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Would you buy it?

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Attempts to begin a justification, on this thread, have been dismissed as nonsensical. So, from what I see for the theists, what's the point? What's in it for them?

A lot would be in it for them if they would actually provide justification.

This is sort of like asking for a cube and having someone hand you a sphere.

When you reply you seem to agree that there are valid and invalid justifications and that what's valid or not is true for everyone objectively, but then you seem to turn around and support subjectivism. I'm deeply confused by this.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
When you reply you seem to agree that there are valid and invalid justifications and that what's valid or not is true for everyone objectively, but then you seem to turn around and support subjectivism. I'm deeply confused by this.
My philosophy supports one reality, not two. Monistic, not dualistic.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
What does this quote from Einstein mean to you?
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

Answer this question and I will answer yours.

Einstein dropped out of school at the age of 16 and did not go to college. Is that what you did?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Attempts to begin a justification, on this thread, have been dismissed as nonsensical. So, from what I see for the theists, what's the point? What's in it for them?

"Education is a progressive discovery of our ignorance."

- William Durant
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
My philosophy supports one reality, not two. Monistic, not dualistic.

Okay... then do you agree that a method of justification either is valid, or is not valid?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you but when you made the statement:
Attempts to begin a justification, on this thread, have been dismissed as nonsensical. So, from what I see for the theists, what's the point? What's in it for them?

It appeared to me as though you were saying that the invalid justifiers given so far were somehow "valid" and somehow fulfilled my request for justification; and that I just ignored it offhand or brushed something valid under the carpet unfairly or because I'm stuck in a box or paradigm.

That's not what's happened: I requested justification, I received an invalid "justifier," so I continue to request justification.

There is still something to gain for theists by attempting a valid justification. Again, asking for justification and then getting something that doesn't validly justify is like asking for a cube and being handed a sphere. It has nothing to do with "not thinking outside the box," it has to do with valid epistemology and efficacious approaches to truth. Approaches to truth either work or they don't; and invalid "justifiers" don't accomplish it.
 
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Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Einstein dropped out of school at the age of 16 and did not go to college. Is that what you did?
Actually I hated high school and dropped out when i WAS 16.I finished three months later at night and was in my second year of college studying electronics and music when my peers were graduating.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
So meow Mix, do you agree that what we are awares of in reality shifts as we change what we hold on to consciously?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
So meow Mix, do you agree that what we are awares of in reality shifts as we change what we hold on to consciously?

We can perceive many things differently depending on how we're thinking but only through reason can we come to knowledge of what we're perceiving.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Lack of justification for theism. The existence of defeaters for theism in the case of strong atheists.
You got me there. I am all ears, and will eagerly await anyone who will attempt to defeat a lack of justification for theism.

:D
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
We can perceive many things differently depending on how we're thinking but only through reason can we come to knowledge of what we're perceiving.
We can only perceive things depending on how we are thinking.
Consciousness is tricky in that we control it and what we allow it to observe.
Why must logic or reason coincide with reality or existence itself, if existence precedes human mind and reality flows from the human mind?
Where does the consistency between logic and reason, and existence or reality arise from?
Why must our mind necessarily determine how things actually are? To say things must be logical or reasonable is to say that we decide how things must be. To think solely within the realms of logic or reason, is to think within boundaries that will never illuminate that which is, to us, unreasonable or illogical.

Furthermore, must logic and reason conform to reality, or must reality conform to logic and reason? If the former, how can we say things must be logical or reasonable? If the latter, how can we say 'we' do not decide how reality appears? Or where does logic and reason appear beyond the human mind? To say that everything is or must be logical or reasonable is to say that the universe is wrought of mind.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
You got me there. I am all ears, and will eagerly await anyone who will attempt to defeat a lack of justification for theism.

:D

Well the only way to defeat a lack of justification for theism is by justifying it if a justification exists. Hence me requesting for such a thing for 16 or so years, and poring over 2000+ years of material without finding anything... a few promising bits here and there (Plantinga is awesome, if prone to subtle fallacy) but no justification anywhere.

Are you retracting your statement that there was indeed theistic justification floating around? Or had you not assessed whether or not it had any validity, and were just saying that there were attempted "justifications" floating around the boards? I sure haven't seen any valid ones. Have you?
 

Atomist

I love you.
Defeating the foundation for atheism, winning at least one convert (me), accomplishing something no one has been able to do for 2,000+ years, etc.

Lack of justification for theism. The existence of defeaters for theism in the case of strong atheists.
no... no... The lack of justification for theism isn't "the foundation for atheism" the fact the absence of evidence for god is "the foundation for atheism".

I mean if belief in god could be justifiable (say even if it could be false, the belief could make life more bearable to them and gives meaning), but it doesn't take away from the fact that atheism is justified if only because of the absence of evidence FOR god. But I mean evidence is only part of the justification for belief.

Justification need not be rational.

Hence why theist find pascal's wager so convincing, because it IS a good justification to believe in God... even if it's not rational/logical.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
We can only perceive things depending on how we are thinking.
Consciousness is tricky in that we control it and what we allow it to observe.
Why must logic or reason coincide with reality or existence itself, if existence precedes human mind and reality flows from the human mind?

Reality is usually used to describe the objective existence of things external to us and our thoughts, so I would disagree that reality "flows from the human mind." Perception certainly fulfills that function though (flowing from the mind).

Where does the consistency between logic and reason, and existence or reality arise from?
Why must our mind necessarily determine how things actually are?

It doesn't always; particularly when we're running on intuition alone. Reason and logic are what we use to attune ourselves as close to perceiving reality as possible. Example: you see what appears to be water in a desert; raw perception causes a false perception (mirage) but reason allows us to examine the states of affairs to understand that the heated sand can cause illusions that appear like water.

To say things must be logical or reasonable is to say that we decide how things must be. To think solely within the realms of logic or reason, is to think within boundaries that will never illuminate that which is, to us, unreasonable or illogical.

Reason is the only path to knowledge by definition of what "knowledge" is, which is justified true belief. Justification is the realm of reason, therefore all knowledge comes through reason. You seem to think that reason and faith are two different tools in a toolbox to find truth but no -- reason is the entirety of the toolbox to discern truth.

If you can't justify it or understand it through reason then you don't know it; you just believe it unjustifiably -- which is the definition of irrational.

Again, if you don't value rationality you can indeed believe irrationally. You have no obligation to value reason. The problem only arises if you do indeed value reason but then abandon it by cherry-picking what you accept on justification or lack thereof: then you are self-defeating and inconsistent.

"Irrational" sounds like a dirty word but really it only describes whether you value being rational or not. If you don't, then by all means you can carry any unjustified beliefs you like.

Furthermore, must logic and reason conform to reality, or must reality conform to logic and reason? If the former, how can we say things must be logical or reasonable? If the latter, how can we say 'we' do not decide how reality appears? Or where does logic and reason appear beyond the human mind? To say that everything is or must be logical or reasonable is to say that the universe is wrought of mind.

Reason must conform to reality since reason is how we can think in consistently logical ways, where logic is an aspect of reality (the rules by which reality operates).

Reason doesn't appear beyond our minds because it's a methodology of thought: it's the act of checking beliefs or claims for internal (contradictory or not) and external (accordance to external evidence or not) consistency. Think of reason like the "science of thought."

Logic is indeed beyond our minds (except for the symbols and words we use to describe it) as it is the rules by which reality operates... for instance identity, which is the state of affairs where something is what it is and isn't what it isn't. Identity is responsible for the corrolaries noncontradiction (something can't be X and not-X at the same time and in the same respect) and excluded middle (something, if it is at all, is either what it is or something else).

Identity: A = A, something is what it is (oasis = oasis, mirage = mirage)

Excluded Middle: A or ¬A, either something is A or it's actually not-A (either there's water in the desert or not, regardless of what we're perceiving)

Noncontradiction: ¬(A & ¬A), something can't be itself and something mutually exclusive at the same time and in the same respect (it can't be both an actual oasis and a mirage at the same time and in the same respect; it's either an oasis or a mirage)
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
no... no... The lack of justification for theism isn't "the foundation for atheism" the fact the absence of evidence for god is "the foundation for atheism".

I mean if belief in god could be justifiable (say even if it could be false, the belief could make life more bearable to them and gives meaning), but it doesn't take away from the fact that atheism is justified if only because of the absence of evidence FOR god. But I mean evidence is only part of the justification for belief.

Justification need not be rational.

Hence why theist find pascal's wager so convincing, because it IS a good justification to believe in God... even if it's not rational/logical.

You're equivocating the word "justification." I'm not using the layman's context. I'm using the epistemic context.

Justification is rigorous in epistemology; it doesn't just mean any ol' thing people use as an excuse to believe. In epistemology justification is what provides warrant to believe rationally.
 

Atomist

I love you.
Identity: A = A, something is what it is (oasis = oasis, mirage = mirage)

Excluded Middle: A or ¬A, either something is A or it's actually not-A (either there's water in the desert or not, regardless of what we're perceiving)

Noncontradiction: ¬(A & ¬A), something can't be itself and something mutually exclusive at the same time and in the same respect (it can't be both an actual oasis and a mirage at the same time and in the same respect; it's either an oasis or a mirage)
I'm not sure of the context... so hopefully I'm not strawmanning you too bad and is probably not relevant to the discussion at hand, but I find this pretty cool so I'll continue.

This is a pretty good representation of classical logic, but this type of logic has flaws... like the law of excluded middle is problematic in this
Sorites Paradox:
1,000,000 grains of sand is a heap of sand
(Premise 1)
A heap of sand minus one grain is still a heap.
(Premise 2)
... repeat premise 2
Conclusion 0 grains of sand is a heap of sand.

One solution to the is assign truth values between 0 (false) and 1 (true) to the statements. so say like 0 grains of sand is has a truth value of 0 and 1,000,000 has a truth value of 1 and everything in between has a value in between 0 and 1.
 
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