Would you have been a Nazi?

[Kooky]

As for the original question, in the real world my paternal grandfather was recruited into the Hitlerjugend and my maternal grandfather was of age to be drafted into the Wehrmacht. I am fortunate because right now I would be way too old for either, and as a strongly socialist leaning person I would probably either continue to do my job, or be forced to sit at home until the GeStaPo comes for me and puts me into a concentration camp.

Were I 20 years younger and politically less inclined towards leftism, I'd probably have joined with one of the Nazi organizations, like so many young Germans did in the day.

 

[Rival]

I've already been a National Socialist, so likely.

Just FYI, I don't want folks to think this means I'd be one now. But I have a history of this kind of thing and a personality that is attracted to these hardcore movements.

 

[kaninchen]

In the UK Mosley had marches and rallies of thousands of black shirts.
In Italy and Spain they were the national governments.
In the USA they were influential enough to keep the USA out of WW2. until attacks on them by Germany and their allies Japan.
Prior to and during the war. France had the National Francaise, with millions of members.

There's a wonderful conflation of issues and groups here - as examples, the BUF weren't a Nazi party, fellow-travellers yes but they were not a Nazi party and American isolationists were made up of very diverse groups from the left to the right politically.

The NSDAP were a very specific phenomenon, where there were similar groups elsewhere, they were tiny.

 

[Stonetree]

I find it interesting that that is often, I don’t want to use the word “justification” but that’s how it always felt like. Even from those who absolutely despised Hitler. Like that was the deciding factor in Germany becoming the Third Reich. Whilst it would certainly be a contributing factor, no doubt. I find it interesting that even “neutral” historical accounts go out of their way to point that out. Maybe that’s just to get a modern audience to sympathise with the situation or a way to try to inject nuance forcefully I don’t know. But it’s always a point of contention.
I’m more of a literature nerd than history admittedly so I dunno what to make of it

The termination of WWI and the penalties imposed on Germany were not negotiated anyway to be fair to the German side (Axis alliance). It was just too harsh IMO. It definitely contributed to the next war.

 

[Stonetree]

If you look, I was responding to 'large Nazi parties'. If you can find some large 'Nazi' parties outside the Reich, I'd welcome the enlightenment.

Technically you may be correct about the actual size of membership in organized support groups that supported the Axis compared to the general population in pre-war US and European countries.However, after the war not many or no filmed reports of rallies supporting the pre-war Allies am I aware of. They may exist but I've never seen them. We would be arguing indefinite numbers if we continue to disagree on pre-war feelings toward either the Allies or Axis powers.(Re: feelings in the US)

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That's not entirely true. Their voters, maybe. But their hard core were WW1 veterans, often from already conservative or nationalist backgrounds, who had a difficult time accepting the reality of postwar democratic Germany and often were looking for a way to lash out at society. The Nazis were hardly the only band of right-wing thugs during that time, and their infamous predecessors, the Freikorps, was influential in several instances of right-wing and anti-socialist violence throughout Germany, and even beyond, and during their first heyday in the early 1920s (when there was hardly a depression to speak of yet) the Nazis recruited primarily from these ex Freikorps men initially.

Another important pool of Nazi membership was the old Prussian bureaucracy, who likewise were rather conservative leaning (due to the Prussian state meticulously washing socialists or suspected socialists out of its apparatus pre-WW1) and strongly anti-socialist and antisemitic.

One should also not minimize that German democracy at the time was by many seen as a result of losing the war, and conservatives and monarchists in particular had been keen of painting the Weimar government as the true culprit for whatever the Allies had inflicted on Germany.

That is specific to Germany. The trend was global.
I gave the British outlook.
Though most of Europe still feared a Soviet style uprising of the people.
And saw National socialism as a safer counter to it.
Anti Semitism was rife anyway, by the right and left of society.

 

[SomeRandom]

The termination of WWI and the penalties imposed on Germany were not negotiated anyway to be fair to the German side (Axis alliance). It was just too harsh IMO. It definitely contributed to the next war.

Yeah I have to agree with that

 

[Kooky]

That is specific to Germany. The trend was global.

It wasn't specific to Germany. You could see the same tendency in the rest of the former Central Powers as well as Italy. though I am less versed in the Interwar history of the rest of Europe so can't talk much about the specific political and demographic background of non-German speaking countries at the time.

Though most of Europe still feared a Soviet style uprising of the people.
And saw National socialism as a safer counter to it.
Anti Semitism was rife anyway, by the right and left of society.

Oh yes, absolutely. Anticommunism (and antisemitism, of course) was a huge draw, I just wanted to contest the idea that fascism mostly recruited itself from the poor and destitute - I would argue that the early core was people who were already leaning strongly conservative or nationalist, usually with a strong paramilitary wing filled with WW1 veterans of similar leanings (see e.g. the squadristi, SA, JONS, Legiunea etc.).

 

[Kooky]

If you look, I was responding to 'large Nazi parties'. If you can find some large 'Nazi' parties outside the Reich, I'd welcome the enlightenment.

Naturally, as each country of Europe had its own particular political conditions, so the fascists of every country had similarly unique positions, but we should not downplay the enormous overlap we can see in terms of political ideology, aesthetics, rhetoric, and methods.

Looking at the organizations taking part in the 1934 Fascist conference at Montreux gives a good overview of the right-wing extremist/fascist movements that were prominent in Europe at the time, or would soon become prominent, and if you look at each of them and compare and contrast, you will likely spot a lot of commonalities as well as a few key differences.

So while I agree that the NSDAP was a particularly German form of fascism that had adapted its political work and appearance to the particular political and social conditions of Weimar Germany, I contest your claim that German fascism was unique in this regard. Where it was perhaps unique was in its particularly relentless antisemitism, and its ultimate outcome in the form of a gruesome genocide.

 

[kaninchen]

Where it was perhaps unique was in its particularly relentless antisemitism, and its ultimate outcome in the form of a gruesome genocide.

It wasn't just Jews (or Gypsies), it was anybody else who wasn't part of the 'scientific' racist Aryan ideal, the Slavs would have been next on the menu. Race theory was the core ideology of Nazism - social/cultural 'Gleichschaltung' and the ultimate aim of a kind of return to an economic rural/artisan ideal were expressions of the same thing.

It has to be remembered that the background wasn't just Weimar and the economic crises of the time - Germany was a dynamic advanced industrial society - which Italy wasn't. Nazism was a response/reaction to the forces that had created that.

 

[Kooky]

It wasn't just Jews (or Gypsies), it was anybody else who wasn't part of the 'scientific' racist Aryan ideal, the Slavs would have been next on the menu. Race theory was the core ideology of Nazism - social/cultural 'Gleichschaltung' and the ultimate aim of a kind of return to an economic rural/artisan ideal were expressions of the same thing.

Yes, those are all common features of fascism.

It has to be remembered that the background wasn't just Weimar and the economic crises of the time - Germany was a dynamic advanced industrial society - which Italy wasn't. Nazism was a response/reaction to the forces that had created that.

I meant "Weimar Germany" as in, Germany in the 1920s and early 1930s, not just as a shorthand for the government specifically. But yes, that's what I tried to convey when I said that fascist movements adapted to the conditions of their respective countries.

 

[VoidCat]

I'd likely be dead...
Seeing as im autistic and trans...assuming I would've been born similar to now.
After all they killed the disabled first...at the time I wouldve been in a mental institution undergoing horrible treatment before being killed
I also likely would not have known I was nonbinary...that wasn't a term back then...i wouldve described myself differently assuming I even would've embraced my identity seeing as in the 40s I would've been tortured in an instituion

 

[VoidCat]

A common philosophical and even political thought experiment is to ask, if you were an “Aryan” born in Germany in the 1920s would you have joined the Nazi regime. There are variants to this of course. Ranging from being born in a white affluent family in the 1940s in the Deep South and therefore supporting the Klan or even during the French Revolution (both sides.)

So I wanted to ask the RF community their thoughts on the matter. Which side would you have chosen?
And I mean honestly. We all would like to answer that we would be the renegades. But culture shapes us for better or worse. And not every Nazi was just some anti Semitic racist jerk. Some were just kids indoctrinated into such an ideology.
Hell some were Nazis just to survive. Outwardly supporting the movement lest they be hanged as race traitors.
And a lot of accounts from the time were of Jewish people legitimately shocked at the transformation of their otherwise genteel and pleasant brethren. We like to think the Germans at the time were uniquely susceptible to such pressure. But at its core, it’s a human fault really.
To fall for such propaganda or even just do something awful in order to survive.
So be honest please. Would you support such regimes under such circumstances?

I reread this. I just skimmed it at first. Take back my previous response. This assumes I wasnt born disabled or LGBT...
Hmmmm....
I dont know. I'm very big on human rights now and very passionate. But is that partly due to my autism as a study I read one time shows that autistics view morals different...if I wasn't autistic would I still be as involved as I am now with human rights?

I can't fathom how I'd been if I wasn't autistic how I would view the world. My experiences with bullying for traits I can't help has taught me oppression and how it feels I'd never wouldve bowed to Nazis with that experience.

But without growing up hated for being autistic...and later being hated for being trans...i don't know how I would've ended up that person is so foreign to me I can't fathom it. Those experiences really shaped me.

A nonautistic me really wouldn't be me it would changed so much of how I view things both mentally and sociologically. The way I view the world and interact with folks is autistic. The way folks respond to me is in response to how I behave and act which is so different from them. Everything about me would be different. I can't answer this question. If I wasn't autistic and I was Aryan in Nazi Germany I wouldn't have been me even in the slightest

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah, because I love Germany. I wouldn't have committed any atrocities, though. That ain't my thing. Actually, I might've been in the SA, since many of them were just a bunch of butch gays who liked street fighting with commies. Lol.

Other than the SA, the Wehrmacht or the Waffen SS. I would've died on a battlefield somewhere.

 

[kaninchen]

Yes, those are all common features of fascism.

That racism was a common feature of Fascism is statement I'd both agree and disagree with - it's a 'depends what you mean by' question and we'll just have to let it stand that we differ in our interpretation.

 

[kaninchen]

I meant "Weimar Germany" as in, Germany in the 1920s and early 1930s, not just as a shorthand for the government specifically.

The supposed 'traitorous' circumstances behind the birth of Weimar (the stab in the back) were hugely important in the right wing mythology of the post-War period and in Hitler's developing ideology but the longer-term background of the development of German industry and technology, together with the social dislocations involved, was part of the whole 'threat' to the rural and lower middle class voters who were to become the key to the electoral success of the NSDAP.

 

[InChrist]

A common philosophical and even political thought experiment is to ask, if you were an “Aryan” born in Germany in the 1920s would you have joined the Nazi regime. There are variants to this of course. Ranging from being born in a white affluent family in the 1940s in the Deep South and therefore supporting the Klan or even during the French Revolution (both sides.)

So I wanted to ask the RF community their thoughts on the matter. Which side would you have chosen?
And I mean honestly. We all would like to answer that we would be the renegades. But culture shapes us for better or worse. And not every Nazi was just some anti Semitic racist jerk. Some were just kids indoctrinated into such an ideology.
Hell some were Nazis just to survive. Outwardly supporting the movement lest they be hanged as race traitors.
And a lot of accounts from the time were of Jewish people legitimately shocked at the transformation of their otherwise genteel and pleasant brethren. We like to think the Germans at the time were uniquely susceptible to such pressure. But at its core, it’s a human fault really.
To fall for such propaganda or even just do something awful in order to survive.
So be honest please. Would you support such regimes under such circumstances?

No, as a born again Christian I would have been a part of the resistance and hidden Jews like Corrie Ten Boom and her family, by God’s strength and grace.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Being transgender and having Jewish ancestry, no. I would likely be a refugee or worse. If born as is now.

If not born as now but in the 'Aryan' poster mold, the likelihood would be a yes.

I've always wanted to belong and contribute to something bigger than me. I probably wouldn't have hesitated. I would have simply been young, impressionable and enthusiastic.

If born male I would likely have joined the Hitler Youth then if old enough the Wehrmacht.

Nazi Viker makes me think of...

Lmao.

 

[mangalavara]

Just FYI, I don't want folks to think this means I'd be one now. But I have a history of this kind of thing and a personality that is attracted to these hardcore movements.

Same here. Beginning at the age of 11, I was obsessed with Third Reich imagery and the German language. In my last year of high school, I co-founded a secret society that was Nazish. I even told my commie theater teacher that I was a National Socialist. She thought I meant I was a Stalinist or something. Lol. Even though I held those beliefs, I was okay with having friends of non-European origin. When I announced online that I no longer subscribed to those beliefs, an online Qatari friend was happy about it, and she said she knew I would grow out of it. I get the feeling that deep down inside, I merely liked the Nazi aesthetic and authoritarian air. The 'beliefs' were just youthful rebellion attempting to sound serious.

Haila: If you happen to be reading this and get the feeling that you remember me from LJ back in the 00s, I wish that I had not taken you for granted. I miss you, and I love you platonically just as you loved me platonically.

 

[InChrist]

A common philosophical and even political thought experiment is to ask, if you were an “Aryan” born in Germany in the 1920s would you have joined the Nazi regime. There are variants to this of course. Ranging from being born in a white affluent family in the 1940s in the Deep South and therefore supporting the Klan or even during the French Revolution (both sides.)

So I wanted to ask the RF community their thoughts on the matter. Which side would you have chosen?
And I mean honestly. We all would like to answer that we would be the renegades. But culture shapes us for better or worse. And not every Nazi was just some anti Semitic racist jerk. Some were just kids indoctrinated into such an ideology.
Hell some were Nazis just to survive. Outwardly supporting the movement lest they be hanged as race traitors.
And a lot of accounts from the time were of Jewish people legitimately shocked at the transformation of their otherwise genteel and pleasant brethren. We like to think the Germans at the time were uniquely susceptible to such pressure. But at its core, it’s a human fault really.
To fall for such propaganda or even just do something awful in order to survive.
So be honest please. Would you support such regimes under such circumstances?

I think you made an important point...”at its core, it’s a human fault really”. It’s easier to look back with hindsight at the Nazi regime with an awareness of the evil and propaganda that led up to it. I’m thinking it may not be as easy to see when it’s happening in the present and one is constantly surrounded with propaganda.

“The enduring beauty of fascism is that it requires so little from us… so little independent thought; just our basic belief and adherence to a limited set of popularly-shared directives and narratives that once fully accepted, relieve us of the need to address stubborn questions or to fret over subtle differences of opinion and feeling.

Propaganda reassures us that we are complete, that we know all there is to know, that we are rational, pragmatic and pure, that the science has been settled and that we are a part of something special.

Such a surrender to reductionist narratives cuts across all classes and income brackets. Neither the most educated nor the least uneducated retain any special advantage in the face of powerful consensus-shaping propaganda.

PROPAGANDA is, of course, the life-blood of fascist control. Maintaining the economic, governmental and scientific frameworks of a technocratic-fascist “operating system” is unthinkable without propaganda and disinformation. When truth is seen as a liability to power, it must always be disallowed, and all instances of it effectively penalized.”

Propaganda And the Fatal Attraction Of Technocratic-Fascism