Would you marry a gay couple...

[Altfish]

Sorry if I misread your post. To me you seemed to be putting all those horrible events squarely at the feet of God...yet none of it is his doing...humans are doing this to themselves.
Even the increase in earthquakes and wild weather can be put down to man's mismanagement of the planet.
Starving children and much of the ill health and suffering are because of man and his lifestyle or political choices. Others suffer because of what other humans are doing e.g. what is happening with the refugee crisis.

Yet, God is aware and he cares about ALL of it, yet you made it seem as if the gay marriage was so far down the list that it didn't concern him. He had very specific laws on sexual conduct among his people and homosexual conduct was right up there with other serious misdeeds. The other things might seem more important, but to a perfect God all imperfection needs rectifying. This is what is promised by the rule of his kingdom. (Matthew 6:9-10) God's will is to be done "on earth as it is in heaven".

Maybe we were talking from opposite points of view.
However, I wasn't blaming god for earthquakes, etc. But I was asking why god doesn't concentrate on the serious events rather than worry about what two loving and consenting adults do in bed.
Since you are quoting god's laws, do you also agree with Numbers 15:32-36 - that a man should be put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

 

[Deeje]

Matthew 19 beginning speaks in the context of divorce. "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"... Nowhere is it asked if homosexuality is okay or not.
To this Jesus says.
“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’? and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

A context clearly in the context of divorce, not homosexuality, not incest, not pre marital sex, not bestiality... But divorce.
But since you have to bring at least something up to condemn a minority at all costs, let's consider your point as well.

Then the most ignored passage comes which conservatives care little about

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
So, divorce that is OPENLY MENTIONED AND CONDEMNED is Christian but gay marriage isn't because even though Jesus said nothing on this issue, there has to be something done to reverse this logic and condemn homosexuality but accept Divorce.

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I can tell you that we adhere closely to what Jesus taught regarding marriage and divorce. If we have no scriptural grounds for divorce, we must remain with our marriage mate. We made a vow before God that only death would part us. God yoked us together so only he can sanction divorce.

Matthew 19:12 was an excellent scripture to demonstrate that some must remain "eunuchs" for the sake of the kingdom....do you now deny what it says?

Those who want their cake and eat it too are fooling themselves.- huh?

Yep, God isn't stupid but people often treat him as if he is.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

Aren't you suppose to give some other reason as to why we must accept Divorce but hate homosexuals and rape virgin children of non Christians?

 

[Deeje]

Maybe we were talking from opposite points of view.
However, I wasn't blaming god for earthquakes, etc. But I was asking why god doesn't concentrate on the serious events rather than worry about what two loving and consenting adults do in bed.

Like I said, you have to understand why he hasn't up to now. There are very good reasons if you care to know. The Bible is one story from Genesis to Revelation and in the end, all that was lost to mankind through the disobedience of one man is returned to us by the obedience of another man.

Since you are quoting god's laws, do you also agree with Numbers 15:32-36 - that a man should be put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

Since that was God's law to the Jews and he expected that his people would respect his rules, (which they voluntarily said that they would obey) God does not exercise his justice with sentiment. His justice is perfect. Jews had six days to gather all the things they needed so that the Sabbath law could be observed. It seems like a trivial thing, but as I said, nothing is trivial to God. Everything matters in its own context.
The law stated that those who break the Sabbath were to be put to death. When God said "NO WORK", he actually meant it.

 

[Deeje]

Aren't you suppose to give some other reason as to why we must accept Divorce but hate homosexuals and rape virgin children of non Christians?

I will respond to reasonable questions but if you just want to argue for the sake of it....then I am not interested.
No one said anything about hating anyone. How does the rape of non Christians even come into this conversation?

 

[Subhankar Zac]

I will respond to reasonable questions but if you just want to argue for the sake of it....then I am not interested.
No one said anything about hating anyone. How does the rape of non Christians even come into this conversation?

Are you sure you've read the bible entirely or just the ones that can be manipulated for anti gay sentiments?

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deut 20:10-14

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

Since homosexuality is unchristian because it is condemned in the bible so rape must be Christian because it's advocated by God, also sex slavery.
And I did ask you for your acceptance of divorce and rape and condemning homosexuality. I didn't get any reason for that.

Homophobia isn't hatred, just as slavery wasn't racist 200 years back and the inquisition wasn't torturous either.

 

[Altfish]

Since that was God's law to the Jews and he expected that his people would respect his rules, (which they voluntarily said that they would obey) God does not exercise his justice with sentiment. His justice is perfect. Jews had six days to gather all the things they needed so that the Sabbath law could be observed. It seems like a trivial thing, but as I said, nothing is trivial to God. Everything matters in its own context.
The law stated that those who break the Sabbath were to be put to death. When God said "NO WORK", he actually meant it.

How do I decipher which parts of the bible are for Christians and which parts only apply to Jews?

 

[Thanda]

I am an ordained minister, I live in the USA, and I grew up as a very conservative Southern Baptist in Alabama. Knowing that...

I was recently asked if I would ever marry a gay couple. My answer was, YES. The person that asked me that was taken back by my lack of hesitation in my answer. They could not believe what they just heard.

After they recovered from the initial shock, they asked "why?" This was my answer:

In this country, there is a separation of Church and State. The government (State) can't dictate to the Church how it is to be run, what to believe, or who can serve in a clergy-capacity. By the same token, the Church can't dictate the law to the government, regardless of what the issues might be.

I went on to explain that not everyone in this country is a Christian, so why should everyone be subject to Christian "law?" The US Constitution grants rights to all of its citizens, regardless of race, gender, religious beliefs or sexual orientation. Gays have the exact same rights as everyone else, and that includes being married.

That person was speechless. I added that I personally do not agree with a gay lifestyle, but it is not my place to discriminate or judge. To each their own in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

At that point they tried to make some type of come back and the best they could was to mutter something about children seeing two guys kissing in public. While I understand the confusion that might cause in a child, I actually can't recall a time that I have seen that happen. If it does, I will deal with it in my own way with regard to my children.

The last thing they mentioned was how gay men would be sexually abusive to children. I stopped them right there and explained that there is a HUGE difference between being gay and being a pedophile. People can be gay and have no attraction to children what-so-ever.

They walked off.

Honestly I do not understand this post. How does the separation of church and state cause a church minister to believe he should marry (presumably in a religious ceremony) a gay couple?

 

[Subhankar Zac]

How do I decipher which parts of the bible are for Christians and which parts only apply to Jews?

The new testament apparently is meant for Christians but the laws about adultery, divorce and gossiping don't apply.
And the old testament applies when making homophobic laws.

 

[Deathbydefault]

I would, yes.
But, I don't think being a minister would be the wisest career choice for me.

They walked off.

Obviously. You used logic and promoted critical thinking, were you really expecting a different result?
Most of the people I see who are opposed to gay rights also seem to be opposed to those two things... when they aren't convenient, that is.

 

[Deeje]

How do I decipher which parts of the bible are for Christians and which parts only apply to Jews?

Easy...if what is in the OT is restated in the NT, it is binding on Christians. If its part of Israel's ceremonial or dietary laws, these pertained only to Jews. There was no law restated to Christians that they should be circumcised, observe a Sabbath or sacrifice animals. On the other hand Jesus condemned adultery, divorce and anything else that elevated one human being above another. He said "all you are brothers". All positions in the congregations were positions of service, not power.

 

[Deeje]

Are you sure you've read the bible entirely or just the ones that can be manipulated for anti gay sentiments?

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deut 20:10-14

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

Since homosexuality is unchristian because it is condemned in the bible so rape must be Christian because it's advocated by God, also sex slavery.
And I did ask you for your acceptance of divorce and rape and condemning homosexuality. I didn't get any reason for that.

Homophobia isn't hatred, just as slavery wasn't racist 200 years back and the inquisition wasn't torturous either.

A typical representation of one who thinks God is a human or must abide by ill informed human reasoning. It is obvious that you don't want discussion, you just want to condemn.
Not interested in your hostility.

 

[Altfish]

Easy...if what is in the OT is restated in the NT, it is binding on Christians. If its part of Israel's ceremonial or dietary laws, these pertained only to Jews. There was no law restated to Christians that they should be circumcised, observe a Sabbath or sacrifice animals. On the other hand Jesus condemned adultery, divorce and anything else that elevated one human being above another. He said "all you are brothers". All positions in the congregations were positions of service, not power.

It is easy when you know how.
Where does it condemn homosexuality in the NT?

 

[Subhankar Zac]

A typical representation of one who thinks God is a human or must abide by ill informed human reasoning. It is obvious that you don't want discussion, you just want to condemn.
Not interested in your hostility.

Intolerance to Christian intolerance is intolerance?
U mean a God who rapes, kills and burns people for no reason?
when your bigotry is pointed out by dodging questions from your text, asking justifications for the crimes committed by your God.. it's hostility?

 

[David1967]

It is easy when you know how.
Where does it condemn homosexuality in the NT?

Book of Romans

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Can you do that now? Marry a gay couple? Who would get the dog in a three way break up?

I was thinking that...wasn't going to say it!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can I ask what is "Christian" about a gay marriage?

Nothing.

If we're going by the Bible's description, then Christian marriage is one man subjugating one or more women, who he bought from their fathers and are counted among his property.

Same-sex marriage, as a partnership of equals, defies this tradition... as do most modern western opposite-sex marriages.

 

[Demonslayer]

I am an ordained minister, I live in the USA, and I grew up as a very conservative Southern Baptist in Alabama. Knowing that...

I was recently asked if I would ever marry a gay couple. My answer was, YES. The person that asked me that was taken back by my lack of hesitation in my answer. They could not believe what they just heard.

After they recovered from the initial shock, they asked "why?" This was my answer:

In this country, there is a separation of Church and State. The government (State) can't dictate to the Church how it is to be run, what to believe, or who can serve in a clergy-capacity. By the same token, the Church can't dictate the law to the government, regardless of what the issues might be.

I went on to explain that not everyone in this country is a Christian, so why should everyone be subject to Christian "law?" The US Constitution grants rights to all of its citizens, regardless of race, gender, religious beliefs or sexual orientation. Gays have the exact same rights as everyone else, and that includes being married.

That person was speechless. I added that I personally do not agree with a gay lifestyle, but it is not my place to discriminate or judge. To each their own in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

At that point they tried to make some type of come back and the best they could was to mutter something about children seeing two guys kissing in public. While I understand the confusion that might cause in a child, I actually can't recall a time that I have seen that happen. If it does, I will deal with it in my own way with regard to my children.

The last thing they mentioned was how gay men would be sexually abusive to children. I stopped them right there and explained that there is a HUGE difference between being gay and being a pedophile. People can be gay and have no attraction to children what-so-ever.

They walked off.

Good for you Neo. I'm lucky to be living in the relatively secular northeastern U.S. It must be hard admitting "progressive" attitudes like this in the Bible Belt. Bravo sir.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Can I ask what is "Christian" about a gay marriage? Can they not get "married" in a non-religious ceremony? Civil ceremonies do not involve sanctioning something God would never recognize.

Matt 19:4-6:
Jesus said....“Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart."

God would never "yoke" together a same sex couple. Marriage mates must be "male and female".
I believe that your logic is sadly flawed and distorted by the world's attitude, not God's. The laws of the land do not override the laws of God. When did he change his mind about homosexuality? Sexual sin is sexual sin...no matter what the gender is.

Remember, Christianity does not have a monopoly over the word god nor does it have over marriage and the definition of it.

Also, how do you define gay marriage?

When two people get married, how are they automatically sinning?

If God doesn't bless any two people in holy matrimony, then it is not a sin that they get married because according to some Christians, it isn't a marriage. What makes it a sin when you say god doesn't bless them no matter how marriage like it seems?

Keep in mind that you are telling us your disagreements with a different definition of homosexuality than most homosexuals define it as. Wouldn't it be logical to find disagreements in our claims rather than push the biblical definition on us when many of us don't even fall under that definition?

As for marriage, what about two people of the same gender makes god deny them his blessings?

Is marriage to you more than what is between two people's legs? If so how would you define it? If not, how does one's gender define whether or not they are sinning?

Think about it. If I am holding hands with a female, what am I doing that god considers a sin? What is the explanation or logic behind what god says (you can use the bible with commentary please) or is there logic or just do this or else?

Murderers get blessed by god when they are married. Those who have divorced and brought back together or find another to marry in holy mattrimony

God blesses murderers who marry. He blesses those who have divorced and found a person who they feel they will be together for life. God blesses pedophiles who marry. This is taking into account homosexuality isn't about sexual orientation but about action.

God blesses two people of different nationalities who marry. He blesses people who have one leg, can't hear, and born with three fingers. He blesses short and tall people together. He blesses left handed and right handed people together.

In any of these cases, I said "two people" I did not say male or female; because marriage isn't about specifically gender. We are spiritually, physically, and mentally attracted to those god pulled us to not someone we choose to lust over (talking about people who believe in god).

I said two people believe marriage goes beyond gender. God blesses two people who cannot have children. Of course you may have assumed I meant homosexuals, but heterosexuals sometimes can't have children either. Should they not have sex? If they can, isn't that against the Bible since they cannot have children?

My Christian friend tells me people who can't have children and homosexuals should get married. She says "why would they want to get married?" and I think, what is she really looking at: the person's heart or the person's inability to have children. What is she really seeing, someones sex or someone's ability to love someone beyond gender?

There is no where in the Bible that mentions homosexuality is a sexual orientation
There is no where in the Bible that mentions same-sex couples cannot marry in holy matrimony.

It does say that homosexuality is a lustful action between two people of the same-sex
It does say that marriage is between man and woman

Can you see the difference? You are arguing the second half, a lot of us are arguing the first half. Read the first half, and think about the person's heart not a person's sex. WHO they are in the eyes of god not WHAT parts they have. Think about how they join together in holy matrimony and why according to them to see if they are blessed by god.

Don't judge a book by its cover

 

[Jainarayan]

Can I ask what is "Christian" about a gay marriage? Can they not get "married" in a non-religious ceremony? Civil ceremonies do not involve sanctioning something God would never recognize.

That's the point. No marriage in the US is valid without a state-issued license. A couple can have an ecumenical council of a Hindu pujari, the Dalai Lama, a RC or EO priest, a Presbyterian minister, a Vulcan High Priestess, et. al., all officiating at once but without that license, the marriage is invalid. That a clergy-person can sign and finalize the license is only a nod to tradition. This is something lost on too many people... marriage in the US is not a religious institution. My husband and I were married by a judge in her chambers, with no mention of anyone's God. She wouldn't even know who my Gods are. Personally, I am not one to clamor for religious recognition of my marriage because, while Hinduism is not opposed to homosexuality per se (nothing scriptural against it), Hinduism is pro-family and pro-procreation. Therefore I'd be hard-pressed to find a pujari to marry us in a Hindu ceremony.