Would this Change your Position on Abortion?

[Thanda]

It's not your place to critique others.

I shared my family's story to demonstrate that the issue of unwanted pregnancy and legal abortion can negatively impact more than just the potential mother's life.

At no time did I ask you to use your pseudointellectual powers to dissect what happened to complete strangers.

Cool

 

[SkepticThinker]

There's a good chance that if she feared for her life she would not have simply said "I didn't want to be pregnant in the first place". But in any case I'm quite certain that even if a few people answered somewhat incorrectly, on the whole the statistics are pretty close to accurate. And what they show is that abortion is most often used for birth control rather than for medical reasons.

I think you're making assumptions that you're not qualified to make. There are at least two stories on this thread that illustrate that point very well.

 

[Thanda]

I think you're making assumptions that you're not qualified to make. There are at least two stories on this thread that illustrate that point very well.

What exactly is your point? I'm asking this honestly - are you trying to say the stats about motives for abortion are wrong. That is what I think you and I are debating but I'm not quite sure if it is.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What exactly is your point? I'm asking this honestly - are you trying to say the stats about motives for abortion are wrong. That is what I think you and I are debating but I'm not quite sure if it is.

I'm saying that they can be misleading because they don't provide any background information and therefore the answers can be somewhat vague. You're using them to decide that 50% (or whatever number you said) of abortions are made for selfish or trivial reasons ("lifestyle abortions") when in actuality, you can't really make that determination because you don't know how people came up with their responses. I think the two examples you've been given in the thread reinforce that point. My grandmother could just as easily have cited health reasons as she could have cited "I didn't want to be pregnant in the first place" and you would categorize the former answer as a valid reason for an abortion and the latter as a "lifestyle abortion" that you don't approve of.

 

[Thanda]

I'm saying that they can be misleading because they don't provide any background information and therefore the answers can be somewhat vague. You're using them to decide that 50% (or whatever number you said) of abortions are made for selfish or trivial reasons ("lifestyle abortions") when in actuality, you can't really make that determination because you don't know how people came up with their responses. I think the two examples you've been given in the thread reinforce that point. My grandmother could just as easily have cited health reasons as she could have cited "I didn't want to be pregnant in the first place" and you would categorize the former answer as a valid reason for an abortion and the latter as a "lifestyle abortion" that you don't approve of.

Okay, firstly Lifestyle abortions according to a study I referenced earlier account for more than 70% of all abortions. So let's give or take 10% and conservatively we can say over 60% of abortions are lifestyle abortions - by lifestyle I mean, they are abortions someone is having because they foresee their lifestyle being negatively affected by the arrival of the baby. So even in the most conservative sense we find that an overwhelming number of women are having abortions for lifestyle reasons.

Here's another point - abortion still carries a lot of social stigma. Therefore when someone is asked why they had an abortion they are more likely to choose the reason they believe will garner the most sympathy. Therefore, on the whole, if there is any error in the figures, the error is more likely to cause the proportion of lifestyle abortions to be reflected more conservatively than it might be in reality.

So I do not disagree with you that some women, perhaps not wishing to go into many details, may just respond with "I didn't want to be pregnant in the first place" rather than "I'm afraid for my health". I just disagree that those women would outnumber those who would rather pretend they were worried about their health when in fact they just didn't want to have a baby.

 

[RRex]

they were worried about their health then in fact they just didn't want to have a baby.

If you were a woman in danger of having your whole life negatively impacted by an unwanted pregnancy you might understand.

No women, especially young women, should be held hostage by their biology.

 

[Thanda]

If you were a woman in danger of having your whole life negatively impacted by an unwanted pregnancy you might understand.

No women, especially young women, should be held hostage by their biology.

And yet it need not negatively affect you. It could be something positive if you choose to learn and grow from the experience.

 

[RRex]

And yet it need not negatively affect you. It could be something positive if you choose to learn and grow from the experience.

Spoken like a . . . man.

 

[Thanda]

Spoken like a . . . man.

Ah yes, because this man (me) doesn't know any women who had children at an inopportune time in their lives who made good out of that bad situation - women who did not choose to wallow in grief and self-pity but who took the arrival of their child as a challenge to become more responsible and mature. Indeed!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Okay, firstly Lifestyle abortions according to a study I referenced earlier account for more than 70% of all abortions. So let's give or take 10% and conservatively we can say over 60% of abortions are lifestyle abortions - by lifestyle I mean, they are abortions someone is having because they foresee their lifestyle being negatively affected by the arrival of the baby. So even in the most conservative sense we find that an overwhelming number of women are having abortions for lifestyle reasons.

Here's another point - abortion still carries a lot of social stigma. Therefore when someone is asked why they had an abortion they are more likely to choose the reason they believe will garner the most sympathy. Therefore, on the whole, if there is any error in the figures, the error is more likely to cause the proportion of lifestyle abortions to be reflected more conservatively than it might be in reality.

So I do not disagree with you that some women, perhaps not wishing to go into many details, may just respond with "I didn't want to be pregnant in the first place" rather than "I'm afraid for my health". I just disagree that those women would outnumber those who would rather pretend they were worried about their health when in fact they just didn't want to have a baby.

You have no idea what kinds of things these people have been through, are going through, or would go through if they had an unwanted child and a poll isn't going to be able to capture all the nuance involved in making those kinds of decisions.

If you're under the impression that a majority of women are running around having multiple (and expensive) abortions because they're just that careless and self-centred, and that's all there is to it (and they apparently have endless amounts of money to do this), I have to wonder what line of reasoning brings you to that conclusion. I also have to wonder how you've concluded all that from some vague answers in a poll (some of which you've explained here, I guess). I feel like you've got something of a bias here which is apparent to me in the derogatory manner in which you refer to women making these difficult decisions. Though to be fair, I'm probably biased too.

 

[Thanda]

You have no idea what kinds of things these people have been through, are going through, or would go through if they had an unwanted child and a poll isn't going to be able to capture all the nuance involved in making those kinds of decisions.

If you're under the impression that a majority of women are running around having multiple (and expensive) abortions because they're just that careless and self-centred, and that's all there is to it (and they apparently have endless amounts of money to do this), I have to wonder what line of reasoning brings you to that conclusion. I also have to wonder how you've concluded all that from some vague answers in a poll (some of which you've explained here, I guess). I feel like you've got something of a bias here which is apparent to me in the derogatory manner in which you refer to women making these difficult decisions. Though to be fair, I'm probably biased too.

Firstly thanks for admitting your bias - I'm definitely biased and I have stated it quite clearly: I find killing unborn babies for birth control extremely appalling.

I had two experiences in high school. In grade ten I saw a few girls having what appeared to be a very serious yet secretive conversation. The matter seemed to be quite important. I eventually learned that what had happened was that one of the girls had discovered she was pregnant. I can't remember whether they were discussing whether she should have an abortion or whether that was a decision she had already made and they were simply discussing how they were going to carry it out.

Two years later, my final year, another lady who, while not exactly being my friend, was someone I was quite friendly with and would talk to from time to time fell pregnant. She did not abort so as time went on she began wearing jersey's even in the middle of summer. I never actually spoke to her about her pregnancy as I could see it wasn't something she was proud of or comfortable having up for discussion. But I made a point to continue my friendship with her as I knew she must have been going through a really hard time having to be at school while being pregnant.

The point of these two stories was to let you know that I am well aware that no woman goes hopping and skipping to the nearest clinic to get an abortion. But just understand that for me at least, the bar is set very high for justifiable reasons for killing defenseless, innocent unborn babies.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Firstly thanks for admitting your bias - I'm definitely biased and I have stated it quite clearly: I find killing unborn babies for birth control extremely appalling.

I had two experiences in high school. In grade ten I saw a few girls having what appeared to be a very serious yet secretive conversation. The matter seemed to be quite important. I eventually learned that what had happened was that one of the girls had discovered she was pregnant. I can't remember whether they were discussing whether she should have an abortion or whether that was a decision she had already made and they were simply discussing how they were going to carry it out.

Two years later, my final year, another lady who, while not exactly being my friend, was someone I was quite friendly with and would talk to from time to time fell pregnant. She did not abort so as time went on she began wearing jersey's even in the middle of summer. I never actually spoke to her about her pregnancy as I could see it wasn't something she was proud of or comfortable having up for discussion. But I made a point to continue my friendship with her as I knew she must have been going through a really hard time having to be at school while being pregnant.

The point of these two stories was to let you know that I am well aware that no woman goes hopping and skipping to the nearest clinic to get an abortion. But just understand that for me at least, the bar is set very high for justifiable reasons for killing defenseless, innocent unborn babies.

Thank you for sharing that. It gives me a better idea of where you're coming from.

I think our back and forth here kind of gets us to the heart of the issue here which has to do with what kinds of decisions

I'm not someone who thinks abortion is a subject to be taken lightly or a decision to be made hastily or carelessly. I think life is precious and fleeting. I think people should practice safe and responsible sex at all times, to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place (though my sister ended up pregnant while on the pill - twice!). I'm not sure I would consider getting an abortion, should I find myself faced with an unwanted pregnancy, but that's hard to say if I don't know what kind of situation I might find myself in when making a decision like that. And that's the bottom line for me, I think: I just don't feel comfortable making huge decisions about other peoples' bodies for them. If your scenario ever came to pass where we could remove fetuses and keep them alive outside the womb somehow, I still think the decision to do so would have to lie with the woman.

 

[Thanda]

Thank you for sharing that. It gives me a better idea of where you're coming from.

I think our back and forth here kind of gets us to the heart of the issue here which has to do with what kinds of decisions

I'm not someone who thinks abortion is a subject to be taken lightly or a decision to be made hastily or carelessly. I think life is precious and fleeting. I think people should practice safe and responsible sex at all times, to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place (though my sister ended up pregnant while on the pill - twice!). I'm not sure I would consider getting an abortion, should I find myself faced with an unwanted pregnancy, but that's hard to say if I don't know what kind of situation I might find myself in when making a decision like that. And that's the bottom line for me, I think: I just don't feel comfortable making huge decisions about other peoples' bodies for them. If your scenario ever came to pass where we could remove fetuses and keep them alive outside the womb somehow, I still think the decision to do so would have to lie with the woman.

Fair enough. This thread was not about making converts but making people think a bit more about the subject. I just hope that people can learn that the abortion debate is not just a debate about women's rights. As with any debate about any kind of rights for any group or class of people, there are always many factors to consider. My personal belief is that the current model - abortion for any reason - does not properly take into account those other factors.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Fair enough. This thread was not about making converts but making people think a bit more about the subject. I just hope that people can learn that the abortion debate is not just a debate about women's rights. As with any debate about any kind of rights for any group or class of people, there are always many factors to consider. My personal belief is that the current model - abortion for any reason - does not properly take into account those other factors.

True. Nothing is ever as simplistic as we want it to be.
We'll be debating this one to the end of time, I think.

 

[RRex]

making people think a bit more about the subject

I've been thinking about it for 50+ years. Is that long enough?

 

[Smart_Guy]

I've been thinking: if I understand correctly the main argument behind abortion is the bodily autonomy of a woman. Basically the thought process is that a woman shouldn't be forced to house another human being in her body.

In line with this thinking is the belief that if a child relies on a woman's body to live then they are not actually fully human yet and she should be allowed to cease supporting the child's existence by having an abortion.
Now as technology develops it may become possible for fetuses to be transferred from the earliest stages (a few weeks) to some machine that can help the fetuses develop into a fully viable baby.

Should such a system become available would you, if you currently support abortions, cease to support them as the baby is now no longer solely dependent on the mother's body for survival but the baby now has an option to develop independently from the mother through science?

My vote is "it depends".

I think there are other reasons to support abortion, Thanda. Like rape or poverty for example. I'm neutral when it comes to abortion, with leaning more to the favor of the woman/mother as the most important part of the equation. When it comes to the health risks department, I agree with you that your idea is a good one, tho I still prefer not doing it unless needed and that it takes its course naturally.

There is a specific factor for my view of it actually. It is when the fetus would be considered a human. My beliefs say that the soul gets to the body in the 4th month, so abortion before that is perfectly fine no matter what the reason is. After that I believe it would be killing the baby and starting this point I'm against abortion, unless there is a serious health risk to the woman/mother, then I support abortion, since the woman/mother has the higher priority. I know it could be harsh, but between the woman/mother and the unborn baby, I believe the woman/mother is more important.

 

[Thanda]

I've been thinking about it for 50+ years. Is that long enough?

It isn't how long, it is how deeply and broadly you have thought about it.

 

[RRex]

It isn't how long, it is how deeply and broadly you have thought about it.

You don't give other people much credit for brains.

 

[Mister Emu]

It isn't how long, it is how deeply and broadly you have thought about it.

I don't think that positing on how long or well people have thought on a subject is a useful or helpful path through discussion. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they haven't thought about it.

 

[Thanda]

You don't give other people much credit for brains.

My comment was a general comment. You then made it about yourself by telling how old you are. When I critique your argument you take offence. This is unlike our last subject of conversation - this is getting tiring.

EDIT: "This is not unlike"