Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Well at least it's the end of divine consequences for using free will the wrong way...
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Would foreknowledge contradict free will?
- Thread starter Wandered Off
- Start date
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
You make the assumption the accident he was in was not involving your car......
Heneni
Miss Independent
+10 for wondered off! I believe in free will as well.
You posted many arguments about free will not contradicting foreknowledge and I agree, but this is just the sticky point......
We know we are going to die. We cant change the outcome, so do we still have free will? Of course we do...but how/why then are we all choosing to die?
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
I'm not 100% convinced of it, though. It could well be merely an illusion entirely due to our perspective.
Hmmm... I argue in this thread that foreknowledge itself does not contradict free will, but its existence is incompatible with free will, because foreknowlege necessitates a pre-existent outcome, and that hoses free will.
I'm just dense here... I said we don't have free will not to die, which means we aren't choosing to do it. Suicides would be an exception, but let's leave that aside for the time being.
Rolling_Stone
Well-Known Member
And so do I. This question does not touch upon my theology, any more than the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.
We know that a scrambled egg isn't going to unscramble itself, yet scientifically and mathematically there is what is called "time-reversal symmetry." We know it isn't going to happen, but it's possible. The principle is the same: it's possible (an act that's not foreknown), but it's not about to happen.
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I didn't go through and read all the posts of this thread, I am just answering the question.
If I were to have foreknowledge, then I would have the ability to change what would happen. Just as Nineveh changed and repented when Jonah told them they were going to be destroyed. They weren't destroyed, God had mercy on them.
If I were to have foreknowledge, then I would have the ability to change what would happen. Just as Nineveh changed and repented when Jonah told them they were going to be destroyed. They weren't destroyed, God had mercy on them.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Correct. I'd say then that it is possible to NOT die. Its not about to happen, but it is possible.
And because it is NOT set in stone, though from our experience it seems to be, free will still reigns.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Well, then what you had isn't really foreknowledge. It's "forwhatiffing"... ($5 for enriching the English language please). If it doesn't happen, what you had wasn't knowledge.
Rolling_Stone
Well-Known Member
Bingo. You got it.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Not necessarily. Knowing something is going to happen does not have to mean that you can stop it. Youd need the power to stop it.
And here is GOD, the one with the power, stopping it.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Nor mine, but I enjoy the discussion.
Then likewise free will is possible, but it's not about to happen.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Someone has to excercise their free will to scramble the eggs. Unless it happens, the possibility for them to unscrable does not exist. The ability for them to unscramble exist, whether someone scrambles the eggs or not.
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Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
*WO's head implodes*
If I found out I was going to die in a car accident on a certain day, then I could just decide not to drive or ride in the car. I know that you would say that I would have no choice but to get into that car, because it was predestined, but I don't believe that.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
But if you can avoid it, then what you "found out" is not the future, only a hypothetical scenario. Kind of like this whole thread, no?
But if you can avoid it, then what you "found out" is not the future, only a hypothetical scenario. Kind of like this whole thread, no?
In that case, everything is a hypothetical scenario.
The future hasn't happened yet. If I could see into the future, then it couldn't possibly be anything but a hypothetical scenario since I can change it.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Exactly! It's only when you can't change the future that free will leaves the building. For that to happen, the future would have to be foreknown with certainty, and not as a hypothetical.In that case, everything is a hypothetical scenario.
Heneni
Miss Independent
:cover: can I change the fact that the sun is going to come up tomorrow? And if I cant does that mean free will has left the building?
I think that POWER has a lot to do with what will and wont happen. Seems like free will, our free will, is free within the confines of a certain set of unchangeables. Free will has boundaries.
Depending on how much power you have, you have more or less free will. For example if someone is possessed by a demon, they have little power to excercise their free will. If they regain power, they have more freedom to excercise free will.
Humans have free will, but it is limited to using it here on this planet. Even thought there are many things that we can choose, there are many more things that we cant choose, options not available to us, because we have not recieved the power to make those choices. Or am I oversimplifying, or maybe complicating things?
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Forgive me, but I fail to see what any of the points you raise have to do with the question of whether or not foreknowledge negates free will. :sorry1: