crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
Foreknowledge is impossible in a chaotic world.
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Would foreknowledge contradict free will?
- Thread starter Wandered Off
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Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
It is interesting how we try and wrap our minds around this supposed god. We ponder why such a god would even bring into existence anything if it already knows and is responsible for the outcome unless we realize that such a god does not exist.
Idiolatry
Antagonist
Well, in theory, if God were to eliminate a possible choice completely, would that remove, partially, free will? How would I visit a place if it's been wiped out of existence?He eliminated an option. Even so, you still have the choice to go or not.
In Genesis, God told Adam (Eve was not created yet) not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge [of good and evil], totally forbade it, and lied that Adam would die if he ate of it, obviously which he didn't.
Would this be a violation of free will? In most arguments, we have a choice. It doesn't seem Adam had a choice in this matter. Unless, you assume, God put the tree there as temptation--a choice to listen to God and not eat of it, or eat the fruit. But, that'd bring up another huge off-topic debate.
Foreknowledge does not contradict free will. Free will is one's ability to make an intellegent decision based on choices that are influenced by our emotions; thoughts; environment; mental data base; thought process and exposure. However, foreknowledge is the divine insight of knowing one's free will or choice of decision/s in a future tense, but revealing them in the present tense. The idea of speaking about one's choices a head of time may appear to be contradictory, but without divine intervention altering free will the act of speaking a head of time is righteous, even if the consequences of a future choice is stated in a present tense. This only denotes a privileged and unique characteristic of a higher power ability not contradiction of free will.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
If you can't alter your destiny from what is foreknown, this ability is an illusion. You cannot make any choice other than what is known, which is not free agency. Since you don't know the outcome, though, it feels like free will.
How does it do that?
logician
Well-Known Member
Can you predict with certainty what will happen to you in the next 5 minutes?
Multiply this uncertainty to an infinite degree, and that's what a supposed god faces in predicting the future.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Infinity multiplied by infinity is still infinity. Uncertainty exists in this moment every bit as much as in an infinite number of moments.
Uncertainty, being one of the things-we-know, is also known by an omniscient "God". No?
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logician
Well-Known Member
The last statement makes no sense.
What about the first one?
idea
Question Everything
Knowing something and causing it are 2 different things. The future can be set in stone and we can still have free will. What matters is not "if" it is set in stone, but "who" sets it in stone. If we set our own future in stone, then we have free will.
I think the future is set in stone, that God knows everything. I also think we have free will because we set our own future in stone, not God. We are here proving to ourself who we are, not proving anything to God.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Absolutely. I must've foreknown your objection and stuck this in the OP:
WO said:
If it's already 'in stone' before you exist, then you didn't set it there.idea said:
logician
Well-Known Member
The future cannot be set in stone, because we live in a chaotic universe.
An omniscient god does not seem to be present in fact, cannot exist by definition.
AK4
Well-Known Member
What? How can we set our future in stone? Who numbers our steps?
Pr 16:9 -A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
James 4:13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. 17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins
Where is your free will here? Can you free will yourself out of death? Try setting that in stone.
idea
Question Everything
We are eternal, and have always existed. There is no "before you exist".
The future is set in stone, but we are the ones who set our own future in stone. (Granted God opens up some possibilities that without Him we would not have, but we are the ones who choose which road to travel)
We would have no free will if we were created (if God created us, everything about us could be traced back to Him - the only way to have free will is if part of us is independent - an independent will requires part of us to be independent - and part of us is independent)
From another thread:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/64594-panspermia-bible.html
a better thread:
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=38508&hl=pre-existence+no+beginning
interesting link
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/5_creator.html
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for."
Another interesting link
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexico...=G166&t=KJV
eternal - as in "eternal life" - part of definition is "no beginning" ie, we cannot have "eternal life" if we had a beginning...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A few scripts on the subject...
Our birth was not our beginning…
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
We existed before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Job 38: 4 Where wast thou…
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
We are sons and daughters of God –
Psa 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
we were there – we shouted for joy.
Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
“return” means coming to a state that we have previously been to – not “come” as if it were our first experience, but “return”
Zech 12:1 …the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
He “formed” our spirit before He placed us here on Earth. We call him our “Heavenly” Father because He is literally the father of our spirit… spirit not created from nothingness, formed out of intelligences that God found Himself surrounded by.
There was a war in heaven in which Satan sought to take away our free agency. 1/3 of the formed spirits followed Satan and became fallen angels, never to receive a body. The other 2/3 – us – chose to come here. We are here because we chose to come here.
Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Luke 10: 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
More details on this war..
Moses 4: 1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
We chose to come to Earth…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The only script I have seen that people use to say God created everything is:
John 1:
1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
But this does not say God and Jesus were alone, nor does it say they created everything -
“That was made” – IF it was made, He made it. However, some things are not made…
also made = formed, organized... not "formed out of nothing"... formed, what already exists.
3 All things were organized by him; and without him was not any thing organized that was organized.
read this thread:
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=38508&hl=pre-existence+no+beginning
it has arguments for and against eternal (no beginning) nature of mankind.
Having no beginning is the only thing that gives us free will (and the only thing that excuses God from creating evil... either God created everything - including evil, and we have no free will... or God "formed" rather than "created from nothing" in which case God did not create everything, did not create evil, and we have free will)
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idea
Question Everything
we have the choice "not to do it".... also, our will is different than the Lord's will. We have our own will.
15 ..., choose you this day whom ye will serve
(Old Testament | Joshua24:15)
We can "choose" we have a choice to be directed or not.
Gen. 2:16 Of every tree ... thou mayest freely eat
- they had a choice
Deut. 11:27 blessing, if ye obey
we choose to obey or not
Deut. 30:19 therefore choose life
Josh. 24:15 choose ... whom ye will serve
1 Kgs. 18:21 if the Lord be God, follow him
Prov. 1:29 did not choose the fear of the Lord
we choose who to follow
Matt. 26:39 not as I will, but as thou wilt
John 5:30 I seek not mine own will
we have our own will.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(New Testament | James2:20)
Yes, Jesus opens up the possibility of life to us, we choose to follow or not though. We choose life, or we choose death. We choose these things.
19I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life...
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy30:19)
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idea
Question Everything
Just one more note – I’m not saying that everyone is free, just saying that it is possible for anyone to become free if they work towards it.
Freedom isn’t free.
If you want to be “free” to run 5 miles without getting tired, you have to exercise, and work up to that freedom. If you want the freedom knowledge brings, you have to sit down and study. If you want the freedom of thinking for yourself, you have to learn how to think.
So far as you follow Satan, you will lose your free will. Satan imprisons people.
God sets them free.
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(New Testament | John8:32)
be free everyone!
Freedom isn’t free.
If you want to be “free” to run 5 miles without getting tired, you have to exercise, and work up to that freedom. If you want the freedom knowledge brings, you have to sit down and study. If you want the freedom of thinking for yourself, you have to learn how to think.
So far as you follow Satan, you will lose your free will. Satan imprisons people.
God sets them free.
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(New Testament | John8:32)
be free everyone!
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
Then I will rephrase: If an outcome is already 'in stone' before you actually take an action, then you didn't set it there. If a future exists "in stone" before you take action, then you can act only according to that script, which is not free will - irrespective of how long you existed.
That's a non-sequitur. Freedom of will is determined by the existence or lack of choice, and origin does not impact this.