Would Jesus put up with the very wealthy and very poor?

[oldbadger]

Jesus......... on the Mount.

5: 3- 12 (KJV)
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

 

[blü 2]

You've lost me!
Betty....? Elizabeth?

Yep.

 

[Sheldon]

A small disorganized political group? The entire world is blatantly ruled by a current liberal establishment including America, Europe etc.

Wow, I hope Putin and the Chinese don't get wind of this.

Seriously that is the stupidest piece of paranoia I've ever heard.

 

[Sheldon]

They aren't real liberals. Just posing as them.

To be clear, do you hate fake liberals as well, or just real liberals?

Now, do you think these fake liberals pursue a real liberal agenda? What's their motivation to pursue a liberal agenda if they're fake liberals btw?

 

[oldbadger]

Wow, I hope Putin and the Chinese don't get wind of this.

Seriously that is the stupidest piece of paranoia I've ever heard.

Hi.....

What has amazed me on this thread is how some Christians have reacted to the idea that Jesus was dedicated to provision for the weak, disabled and poor. One of two have completely forgotten that this thread is about what Jesus said and did, and have launched in to brainless, bigoted political rants.

That has told me quite a lot........

 

[oldbadger]

Jesus the Capitalist or Jesus the Social provider?

Jesus took some fishes, and he made thousands of them! Some Christians (in the past) have pointed to this action and declared, 'You see?' Capitalism!
Oh Dear! Jesus did take some fishes, made thousands....he did. A then he gave them to hungry folks...... FOR NOTHING!

Mark {6:38} {6:40} And they sat down in ranks, by hundreds, and by fifties. {6:41} And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves, and gave [them] to his disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all. {6:42} And they did all eat, and were filled.

 

[metis]

Was it even government controlled? Other than not cutting the corners of your field, I don't recall any mandates other than "don't forget to help"

Actually there was also the mandate of tithing, and this was required by Jewish Law. This money went to a variety of programs at the Temple and with the community as a whole, including helping the poor, widows, etc.

At no time does it appear that Jesus stated or implied that this was not to be followed, and why would he as over and over again he sides with helping the poor, and this includes tithing [leaving 10% in the fields was part of that] and charity [tzedakah].

In the Parable of the Widow's Mite, Jesus says that she went beyond that which was required, which was a reference to the tithing + tzedakah.

Hope ya had a great weekend.

 

[metis]

Jesus the Capitalist or Jesus the Social provider?

More emphasis on the latter.

The Catholic Church did not buy into laissez-faire style capitalism because there were no mandated safety nets, which led to immense suffering amongst "the masses". It wasn't until some of these programs got implimented that the Church finally accepted capitalism, but not without conditions.

 

[oldbadger]

Actually there was also the mandate of tithing, and this was required by Jewish Law. This money went to a variety of programs at the Temple and with the community as a whole, including helping the poor, widows, etc.

At no time does it appear that Jesus stated or implied that this was not to be followed,..............

Absolutely!
Jesus certainly did support the paying of fair taxes for proper services. The problem was that the whole system was a corrupted mess. In this verse Jesus reminds the Priesthood pof its duties about paying taxes.
Matthew {23:23} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise
and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 

[metis]

Absolutely!
Jesus certainly did support the paying of fair taxes for proper services. The problem was that the whole system was a corrupted mess. In this verse Jesus reminds the Priesthood pof its duties about paying taxes.
Matthew {23:23} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise
and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Exactly, and what Jesus condemned against many Pharisees is still a problem today within all faiths, namely many talk-the-talk but don't walk-the-walk. We all tend to do that at times, but there are some who do it regularly.

 

[Kenny]

You need to be your own investigator.
Brother James wasn't even there, listening to his brother.

............. or did you think that was the disciple?

Mmmmm... half-brother of Jesus? He was there alright! Probably heard Jesus's rant a thousand times... and then... in the resurrection... epiphany!

The money changer (and sacrifice sales) mayhem was undertaken because it was a totally corrupt rip-off.

Yes... a money-maker for sure.

The poor laws were laws. It wasn't about 'don't forget....' it was about 'you shall do this....'

Yes... but what percentage? how much? You seem to skirt the issue.

Yes. You haven't mentioned Jesus once so far in this post.

I'm not sure how this relates. Jesus said help the poor... but he didn't help all the poor and not even always... remember the alabaster box?

What Race Theory do you want to approach? Jesus was a Middle Eastern Jew.... what do you think he would say about it?

That race is skin deep.

You cannot help it, it seems. At the very idea of a more level system of 'division of wealth' you click in to politics. This seems to me like 'politics today, Jesus tomorrow'.

Not really. Why do you think I'm doing that? I haven't mentioned politics but you seem to want to direct it that way?

Would you like to refer to the parable of the talents for division of wealth?

EDIT: Matthew {23:25} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Oh My Goodness. The Leaders (the government) were ripping off the peasant classes in so many ways. The Baptist and Jesus were acting against all of that. And you want a quote showing where Jesus gave speech about 'Government policies'? It was a Theocracy gone corrupt.

I don't think I have disagreed with this assessment. Relevance?

Two coats was the symbol used for wealth, Ken.

You seem to body-swerve to left and right to avoid or 'put-by' what Jesus said and did.
Look, if you think that Jesus was any kind of right-wing Capitalist then I cannot help you with that.

:LOL... not really. You want to label me that way but, as I have mentioned multiple times, helping the poor is part of our creed. Your memory.... your age?

 

[Kenny]

This is how he spoke about 'government'.

Matthew {23:25} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

And THAT is why we shouldn't use government for distribution of help.

 

[Kenny]

Actually there was also the mandate of tithing, and this was required by Jewish Law. This money went to a variety of programs at the Temple and with the community as a whole, including helping the poor, widows, etc.

At no time does it appear that Jesus stated or implied that this was not to be followed, and why would he as over and over again he sides with helping the poor, and this includes tithing [leaving 10% in the fields was part of that] and charity [tzedakah].

In the Parable of the Widow's Mite, Jesus says that she went beyond that which was required, which was a reference to the tithing + tzedakah.

Hope ya had a great weekend.

Had a great weekend, Metis. Hope yours was Spirit filled!

Wouldn't it be great if the government simply lived off of the tithe of our income?

I hope I haven't come across as "not" helping the poor. It just seems like people are saying "If you are rich, you are evil"... equating having money as being covetous et al.

Can that happen? for sure... but you don't use a broad brush for that. IMO

VERY wealth RG LeTourneau lived off of 10% of his income and gave 90% away but kept getting richer.

Seems like Malachi "open windows of Heaven" had something to do with it.

I think someone who is covetous (even if you are poor) would say "He should live with even less and give it to us or them".

 

[metis]

Had a great weekend, Metis. Hope yours was Spirit filled!

I did, but not wirhout some controversy as our priest got "political" on a partisan basis, although he at least somewhat disguised it. I asked him to call me, which he did, and we had a friendly but tense discussion. Generally, we were in agreement, but I did make it clear that if one gets into politics at mass, prepare for some blowback and/or some leaving as I know already a couple did so as to attend another parish. Fortunately, our priest and I do get along well, and I have complimented him at times in the past, thus he knows I wasn't trying to dump hot coals on his head-- I'll save those for you.

Wouldn't it be great if the government simply lived off of the tithe of our income?

Ya, but that would be impossible as our entire infrastructure is very different that what was found in eretz Israel 2000 years ago. For some reason, donkeys didn't tend to tear up the highways as much as heavy trucks tear up ours, plus their skyscapers weren't quite as high.

Can that happen? for sure... but you don't use a broad brush for that. IMO

See, I have at least one redeeming value!

Nice to talk with you again, my friend.

 

[oldbadger]

Mmmmm... half-brother of Jesus? He was there alright! Probably heard Jesus's rant a thousand times... and then... in the resurrection... epiphany!

Yes... a money-maker for sure.

Yes... but what percentage? how much? You seem to skirt the issue.

I'm not sure how this relates. Jesus said help the poor... but he didn't help all the poor and not even always... remember the alabaster box?

That race is skin deep.

Not really. Why do you think I'm doing that? I haven't mentioned politics but you seem to want to direct it that way?

Would you like to refer to the parable of the talents for division of wealth?

I don't think I have disagreed with this assessment. Relevance?

:LOL... not really. You want to label me that way but, as I have mentioned multiple times, helping the poor is part of our creed. Your memory.... your age?

All the above........ Are you trying to 'spin' that Jesus was some kind of Middle Class Capitalist?

Jesus was a working class social warrior, mate.

 

[oldbadger]

And THAT is why we shouldn't use government for distribution of help.

........... your government, you mean?

 

[oldbadger]

I hope I haven't come across as "not" helping the poor.

You certainly don't seem to have shown any support for a more financially balanced society.
Your charity is nice, but proper distribution of funds through reasonable levees and taxation is needed.
What do you think Jesus would say?

It just seems like people are saying "If you are rich, you are evil"... equating having money as being covetous et al..

That's what it seems to you.
What would Jesus say about unreasonable or extreme wealth when unreasonable or extreme poverty exists?

What did Jesus say about financial fatness getting in to heaven?
Do you know those verses, or have you overlooked them?

 

[Kenny]

All the above........ Are you trying to 'spin' that Jesus was some kind of Middle Class Capitalist?

Jesus was a working class social warrior, mate.

Not spinning anything... trying to make sense of exactly what you are trying to say.

Is there a reason why you ignored the parable of the talents? Or is it because it just doesn't fit your paradigm.

I take the word as a whole and not just pick and choose.

 

[Kenny]

........... your government, you mean?

Haven't found an honest one yet.

 

[Kenny]

You certainly don't seem to have shown any support for a more financially balanced society.
Your charity is nice, but proper distribution of funds through reasonable levees and taxation is needed.

What do you think Jesus would say?

Exactly the same thing Jesus said in his time:

15 And he said unto them,Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's* life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth. 16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying,The ground of a certain richman brought forth plentifully: 17 And he thought within himself, saying, Whatshall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? 18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. 20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

and again:

19 There was a certain rich man,which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate,full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham'sbosom: the rich man also* died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up hiseyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and sendLazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

but not to forget:

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Just out of curiosity... what are you doing to help the poor?

That's what it seems to you.
What would Jesus say about unreasonable or extreme wealth when unreasonable or extreme poverty exists?

What did Jesus say about financial fatness getting in to heaven?
Do you know those verses, or have you overlooked them?

Not at all... I've look at them all. Ultimately, it appears to me that it is a matter of the heart of the personal individual and not the heart of the government.

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

An unreasonably rich man who is unreasonably generous to the poor, is unreasonably blessed by God.