Would You Leave Christians to Go to Hell?

[RedDragon94]

Interesting point; yet whereas the Pharisees were basing there idea on works of the Law, as in fulfilling all parts of their traditions, Yeshua was emphasizing helping humanity, as being the work of God, and not religious ritual.

Jesus came to fulfill the law by loving God first and foremost and loving others as a result of that obedience. Yeshua did not see helping humanity as the end, it was the means to the end. The end goal was to glorify the community of God the trinity. The thing about it is if you make religion about helping humanity it's about humanity and not God. God is here to be served when all is said and done and Jesus modeled how humans are to serve God.

Whereas Paul the Pharisee dismantled Yeshua's teachings,

John 3:18, John 3:36, Mark 16:16, Ephesians 2:8-10, Galatians 5:18-21

and reestablished that religious ritualism is more important then doing works,

Religious rituals are works. When a Christian takes communion or is baptized he or she is doing so to identify themselves with Jesus. If they do not believe first then all it was was eating a cracker and getting dunked in water.

as people might boast about being a righteous human being.

Well there's a difference between self-righteousness and imputed righteousness. Imputed righteousness gives a person a new identity whereas self-righteousness just makes one more pious.

 

[wizanda]

What you are saying not only makes no sense but sounds cultist.

Then maybe you missed what i was saying....

Yeshua within the synoptic gospels (see together as one), is overall a matching character; what we find within the gospel of John isn't his words or teachings (no parables), repeated use of 'I Am', and has numerous contradictions Vs the synoptic gospels.

Many people recognize Paul contradicts Yeshua's words, like almost half this forum seems to be aware, except for Christians who are following Paul, and not Yeshua.

So maybe it does sound like a cult to go back to the words and teachings of Yeshua, not some imposters, putting forward Pharisaic Hellenistic Gnostic ideas.

We are saved by grace.

Yeshua said not to expect grace; yet Paul made his whole ideology rest upon it.

Here is a list of where Paul contradicts Christ, and there are loads more websites with lists if you look.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Then maybe you missed what i was saying....

Yeshua within the synoptic gospels (see together as one), is overall a matching character; what we find within the gospel of John isn't his words or teachings (no parables), repeated use of 'I Am', and has numerous contradictions Vs the synoptic gospels.

Many people recognize Paul contradicts Yeshua's words, like almost half this forum seems to be aware, except for Christians who are following Paul, and not Yeshua.

So maybe it does sound like a cult to go back to the words and teachings of Yeshua, not some imposters, putting forward Pharisaic Hellenistic Gnostic ideas.

Yeshua said not to expect grace; yet Paul made his whole ideology rest upon it.

Here is a list of where Paul contradicts Christ, and there are loads more websites with lists if you look.

I am going to believe what the Bible says over someone who is not making any sense at all. Good day

 

[RedDragon94]

Yeshua said not to expect grace;

How does that say not to expect grace? That passage says the exact opposite of that. It's saying that we are to show grace to our enemy. The deeper lesson, we're all enemies of God and he decides to love us in spite of our sin. The point of that passage is Romans 5:8, which Paul wrote.

 

[wizanda]

I am going to believe what the Bible

This is the point you don't, you believe parts of the Bible, as everyone does, and have chosen Paul, John, and Simon the stone (petros); instead of Yeshua, who clearly said the deception would happen soon after.

we're all enemies of God and he decides to love us in spite of our sin.

That is worse than the Pharisees taught; Yeshua was saying God is our father who gives us what we need, and all we need to do is knock, and the door will open.

That passage says the exact opposite of that. It's saying that we are to show grace to our enemy.

The word credit, thanks, etc is grace in Greek, so Yeshua is saying we don't get grace for doing good deeds, it is only when 'we lend to them without expecting to get anything back.'

In Luke 17:9-10 he also clearly says not to expect grace; yet Paul tells you you're in a race for grace expecting a crown in Heaven, how you can't see that is the pompous words spoke in Daniel is bizarre.

 

[RedDragon94]

The word credit, thanks, etc is grace in Greek, so Yeshua is saying we don't get grace for doing good deeds, it is only when 'we lend to them without expecting to get anything back.'

Well I don't know Greek so I don't know if you're lying to me.

In Luke 17:9-10 he also clearly says not to expect grace; yet Paul tells you you're in a race for grace expecting a crown in Heaven, how you can't see that is the pompous words spoke in Daniel is bizarre.

Just an FYI, the passage is talking about obedience not grace. What the whole point of the passage is is that you have to obey Christ's Gospel; meaning believe in Jesus and cooperate with the Spirit of God. It has to do with receiving grace because if you haven't received grace you haven't obeyed even the first command. Jesus also says in that passage that whoever causes one of the little ones to doubt his Gospel it would be better for them to chain a millstone around their neck and throw themselves in the sea. So I would think about myself if I were you.

 

[wizanda]

Jesus also says in that passage that whoever causes one of the little ones to doubt his Gospel it would be better for them to chain a millstone around their neck and throw themselves in the sea. So I would think about myself if I were you.

The 'little ones' were the people believing in him being alive was the fulfillment of prophecy; not some death cult, that was established after.

So i do think about all of those who are like a mill stone, that shall be chucked into the ocean, who follow the mother of all harlots.

Which of course takes loads of self examination to see, if you truly follow Yeshua it takes refinement to understand it.

Just an FYI, the passage is talking about obedience not grace.

Luke 17:9 Does he thank (grace G5485) that servant because he did the things that were commanded? I think not.

G5485 - χάρις - charis - khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

• Total KJV Occurrences: 156
• Translated as Grace: 130
• 

 

[BenTheBeliever]

This is the point you don't, you believe parts of the Bible, as everyone does, and have chosen Paul, John, and Simon the stone (petros); instead of Yeshua, who clearly said the deception would happen soon after.

That is just your opinion. At the end of the day your opinion does not matter.

 

[wizanda]

That is just your opinion. At the end of the day your opinion does not matter.

It is based on the numerous contradictions within the text, and could be substantiated to make it clear to anyone.

John, Paul and Simon the stone.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

It is based on the numerous contradictions within the text, and could be substantiated to make it clear to anyone.

John, Paul and Simon the stone.

Once again your opinion

 

[wizanda]

Once again your opinion

Not only my opinion, many people have recognized that Paul is Anti-Christ's teachings, including noble prize winners, and award winning theologians.

There are other scholars who have recognized John is false, and the fact it isn't in the synoptic gospels (which means see together as one), is because it conflicts with them so much.

Plus all this is saying is follow Yeshua, and not the Pharisees (Paul, John, Simon); as at the end of the day it is eternal life in question, and to ignore that we might have all been misled as prophesied, is your choice.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Not only my opinion, many people have recognized that Paul is Anti-Christ's teachings, including noble prize winners, and award winning theologians.

There are other scholars who have recognized John is false, and the fact it isn't in the synoptic gospels (which means see together as one), is because it conflicts with them so much.

Plus all this is saying is follow Yeshua, and not the Pharisees (Paul, John, Simon); as at the end of the day it is eternal life in question, and to ignore that we might have all been misled as prophesied, is your choice.

Just cause others share the same view with you does not mean you are right.

 

[wizanda]

Just cause others share the same view with you does not mean you are right.

Nope, no one said i was.... The text speaks for its self, Yeshua and the prophets were right, and some people prefer Pharisaic doctrine....

Plus don't really have the discernment to understand why it is wrong, which is why you have intelligent theologians recognizing it.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Nope, no one said i was.... The text speaks for its self, Yeshua and the prophets were right, and some people prefer Pharisaic doctrine....

Plus don't really have the discernment to understand why it is wrong, which is why you have intelligent theologians recognizing it.

I am going to believe what God says. Not you

 

[wizanda]

I am going to believe what God says. Not you

Well that is the point, Christianity defiles tons of Torah Laws; so I'm not sure about them fully believing what God said....

I was raised Christian by the way, thus it was only through investigation, that I decided to accept what the Bible forewarned..