venezuelans who flee the current regime could migrate to Italy and Spain, instead of migrating the United States.
Since Italy and Spain are more compatible with their culture (I mean, it's the same).
And I can give you tens of similar examples.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Venezuelans who flee the current regime could migrate to Italy and Spain, instead of migrating the United States.
Since Italy and Spain are more compatible with their culture (I mean, it's the same).
And I can give you tens of similar examples.

With respect, that's not really an answer to either of my questions.

 

[Estro Felino]

With respect, that's not really an answer to either of my questions.

A policy like that would be absolutely doable in my country, because the juridical notion of ethno-state is not considered racist.
Since all laws about jus sanguinis revolve around the notion of Nation and Nation is a group of people who share the same blood, language, ancestry.

 

[Audie]

Roy Beck is literally a white Nationalist.

So call me a yellow nationalist.
Call Hong Kong a rich capitalist “nation”.
A mini USA.
BUT overfull, now.

Border control has been very strict for many years.
Residence/ work permit is difficult to get.

Perhaps the aware will see that this space is crammed to
bursting already, and there are far more eager to come here
than there are already here. We could not survive open
immigration.

Thinking any country can is insane.

The USA is overpopulated now, if “ sustainability”
and “ quality of life” are thought to have meaning.

i dont pretend to have a solution to poverty in, say,
Indonesia, Philippines, Cambodia.
The white savior industrial complex doesn’t either.

I’m thoroughly unimpressed by this self righteous posturing
and finger pointing of left at right, or vice versa, either one.

 

[Stevicus]

The two world wars was Europeans fighting one another. The birth of the European Union marked the passage from Nations' Nationalism to European Nationalism.
Europeans are aware of being one. One single civilization that is very peculiar, and is more and more isolated, because the US are very distant, geographically (and probably politically as well).
This isolation strengthens our nationalism, I guess.

I can see this, although I think the US is suffering from long-term strain of being in the role of "leader of the free world," which has included much of Europe. We're not really that distant from each other, at least not anymore.

I also don't think we need to isolate Europe either, since we can still maintain warm, friendly, and productive relations.

Although from the US point of view, we may have to ultimately discard our Eurocentric foreign policy. The world has changed significantly since the World Wars and even since the end of the Cold War.

 

[Audie]

A policy like that would be absolutely doable in my country, because the juridical notion of ethno-state is not considered racist.
Since all laws about jus sanguinis revolve around the notion of Nation and Nation is a group of people who share the same blood, language, ancestry.

I favor that I like going to Japan and seeing, well, Japanese
talking,acting, dressing like Japanese. Japanese signs and food.

For example.

 

[Estro Felino]

I can see this, although I think the US is suffering from long-term strain of being in the role of "leader of the free world," which has included much of Europe. We're not really that distant from each other, at least not anymore.

I also don't think we need to isolate Europe either, since we can still maintain warm, friendly, and productive relations.

Although from the US point of view, we may have to ultimately discard our Eurocentric foreign policy. The world has changed significantly since the World Wars and even since the end of the Cold War.

We do consider the United States the leaders of our world and those who represent our civilization.
But we would like them to look more like us. More focused on trade and less on warfare...

For instance the European Union is working on helping countries like Albania and Bosnia enter the European Union.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

A policy like that would be absolutely doable in my country, because the juridical notion of ethno-state is not considered racist.
Since all laws about jus sanguinis revolve around the notion of Nation and Nation is a group of people who share the same blood, language, ancestry.

Why can't you answer a straight-forward question?

What does "same culture" mean? Does being directly descended from someone with Italian citizenship guarantee that you're "culturally similar" enough to be allowed to live in Italy? How would you quantify that at a state level?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So call me a yellow nationalist.
Call Hong Kong a rich capitalist “nation”.
A mini USA.
BUT overfull, now.

Border control has been very strict for many years.
Residence/ work permit is difficult to get.

Perhaps the aware will see that this space is crammed to
bursting already, and there are far more eager to come here
than there are already here. We could not survive open
immigration.

Thinking any country can is insane.

The USA is overpopulated now, if “ sustainability”
and “ quality of life” are thought to have meaning.

i dont pretend to have a solution to poverty in, say,
Indonesia, Philippines, Cambodia.
The white savior industrial complex doesn’t either.

I’m thoroughly unimpressed by this self righteous posturing
and finger pointing of left at right, or vice versa, either one.

What does any of this have to do with what I've written?

 

[metis]

A team of scientists in different disciplines concluded in a joint study that any population beyond 3 billion would be detrimental to the planet in the long haul. Obviously, we've already passed that.

 

[Estro Felino]

@Stevicus
I would like the US to be more like Europe. A US for the American people first, with free healthcare and free university. That spends the money on bettering the American citizens' life and not on wars that have nothing to do with the US and have turned out to be totally useless. Like in the ME.
Just that
You may say I am a dreamer, but I am not the only one.

 

[Estro Felino]

A team of scientists in different disciplines concluded in a joint study that any population beyond 3 billion would be detrimental to the planet in the long haul. Obviously, we've already passed that.

The issue is not the current 8 billion. The issue is to create the conditions of social equality in all those countries.

 

[metis]

You may say I am a dreamer, but I am not the only one.

Love that song!!!

 

[metis]

The issue is not the current 8 billion. The issue is to create the conditions of social equality in all those countries.

It's really a combination of both, because when resources cannot supply the basic needs of so many, then "survival of the fittest" tends to more kick in, thus creating a dog-eat-dog environment. British anthropologist Desmond Morris back in the late 1960's predicted this would likely happen, namely that populations would grow beyond the basic food and water supplies that are the basis of life itself.

 

[Audie]

What does any of this have to do with what I've written?

You seem to think “ white nationalist” is something inherently bad.

I gave my pov as a evil yellow nationalist.

 

[Alien826]

Beck starts off with a straw man (that anyone thinks that immigration will solve world poverty) and convincingly destroys it.

He then goes on to suggest that we should help people in their own countries. I agree. I have a feeling the people in these countries would also prefer to be better off at home than to have to move to and adapt to a foreign country.

I also agree that his record shows that he couldn't care less about helping them, he just wants to stop them coming here (the USA).

I just want to add a couple of thoughts.

Unlimited immigration is not a good idea. It's not just a question of having enough land available to build houses for them, or even being able to generate enough jobs. Once immigration gets over a certain percentage of the population, a huge resistance sets in from the existing population. You get racism from people who never considered themselves to be racist. The immigrants, particularly if they don't speak English, tend to huddle together and that makes matters worse. They tend to be prepared to work for lower wages than the native population, and companies take advantage of this. There is a perception that "they're taking our jobs". And so on. None of this is particularly attractive from a moral viewpoint, but it exists and must be dealt with.

About helping people in their own countries, yes a good idea. But. Often the problem is not resources per se, but the local rulers grabbing most of them for themselves, often hand in glove with foreign companies. We can't just give them stuff while that still exists, and we know how well regime change has worked in the past. The populations of developed countries are typically not keen on giving away their things to foreign people and will tolerate just so much of it. Let's try anyway, but let's not fool ourselves that it's easy.

 

[Estro Felino]

About helping people in their own countries, yes a good idea. But. Often the problem is not resources per se, but the local rulers grabbing most of them for themselves, often hand in glove with foreign companies. We can't just give them stuff while that still exists, and we know how well regime change has worked in the past. The populations of developed countries are typically not keen on giving away their things to foreign people and will tolerate just so much of it. Let's try anyway, but let's not fool ourselves that it's easy.

Exactly. But it's mostly banking élites that bribe corrupt politicians who grab most of the riches for themselves, and give away the resources of their countries to foreigners.

Since I do know it's about a corrupt banking system that creates a yoke, I know that the issues can be solved in the long run.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Roy Beck is literally a white Nationalist.

He's a Nationalist, and some of the groups he mixes in have support from white Nationalists.
I'm unaware of he himself being a white Nationalist.

Feel free to link to further info, though.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Exactly. But it's mostly banking élites that bribe corrupt politicians who grab most of the riches for themselves, and give away the resources of their countries to foreigners.

Since I do know it's about a corrupt banking system that creates a yoke, I know that the issues can be solved in the long run.

This isn't the whole truth in my experience.