Would foreknowledge contradict free will?

[Wandered Off]

:cover: can I change the fact that the sun is going to come up tomorrow? And if I cant does that mean free will has left the building?

For me, free will is a concept that applies only to decisions I can personally affect. Foreknowledge isn't what inhibits my will to impact the sun's rise. That's just plain old physical reality.

Free will in the context I mean has nothing to do with the impossible. I can't complain about lack of free will because I am unable to sprout wings or stop the sunrise. Those are off the table for reasons entirely outside this discussion.

 

[AK4]

:cover: can I change the fact that the sun is going to come up tomorrow? And if I cant does that mean free will has left the building?

I think that POWER has a lot to do with what will and wont happen. Seems like free will, our free will, is free within the confines of a certain set of unchangeables. Free will has boundaries.

Depending on how much power you have, you have more or less free will. For example if someone is possessed by a demon, they have little power to excercise their free will. If they regain power, they have more freedom to excercise free will.

Humans have free will, but it is limited to using it here on this planet. Even thought there are many things that we can choose, there are many more things that we cant choose, options not available to us, because we have not recieved the power to make those choices. Or am I oversimplifying, or maybe complicating things?

Free will has boundaries? That like saying "Free food everybody, but you cant have any turkey and mash potatoes. Those are off limits"

Now does that make sense to you?

You sound like those people who be saying you can have a FREE trial of their product, but all you have to do is pay for shipping and handling.

Come on now think:slap:

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Of course. Don't we always have a choice? But then if you end up changing your future, it wasn't really your future to begin with. I therefore conclude that foreknowledge in the context of what you're saying to be impossible.

 

[AK4]

Of course. Don't we always have a choice? But then if you end up changing your future, it wasn't really your future to begin with. I therefore conclude that foreknowledge in the context of what you're saying to be impossible.

So then you deny God and call him a liar when he says
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Do you catch that He knows the END from the START.

 

[Storm]

So then you deny God and call him a liar when he says
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Do you catch that He knows the END from the START.

If one doesn't believe in your God, calling Him a liar is rather nonsensical. Further, one need not deny God to deny your scripture.

 

[Wandered Off]

So then you deny God and call him a liar when he says...

Disbelieving the Bible is not the same as calling God a liar for many of us.

 

[AK4]

If one doesn't believe in your God, calling Him a liar is rather nonsensical. Further, one need not deny God to deny your scripture.

Okay since you dont believe in God, then

if you live in the US, you have freedom of speech, but go up to anyone and tell them your going to kill them and watch what happen.

Where the freedom of speech

 

[Storm]

Okay since you dont believe in God, then

Where did you get the idea I don't believe in God?

if you live in the US, you have freedom of speech, but go up to anyone and tell them your going to kill them and watch what happen.

Where the freedom of speech

That has what to do with the topic?

 

[Heneni]

What is impossible? If we get the answer to that...would it be a fact or a theory? Nothing is impossible. Is that a fact...or is that a theory?

But lets for argument sake say that there certainly is a LOT of things humans are not able to decide upon. The only thing that makes it impossible for us to stop the sun shining, is our lack of knowledge. Or our lack of power.

Free will is limited to that which we have the power to decide over, thats all i wanted to say really. We cannot will that the sun should not rise, becasue we dont have the power to execute our choice.

There is no certainty whether the sun will come up tomorrow either. I dont think anything is set in stone, unless god sets it in stone.

If you had faith like a mustard seed you could say to this mountain...jump into the sea. To will the mountain to jump into the sea is one thing, but to have the power to get it to do it...is another.

God knows only the future that he causes. OR....god started you, then finished you and then got you started...that way he knows ALL of the future, including the choices that you will make, because you have made them before.

So how much power do humans have over the future?

But it seems that im talking over people's heads...so let me light a candle :candle:

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Free will has boundaries? That like saying "Free food everybody, but you cant have any turkey and mash potatoes. Those are off limits"

Now does that make sense to you?

It makes perfect sense. :angel2:

 

[Wandered Off]

Free will has boundaries? That like saying "Free food everybody, but you cant have any turkey and mash potatoes. Those are off limits"

Now does that make sense to you?

Yeah, that sounds like, "You may eat of any tree but this one, Adam..."

 

[Heneni]

Adam had a lot of power while he excercised his will to obey god. But when he used his free will to choose contrary to what god suggested he lost power.

When he used his free will to choose the wrong thing...He lost life..he would die...and he had NO power to stop dying.

So power comes by obeying rather than subduing, conquering and overtaking. Which is probably what satan tried to do...get the power by using his free will to turn against god.

Which also explains why jesus had the power to save, he obeyed god even unto death. He said NOT MY will be done but his fathers. If he didnt do that, he would have had NO power to rise from the dead. He had power to rise from the dead because he he used his free will to choose what his father wanted. Adam instead, used his free will to choose contrary to god's suggestion, and lost power.


No wonder jesus said, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you could move mountains. Nothing WILL be impossible if we obeyed god fully. Because an immense amount of power is given to those that obey fully. Those who use their free will to choose what god suggests will be able to do the 'impossible'.

God knew that adam would die if he ate. He still gave him the authority to choose. Free will is like being given authority. With authority comes power. If we choose right, gods power backs up our choices. If we choose wrong, the power of darkness makes our choices come to pass.

Sin is said to have power over us.

Anyway...we know that when we make a choice according to gods will it WILL happen. So in that sense we have foreknowledge of the fact that it will happen, but we also had the choice to go with what god suggests or not. So the one does not contadict the other.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It is not that difficult. To know the future does not mean you do not have free will. You do have free will, God just knows the outcome ahead of time.

Think of it like playing a video of a soccer game. During the game, each player controlled the destiny of the game. Later on while watching the video, it would be easy to predict the outcome of the game.

God is not controlled by time or anything else. He knows how it all will end ahead of time. Otherwise, how could prophecy be possible?

Actually prophecy is possible for others than God, but that is another subject for another thread.

 

[Willamena]

Free will is limited to that which we have the power to decide over, thats all i wanted to say really. We cannot will that the sun should not rise, becasue we dont have the power to execute our choice.

Additionally, it's not "our choice" then. Free will isn't limited in this example, it is entirely lacking from the picture.

 

[Willamena]

It is not that difficult. To know the future does not mean you do not have free will. You do have free will, God just knows the outcome ahead of time.

What is an outcome? How does it differ from "the outcome"?

 

[Heneni]

Additionally, it's not "our choice" then. Free will isn't limited in this example, it is entirely lacking from the picture.

Let me give you another picuture then...

My choice to not be intoxicated by air polution is entirely limited and lacking too.I have no choice but to go outside and breathe. If i decided i wanted to move somewhere where there is less air pollution, i could make that choice and set stuff in motion to get away. A few years later the pollution at my new location could be just as bad. If however, I had the power to elimate air pollution entirely, i would say that my choice to do so, would be limited by the amount of power I have to accomplish it.

 

[Willamena]

Let me give you another picuture then...

My choice to not be intoxicated by air polution is entirely limited and lacking too. I have no choice but to go outside and breathe.

The "choice to not" (something that exists) is not a choice. A "no choice" cannot affect (bring into being) something. This is the same picture, just worded awkwardly to try to include us --but any choice of ours is lacking from this picture, hence free will is lacking.

If i decided i wanted to move somewhere where there is less air pollution, i could make that choice and set stuff in motion to get away. A few years later the pollution at my new location could be just as bad.

Now our choices enter the picture --the choice to go outside, the choice to move to another place. These can have an affect on us. These decisions are affected by the intoxication and enacted by us; they have no effect on it. That is an exercise of free will (as I understand it).

If however, I had the power to elimate air pollution entirely, i would say that my choice to do so, would be limited by the amount of power I have to accomplish it.

Just so. But free will is not in the choice to act, but in the enaction (the decision fulfilled).

 

[Heneni]

But free will is not in the choice to act, but in the enaction (the decision fulfilled).

I think free will to make a choice and the freedom to act on that choice is entirely two different things.

There could be a fire in my house. I choose to leave, and act to get out, but a beam falls infront of me and stops me from exiting the house. My descision was not fullfilled but I did act on my choice.

 

[Wandered Off]

It is not that difficult. To know the future does not mean you do not have free will. You do have free will, God just knows the outcome ahead of time.

Being a bit dense, I find it difficult to reconcile being incapable of acting in any way other than the pre-existing script says to free will.

 

[michel]

Way out left, man, very very far left.

In brief, choice is the variable that unifies all predicted futures. God knows all the possibilities and outcomes of those possibilities, but not what choice you will make to arrive @ them.

It's like a junction which forks out into many roads and paths: GOD knows where all roads lead but not which one you'll take.

Absolutely! And the wonder of it is that foreknowledge would not invalidate free will - for it is up to us to chose, at each "crossroads" which avenue we can take.

I do believe in the ability to forecast the future; I guess in much the same way as do weather forecasters.........

Palmistry (non clairvoyant) allows one to assess a person's character as it has been, and as the present trend is; it is therefore reasonable to suggest a likely future. Having said that, (if you are prepared to believe in palmistry), the future may be made to change by a change of direction by the person whose future has been predicted.

I always quote a case which my mother told me of (and I trust her - obviously); just after the war, she read the hands of one of her friends. She told the friend that she could see a change of direction which would be dangerous; she did not tell her friend so, but my mother saw an abrupt end to the friend's life in the near future.

She met her friend a year later, and was unsurprised to hear that the friend had been considering being an air hostess; she had changed her mind, and had "gone a different way" (let's face it, here in England, after the war, employment was difficult to find). As it happens, the airline that the friend had applied to had suffered a crash, from which there were no survivors.

In no way is that proof, but maybe more than just pure coincidence? - I learned from my mother, and I have seen that same (but in totally different examples) happen with friends of mine, whose palms I used to look at.