Would you have been a Nazi?

[Estro Felino]

I agree with you.
But having learnt of this phenomenon, I remember my teacher emphasising empathy. Like some of the younger members being rather naive. Just seeing it as an edgy joke not to be taken seriously.
Others “hedging their bets” in a sense trying to appease the local power in an effort of self preservation. Which I won’t judge them for.
Another aspect to consider was the historical incident of antisemitism. Whether overt or merely “a benign joke told for ages beforehand.”
Which is incidentally why a lot of modern movements want to call out even culturally accepted forms of (what they perceive) as negative racial/prejudiced stereotypes. Because people become numb to them and that can be true.
What is not accepted now was seen as benign in the past, right? So it is implicitly allowed by the culture. That’s not to say the culture was inherently bad, merely passive. But passivity can lead to a Hitler.

I understand you perfectly.
I have understood many things reading Primo Levi's works like If this is a man.

 

[Estro Felino]

By the way, have you seen Jojo Rabbit?
Imo a very poignant film in its own right

Not yet.

 

[SomeRandom]

Not yet.

I recommend you do so. You likely have more nuanced representation where you’re from.
But for a “purely” Western audience the film was superb at offering a glimpse of WWII through a unique and humorous perspective (though still quite dark.) Imo it’s a very clever dark satire

 

[Stonetree]

A common philosophical and even political thought experiment is to ask, if you were an “Aryan” born in Germany in the 1920s would you have joined the Nazi regime. There are variants to this of course. Ranging from being born in a white affluent family in the 1940s in the Deep South and therefore supporting the Klan or even during the French Revolution (both sides.)

So I wanted to ask the RF community their thoughts on the matter. Which side would you have chosen?
And I mean honestly. We all would like to answer that we would be the renegades. But culture shapes us for better or worse. And not every Nazi was just some anti Semitic racist jerk. Some were just kids indoctrinated into such an ideology.
Hell some were Nazis just to survive. Outwardly supporting the movement lest they be hanged as race traitors.
And a lot of accounts from the time were of Jewish people legitimately shocked at the transformation of their otherwise genteel and pleasant brethren. We like to think the Germans at the time were uniquely susceptible to such pressure. But at its core, it’s a human fault really.
To fall for such propaganda or even just do something awful in order to survive.
So be honest please. Would you support such regimes under such circumstances?

I was involved with team sport from 10 til almost 60 years old. We always pumped up our team mates and ourselves as if we were invincible..I never targeted a smaller opponent but if they were my size or bigger I felt the need to gain some respect in any contest. To be honest I probably would have been going along to get along. I hope I would have had the strength to refuse to kill or torture anyone but.......? There have been American soldiers who committed war crimes, sad to say.

 

[ChristineM]

A common philosophical and even political thought experiment is to ask, if you were an “Aryan” born in Germany in the 1920s would you have joined the Nazi regime. There are variants to this of course. Ranging from being born in a white affluent family in the 1940s in the Deep South and therefore supporting the Klan or even during the French Revolution (both sides.)

So I wanted to ask the RF community their thoughts on the matter. Which side would you have chosen?
And I mean honestly. We all would like to answer that we would be the renegades. But culture shapes us for better or worse. And not every Nazi was just some anti Semitic racist jerk. Some were just kids indoctrinated into such an ideology.
Hell some were Nazis just to survive. Outwardly supporting the movement lest they be hanged as race traitors.
And a lot of accounts from the time were of Jewish people legitimately shocked at the transformation of their otherwise genteel and pleasant brethren. We like to think the Germans at the time were uniquely susceptible to such pressure. But at its core, it’s a human fault really.
To fall for such propaganda or even just do something awful in order to survive.
So be honest please. Would you support such regimes under such circumstances?

Germany waa at that time a very depressed country following the humiliation and defeat of WW1. I think Naziism was born of a reaction to this and was to some extent a country wide feeling, in that everyone wanted to drag the country back to prosperity and saw fascism as the answer to a quick fix. And before the mid 1930s it was apparently working.

So would i have been a nazi? It certainly goes against everything i believe but if i was born into that situation i really don't know how life would have moulded me. As i am now, certainly not but then, it is probable that i would have at lease given support to the nazi party.

 

[SomeRandom]

Germany waa at that time a very depressed country following the humiliation and defeat of WW1. I think Naziism was born of a reaction to this and was to some extent a country wide feeling, in that everyone wanted to drag the country back to prosperity and saw fascism as the answer to a quick fix. And before the mid 1930s it was apparently working.

I find it interesting that that is often, I don’t want to use the word “justification” but that’s how it always felt like. Even from those who absolutely despised Hitler. Like that was the deciding factor in Germany becoming the Third Reich. Whilst it would certainly be a contributing factor, no doubt. I find it interesting that even “neutral” historical accounts go out of their way to point that out. Maybe that’s just to get a modern audience to sympathise with the situation or a way to try to inject nuance forcefully I don’t know. But it’s always a point of contention.
I’m more of a literature nerd than history admittedly so I dunno what to make of it

 

[ChristineM]

I find it interesting that that is often, I don’t want to use the word “justification” but that’s how it always felt like. Even from those who absolutely despised Hitler. Like that was the deciding factor in Germany becoming the Third Reich. Whilst it would certainly be a contributing factor, no doubt. I find it interesting that even “neutral” historical accounts go out of their way to point that out. Maybe that’s just to get a modern audience to sympathise with the situation or a way to try to inject nuance forcefully I don’t know. But it’s always a point of contention.
I’m more of a literature nerd than history admittedly so I dunno what to make of it

I do believe the nazi party was born of that depression. Rather like the mess in Iraq was instrumental in the rise of Isis.

Fascism existed among the German upper class before the rise of the nazi party. When the time was ripe it was a simple matter to create the nazi party and gain support from the general population.

 

[SomeRandom]

I do believe the nazi party was born of that depression. Rather like the mess in Iraq was instrumental in the rise of Isis.

Fascism existed among the German upper class before the rise of the nazi party. When the time was ripe it was a simple matter to create the nazi party and gain support from the general population.

That’s… a very good point.

I see people constantly balk at the mere suggestion that their society would become fascist. Particularly in the West since it’s strongly associated with things like the Nazi regime or even Soviet Russia.
Truth is that we’re only one set of potent set of circumstances until we reach that state

Indeed I recall people somewhat worried at the insurrection of the US. Because to a lot of the outside world, they were the fascists

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There were large Nazi parties and fellow travellers in just about every western country before WW2.
This is true of the USA and the UK.
Hitler was just the leader in Germany.
In fact the first fascist country was Italy, ruled by Benito Mussolini (Il Duce).
The first Fascist War was the civil war in Spain led by Franco.
Anti-Semitism and Fascism are not synonymous. but have become so in peoples minds.
Even Hitler did not start off blatantly anti Semitic, but many in his party certainly were. But he followed the policy to its natural conclusion with genocide.

 

[kaninchen]

There were large Nazi parties and fellow travellers in just about every western country before WW2.

Actually, there weren't.

 

[kaninchen]

So be honest please. Would you support such regimes under such circumstances?

I'd have been disqualified, of course.

Support for the NSDAP wasn't universal, for example, members of the KPD (the communists, nearly 6 million votes in the November 1932 elections), SPD (the socialists, over 7 million votes and Zentrum (Catholic Party over 4 million votes, plus 1 million who voted for it's Bavarian sister party) didn't suddenly - or ever in most cases - become ardent Nazis (who'd got not far off 12 million votes).

 

[ChristineM]

Actually, there weren't.

Actually there were. Certainly in European countries and America.


Fascism in Europe - Wikipedia

Fascism in North America - Wikipedia

 

[kaninchen]

Actually there were.

If you look, I was responding to 'large Nazi parties'. If you can find some large 'Nazi' parties outside the Reich, I'd welcome the enlightenment.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If you look, I was responding to 'large Nazi parties'. If you can find some large 'Nazi' parties outside the Reich, I'd welcome the enlightenment.

In the UK Mosley had marches and rallies of thousands of black shirts.
In Italy and Spain they were the national governments.
In the USA they were influential enough to keep the USA out of WW2. until attacks on them by Germany and their allies Japan.
Prior to and during the war. France had the National Francaise, with millions of members.

 

[Estro Felino]

Primo Levi in The Drowned and the Saved analyzes this dualism.

He did know non-Jews (Italians, Europeans in general) who did not the Nazis let command them.
And they died.
Most of them were shot right away.

 

[ChristineM]

If you look, I was responding to 'large Nazi parties'. If you can find some large 'Nazi' parties outside the Reich, I'd welcome the enlightenment.

In the UK Mosley had marches and rallies of thousands of black shirts.
In Italy and Spain they were the national governments.
In the USA they were influential enough to keep the USA out of WW2. until attacks on them by Germany and their allies Japan.

^^^ This ^^^

Edit

I will add that France has a long history of nationalist far right/fascist movements going back to the 3rd republic. And are big enough to have two people running for president in next year's elections

 

[Rival]

I've already been a National Socialist, so likely.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I find it interesting that that is often, I don’t want to use the word “justification” but that’s how it always felt like. Even from those who absolutely despised Hitler. Like that was the deciding factor in Germany becoming the Third Reich. Whilst it would certainly be a contributing factor, no doubt. I find it interesting that even “neutral” historical accounts go out of their way to point that out. Maybe that’s just to get a modern audience to sympathise with the situation or a way to try to inject nuance forcefully I don’t know. But it’s always a point of contention.
I’m more of a literature nerd than history admittedly so I dunno what to make of it

It is wrong to suppose that Hitler invented either National Socialism, Nazism, or anti semitism. However he became their leading figurehead in the world , and used them to reinforce his own power structure.
All these were powerful political trends in most if not all countries in the 1920's and 30's. They were seen as a "respectable" counter to Communism and perceived Jewish international financial dominance. They were powerfully supported by the upper classes and many industrial and financial leaders. However their active membership was largely those hard hit by the depression and looking for someone to blame for their woes.

 

[England my lionheart]

I think I’d be like Helmuth Hubener apart from being a Mormon,he and many other Germans rejected the national socialism bull****.

 

[Kooky]

It is wrong to suppose that Hitler invented either National Socialism, Nazism, or anti semitism. However he became their leading figurehead in the world , and used them to reinforce his own power structure.
All these were powerful political trends in most if not all countries in the 1920's and 30's. They were seen as a "respectable" counter to Communism and perceived Jewish international financial dominance. They were powerfully supported by the upper classes and many industrial and financial leaders. However their active membership was largely those hard hit by the depression and looking for someone to blame for their woes.

That's not entirely true. Their voters, maybe. But their hard core were WW1 veterans, often from already conservative or nationalist backgrounds, who had a difficult time accepting the reality of postwar democratic Germany and often were looking for a way to lash out at society. The Nazis were hardly the only band of right-wing thugs during that time, and their infamous predecessors, the Freikorps, was influential in several instances of right-wing and anti-socialist violence throughout Germany, and even beyond, and during their first heyday in the early 1920s (when there was hardly a depression to speak of yet) the Nazis recruited primarily from these ex Freikorps men initially.

Another important pool of Nazi membership was the old Prussian bureaucracy, who likewise were rather conservative leaning (due to the Prussian state meticulously washing socialists or suspected socialists out of its apparatus pre-WW1) and strongly anti-socialist and antisemitic.

One should also not minimize that German democracy at the time was by many seen as a result of losing the war, and conservatives and monarchists in particular had been keen of painting the Weimar government as the true culprit for whatever the Allies had inflicted on Germany.