Would Jesus put up with the very wealthy and very poor?

[firedragon]

Exactly..... We can only refer to the gospels for info about what Jesus said or did. And they show that Jesus was set against the greedy rich corrupted priesthood and all of the Levite clan. Of course there were good people within those groups as well.

There are many verses which show that Jesus was dead set against hidden wealth, evasion and avoidance of taxation, the lot.

But some Christians seem not to support his viewpoints?

Oh I see. I have been asking you so many times to clarify what you are saying. You never listen. Old people never listen to what young people say. Thats the problem.

I understood you to say the absolute opposite. So its my bad.

I think I agree with you.

 

[Kenny]

It's interesting how Jesus spoke of a Levite and a Priest caring nothing for a disabled man. The Levites were the Upper Class and there was no middle class.

Of course the Samaritan had funds! But he was an outsider who did not worship at that Temple.

The message is clear......... Wealth was not supporting the disabled, and wealth absolutely certainly should, Ken.

ABSOLUTELY! I agree wholeheartedly. And, of course, you noticed that issue was love. "caring nothing for the disabled man"

I would probably venture to say that the issue wasn't "how much money" the person had because in any society there is always a "middle class"--just in different quantities.

Have you noticed that in the law there wasn't a position of "exacting by force" any amount? But it should be done?

I'm in the "middle class" and always make sure we consider those in need.

 

[Kenny]

But some Christians seem not to support his viewpoints?

Really? How so?

 

[Kenny]

And that will do very nicely........... Unreasonable wealth giving half to the unreasonably poor.
half of my goods I give to the poor; and in addition to that he promised to give restitution to every person that he had scammed.

Now let the wealthy do that and we might end the dreadful statistics of rich and poor around the world.

That's all and good...

Did you notice that he didn't say "sell all you have" like he did to someone else? Why do you think?

What if he was, in modern terms and in comparison a person of worth of 10 million. After giving half, and restitution, let's say he still had 3 million. Would you hold it against him because he was still rich?

Why do you think Jesus did not demand that they sell the alabaster box and give it to the poor?

I'm sure you help the poor... Jesus did too and he was probably considered middle class. (Can't verify that he was middle class, so it is IMO)

Do you think everyone should help?

What, in your view, is the tipping point of unreasonably rich? Or is the issue a love issue where you are considering the poor?

 

[blü 2]

Hi blü....... (where did you get that 'u' from? )

Es ist eine lange Geschichte ... warum willst du das wissen?

That first verse shows that Jesus didn't want to bully a woman (Magdalene maybe?) for spending upon him, but he did want to show his feelings for the poor by mentioning the first words of a Poor Law:-
Deuteronomy {15:11} For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
(Powerful words!)

Yup.

 

[oldbadger]

ABSOLUTELY! I agree wholeheartedly. And, of course, you noticed that issue was love. "caring nothing for the disabled man"

I would probably venture to say that the issue wasn't "how much money" the person had because in any society there is always a "middle class"--just in different quantities.

The only way one can give love is by actions. Jesus was all about actions.

And 'No', Ken.... there was no middle class in early 1st century Palestine. There was the Upper class which included all Levites, succussful merchants and very successful brigands. King Herod had been a very successful brigand. The peasant classes featured the beggars, Labourers, Hauliers, Nagars (known to you as the tectons, I guess), Farmers........ in that order.

Have you noticed that in the law there wasn't a position of "exacting by force" any amount? But it should be done?

You've read about Saul/Paul? What do you think he was contracted by the Temple authorities to do? Many Northern Jews had deserted Temple feasts and funds were suffering. THat was the only reason Saul would have been sent out.

Ken you love paying taxes. All those lovely services you get. So pay some more for the needs of the poor, is my suggestion.

I'm in the "middle class" and always make sure we consider those in need.

Well then, you'll probably support free (or subsidised) education, healthcare, housing, provision etc for the needy.

I don't have a class any more. I'm free of all that. The whole system made me feel sick.

 

[oldbadger]

Really? How so?

Well they don't live them.......
That doesn't worry me because we Deists are like pagans, our local Lord is Mother Nature, so I don't care if naughty Christians go to the Saturday Satanist's club (anyway, it was boring).

But where Christians live the 'Church on Sundays-Mammon on Mondays' routine then they might as well stop the hypocrisy....kind of thing. Damn....that's a thread!

 

[oldbadger]

That's all and good...

Did you notice that he didn't say "sell all you have" like he did to someone else? Why do you think?

What if he was, in modern terms and in comparison a person of worth of 10 million. After giving half, and restitution, let's say he still had 3 million. Would you hold it against him because he was still rich?

Why do you think Jesus did not demand that they sell the alabaster box and give it to the poor?

I'm sure you help the poor... Jesus did too and he was probably considered middle class. (Can't verify that he was middle class, so it is IMO)

Do you think everyone should help?

What, in your view, is the tipping point of unreasonably rich? Or is the issue a love issue where you are considering the poor?

This is all easy! Let us all pay taxes.
These taxes rise according to income, wealth at death, purchase values, Interest returns, Capital Gains etc etc.
Now all those with huge wealth will pay taxes more fitting with their abilities to pay. But so many billionaires hide their money away. We all disliked Silas Marner the miser so let's support investigators in catchi9ng Silas Marner Billionaires.

And No, Jesus wasn't middle class........ he didn't have that kind of wealth, position or power. Not even the Land Holders were Mid class. Nobody owned Land, Ken but you and I, we can keep our little freeholds. Our little home is the least valuable freehold prop on the entire North Kent Coastline.... for sure. Our Lounge is 12' x 7'.... we're very happy......

 

[oldbadger]

Es ist eine lange Geschichte ... warum willst du das wissen?
Yup.

Thank God (sorry!) for Google!
You a Flatlander? Windmills, canals, dykes and inland seas?
Probably the Flemish half?

I'm guessing now.

 

[blü 2]

Thank God (sorry!) for Google!
You a Flatlander? Windmills, canals, dykes and inland seas?
Probably the Flemish half?

I'm guessing now.

Nah, on my father's side Highlander, on my mother's side Mancunian, and New England for much of the rest. (I told you it was a long story.)

 

[Kenny]

The only way one can give love is by actions. Jesus was all about actions.

And 'No', Ken.... there was no middle class in early 1st century Palestine. There was the Upper class which included all Levites, succussful merchants and very successful brigands. King Herod had been a very successful brigand. The peasant classes featured the beggars, Labourers, Hauliers, Nagars (known to you as the tectons, I guess), Farmers........ in that order.

Yes... love is about actions. As James said, "faith without works is dead".

But, I think you can only offer an opinion on the middle class. Maybe fishermen were middle class, carpenters, and even some farmers... who knows...

I've been in the poor countries of Honduras and Venezuela. There is still a middle class.

You've read about Saul/Paul? What do you think he was contracted by the Temple authorities to do? Many Northern Jews had deserted Temple feasts and funds were suffering. THat was the only reason Saul would have been sent out.

Ken you love paying taxes. All those lovely services you get. So pay some more for the needs of the poor, is my suggestion.

As I give to the poor already... I'm not sure what your point is. You never answered the reality that the law didn't exact a "tax for the poor".

Did I say "pay no taxes"? I don't think I did. I'm not even sure what Saul/Paul has to do with this.

If, as you said, those leaders were already rich... how can you say "Funds were suffering"? As a matter of fact, business was quite good in the Temple. Remember, Jesus cast them out?

I don't think we should create a scenario that wasn't there

Well then, you'll probably support free (or subsidised) education, healthcare, housing, provision etc for the needy.

I don't have a class any more. I'm free of all that. The whole system made me feel sick.

Yes and no.

I like "if I man does not work he should not eat"... a great motivator. A hand up instead of a hand down.

We have gotten away from "helping one another" to "Let the government take care of it".

I didn't have healthcare for the first 50 years of my life... It was difficult but the silver lining was that I took care of our bodies.

Education... what education??? Indoctrination?? My children home-school.

Housing? I started in a one bedroom apartment with a rattan rug, a snowy black and white TV and a mattress (with my wife). Didn't complain, didn't covet someone else's money, and moved up from there.

I'm not really understanding what your point is.

If it is "we have a responsibility to help the poor"... I do and we should. But I don't agree with forcing people to give and then give it to the government (waste of a lot of money to the "managers")

Let's look at facts:

Actual change as we increase the spending? Apparently (basically) none.

Time to revamp methodology?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes... love is about actions. As James said, "faith without works is dead".

But, I think you can only offer an opinion on the middle class. Maybe fishermen were middle class, carpenters, and even some farmers... who knows...

I've been in the poor countries of Honduras and Venezuela. There is still a middle class.



As I give to the poor already... I'm not sure what your point is. You never answered the reality that the law didn't exact a "tax for the poor".

Did I say "pay no taxes"? I don't think I did. I'm not even sure what Saul/Paul has to do with this.

If, as you said, those leaders were already rich... how can you say "Funds were suffering"? As a matter of fact, business was quite good in the Temple. Remember, Jesus cast them out?

I don't think we should create a scenario that wasn't there


Yes and no.

I like "if I man does not work he should not eat"... a great motivator. A hand up instead of a hand down.

We have gotten away from "helping one another" to "Let the government take care of it".

I didn't have healthcare for the first 50 years of my life... It was difficult but the silver lining was that I took care of our bodies.

Education... what education??? Indoctrination?? My children home-school.

Housing? I started in a one bedroom apartment with a rattan rug, a snowy black and white TV and a mattress (with my wife). Didn't complain, didn't covet someone else's money, and moved up from there.

I'm not really understanding what your point is.

If it is "we have a responsibility to help the poor"... I do and we should. But I don't agree with forcing people to give and then give it to the government (waste of a lot of money to the "managers")

Let's look at facts:

View attachment 57136

Actual change as we increase the spending? Apparently (basically) none.

Time to revamp methodology?

Or look beyond the US?

 

[Kenny]

Well they don't live them.......
That doesn't worry me because we Deists are like pagans, our local Lord is Mother Nature, so I don't care if naughty Christians go to the Saturday Satanist's club (anyway, it was boring).

But where Christians live the 'Church on Sundays-Mammon on Mondays' routine then they might as well stop the hypocrisy....kind of thing. Damn....that's a thread!

??? - maybe your sources are biased?

And where to you get than information from?

U.S. churches are using donations to pay off millions of dollars in medical debt for thousands of families - NationofChange
Churches help pay rent and bills
Nearly half of all churches and other faith institutions help people get enough to eat
Churches extend helping hands to homeless | United Methodist News Service
Transitional Housing – GRACE Grapevine

As a matter of fact, there isn't one sector that isn't being helped.

 

[Kenny]

And No, Jesus wasn't middle class........ he didn't have that kind of wealth, position or power.

So, he was then rich? He had someone holding the money bag and they gave to the poor continuously.

We know he wasn't poor, you have eliminated middle, so that just leaves me as rich.

This is all easy! Let us all pay taxes.
These taxes rise according to income, wealth at death, purchase values, Interest returns, Capital Gains etc etc.

Yes... we all should. Yes, rising according to income. Yes to taxes when you buy values and interest returns. No problem with Capital gains but No on death tax.

Now all those with huge wealth will pay taxes more fitting with their abilities to pay. But so many billionaires hide their money away. We all disliked Silas Marner the miser so let's support investigators in catchi9ng Silas Marner Billionaires.

yes... close loopholes for the rich and prosecuting those who skirt the laws.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

??? - maybe your sources are biased?

And where to you get than information from?

U.S. churches are using donations to pay off millions of dollars in medical debt for thousands of families - NationofChange
Churches help pay rent and bills
Nearly half of all churches and other faith institutions help people get enough to eat
Churches extend helping hands to homeless | United Methodist News Service
Transitional Housing – GRACE Grapevine

As a matter of fact, there isn't one sector that isn't being helped.

I have a hard time understanding what the USA has to do with Jesus?

 

[Kenny]

I have a hard time understanding what the USA has to do with Jesus?

We were founded to be able to worship God freely and unhindered

 

[Kenny]

Or look beyond the US?

Absolutely... we have an active work in Honduras and help those in Israel who are starting from scratch (and a few other places too)

 

[metis]

Would Jesus put up with unreasonable wealth and unreasonable poverty?
He didn't accept it back then, and I don't think he would now.
He would definitely support the centre-left, I think.

No, I don't think he would based on his words in the Sermon On the Mount.

And, btw, the Catholic Church condemns such income disparity that leads to poverty.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Absolutely... we have an active work in Honduras and help those in Israel who are starting from scratch (and a few other places too)

No, look at other countries as other countries and don't consider the USA as the base line kind of thing?

 

[Kenny]

No, look at other countries as other countries and don't consider the USA as the base line kind of thing?

OK? I never said US should be the baseline. For me, Jesus is the baseline.

Heaven (and I ) know that the US needs to fix their own house. But, IMV, Socialism is not the answer - it is just another failed human construct.