Would you marry a gay couple...

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Yes it saved a few of us from the hangman's noose or from the firing squad. (Romans 13:1-2) They knew we would not try to escape, either. (Acts of the Apostles 16:25-34)

Way to carry that cross...

"Whoever tries to save his life will lose it" -- Jesus

What kind of loving God puts his children in a park and then deserts them without a word?

Aren't you waiting for Jesus' return? A return to Paradise?

You seem to forget that Israel's land was gifted to them by the one who owns the whole planet

Well, per their military leaders, anyway.

It even tells us to hate what God hates....and he hates what is happening in the world probably more than we do.

Well, frankly, He's TRYING to fix it by increasing equality, but lots of people are telling Him He still needs to be as petty and hateful as they are.

Well no, actually there are no "Christians" in our organization who are drug addicts or who continue to abuse substances once they dedicate their lives to God.

Yeah, a former leader of Iran also claimed it was impossible for gays to be in Iran. Wanna know why that is?

Those who continue to abuse alcohol or drugs cannot stay in our brotherhood. They are helped as much as humanly possible, but they are not tolerated if they make no effort to get on top of their addictions.

Addict: I need help.
Religion: Yay for Jesus! Be healed!
Addict: Actually, this might take years, as my neurons were reprogrammed thanks to foreign chemicals, and I might not always make progress.
Religion: Get the hell out of here! We're like sitcoms: no storylines over 22 minutes long!

We woke up a long time ago to the fact that calling yourself a Christian, when you are behaving in an unchristian way, is the height of hypocrisy.

Yeah ...

If Jesus or his apostles taught it, then we adhere to it.

Jesus was frustrated that his apostles were morons. Who is more important, Jesus or the apostles? The apostles were acting just like the Pharisees in the NT, wanting to exclude people they didn't like, despite that being against Jesus' message.

We have no command from Jesus to observe a Sabbath, circumcise our sons or to stick to Jewish festivals and dietary customs.

You HAVE been expressly told to get over "eunuchs" (no matter how they got their junk missing), welcome the outcast, give freely (no takesies-backsies by filing itemized tax returns), pay taxes, don't **** shame, don't prioritize temples/buildings, etc.

Oh, and if you love your family, you cannot be a Christian. Soooo.....

This is God's law. The parable of the prodigal son demonstrates that a child can leave and squander their resources on an immoral lifestyle but when they have run out of options and are ready to show that they made a mistake, and are ready to change their ways, parents will welcome them home.

Well, the father might as well, since it's his fault the son wasn't raised right anyway.

The UN International Rights of the Child Charter guarantees that children have more rights than their parents. In my country a minor can move out of home and in with a drug abuser or a pedophile and the government will support them financially. Its a sick world.

It's a sick world if we force children to live in abusive households, too.

No genuine Witness of Jehovah, no matter how much they might harbor animosity towards their children's choice of a mate, would ever justify that kind of conduct.

They would if they were abusive, especially if trained by a denomination (JW certainly not being the only one) sucking the third leg of patriarchy. A rotten apple is still an apple, no matter how one tries to deny it.

Well, since the reason for sex and marriage in the first place is to produce a family, that is not naturally possible with same sex couples. They cannot bear children without the aid of a third party. A third party in a marriage makes for technical adultery. And since same sex couples cannot legally "marry" (in most places) their sexual relationship fits the Biblical definition of fornication. This word covers unlawful sex in any gender.

So, obviously we need to revoke the marriage licenses of ALL who don't pass a pregnancy test every year...

I'm going to do my best to ignore the fact you just said that.

Thank you. I find it to be crueler than cancer. At least you're still yourself with that.

And not that the Bible has to be the authority here, but I'm surprised that a Christian such as yourself wouldn't appreciate the message in Romans 14:

Wow. Paul's right at least twice now (that all are equal under Christ and now this one). He might end up more accurate than a broken watch yet.

Can you please teleport it to the Sahara desert or to Timbuktu for me, please. Assuming you get your strength from God, obviously.

Jesus said it only takes a smidge of faith to do that, but like jumping off a cliff, he doesn't seem into it. Krishna, on the other hand, can wield one like an umbrella ... it's just like getting ahold of IT ... just call India

 

[Demonslayer]

Why can't religioners get their stories straight and not contradict themselves?

I don't get it.

The unchanging Word of God sure is hard to nail down

 

[Demonslayer]

A rotten apple is still an apple, no matter how one tries to deny it.

In all my days of seeing religious folks trotting out the No True Scotsman argument, this is my favorite response ever.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It's my own made up "Southern-ism", LOL.

 

[Thanda]

Some people are sheep, others are wolves, and then there are sheepdogs. I am a sheepdog.

Uh, okay

Can you name one source that is not the Bible, that corroborates the Jesus story? Sorry, but I don't rely on a collection of contradicting, handpicked "books" that have anonymous authors, were written decades after the fact and contain no eyewitness accounts.

Why would I have to? My faith in the Bible is as a result of my faith in God. It is through him that I know it is true. Is there a a greater witness than God?

I would marry them as that is their legal right. They choose the time/date/location. If that happens to be in a church, so be it. If they both believe in God and want It mentioned, so be it.

Again it appears that you really don't have as much of a problem with a gay lifestyle as you pretend to. If you are even willing to do it by the name of God then you can't really think it is such a bad thing. Again I say it appears your separation of church and state sermon was very irrelevant considering your faith and the state don't seem to have much of a disagreement over this issue.

Oh, and how exactly do you know that God is a "he"? Does God have male genitalia? Have you ever seen it? Is there a picture of God somewhere that confirms that not only is It human-like, but that It has a gender? You might want to start thinking for yourself instead of blindly accepting what some male chauvinists wrote thousands of years ago, in a culture that thinks women don't deserve an education, and only want them barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

I couldn't care less what genitalia God turned out to have or not have. It really doesn't play any role in my spiritual life.

 

[Berserk]

Neo-Deist: Can you name one source that is not the Bible, that corroborates the Jesus story? Sorry, but I don't rely on a collection of contradicting, handpicked "books" that have anonymous authors, were written decades after the fact and contain no eyewitness accounts.

To educate yourself on this question, see the Connection with Eyewitness testimony thread.

 

[Thanda]

When did he say that God disapproves? AFAICT, Neo Deist only said that he personally disapproves.

And not that the Bible has to be the authority here, but I'm surprised that a Christian such as yourself wouldn't appreciate the message in Romans 14:


"Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions. 2 One person believes in eating everything, but the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not despise the one who does not, and the one who abstains must not judge the one who eats everything, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on another’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person regards one day holier than other days, and another regards them all alike. Each must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day does it for the Lord. The one who eats, eats for the Lord because he gives thanks to God, and the one who abstains from eating abstains for the Lord, and he gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for himself and none dies for himself. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that he may be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 But you who eat vegetables only—why do you judge your brother or sister? And you who eat everything—why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.11 For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord,every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.”12 Therefore, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13 Therefore we must not pass judgment on one another, but rather determine never to place an obstacle or a trap before a brother or sister. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean in itself; still, it is unclean to the one who considers it unclean.

The fact that you're weak enough in the faith that you feel you need to abstain from homosexuality to honour God in your way doesn't mean that you should put a stumbling block in front of someone who feels they can honour God with their same-sex marriage.

Nice try. Neo Deo posted this thread in the religious debates section. He wanted to have a debate over the subject and I complied. I have not placed a stumbling block between him and his God. If he is fully convinced in his mind that what he is doing is right then it will be well with him. But he has indicated here that those of us who disagree with his position are, Ï quote, "self centered, egotistical, holier-than-thou, discriminating, two-faced, ******* of ...human being". It appears then that it is not I who is judging or putting a stumbling block before another.

Furthermore his opening post referenced the separation of church and state. What purpose would that reference have had if his belief that gay people were living a bad lifestyle was only a personal belief rather than a religious one?

 

[Neo Deist]

Neo-Deist: Can you name one source that is not the Bible, that corroborates the Jesus story? Sorry, but I don't rely on a collection of contradicting, handpicked "books" that have anonymous authors, were written decades after the fact and contain no eyewitness accounts.

To educate yourself on this question, see the Connection with Eyewitness testimony thread.

I don't need to educate myself on that topic. There's not a single eyewitness to Jesus that wrote any of the gospels.

 

[Neo Deist]

Why would I have to? My faith in the Bible is as a result of my faith in God. It is through him that I know it is true. Is there a a greater witness than God?

In other words, "no, I can't find a single source outside of the Bible. I rely on hearsay and base my belief off of that."

You'd think that since Jesus performed miracles and such in the middle of the Roman Empire, that a Roman soldier/noble/historian at some point would have taken notice, and made a reference to it. But there's not one single documented incident, other than a small notation that Jesus was crucified by order of Pilate.

Sorry, but I live in the real world.

Now, before you get your panties in a wad, I do believe that Jesus existed. I have no problem with him teaching about morality, loving God, loving people, etc. I actually follow his teachings on those subjects. But once you cross that border and delve into the supernatural (virgin birth, God incarnate, resurrection, etc.), you leave realism and enter mysticism.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

We woke up a long time ago to the fact that calling yourself a Christian, when you are behaving in an unchristian way, is the height of hypocrisy.

Evidently the Watch Tower and its lackeys didn't wake up enough to do anything about paedophiles in their ranks beyond covering it up and hiding them.

 

[Thanda]

In other words, "no, I can't find a single source outside of the Bible. I rely on hearsay and base my belief off of that."

You'd think that since Jesus performed miracles and such in the middle of the Roman Empire, that a Roman soldier/noble/historian at some point would have taken notice, and made a reference to it. But there's not one single documented incident, other than a small notation that Jesus was crucified by order of Pilate.

Sorry, but I live in the real world.

Now, before you get your panties in a wad, I do believe that Jesus existed. I have no problem with him teaching about morality, loving God, loving people, etc. I actually follow his teachings on those subjects. But once you cross that border and delve into the supernatural (virgin birth, God incarnate, resurrection, etc.), you leave realism and enter mysticism.

You may one day come to understand that those things which seems mystical and supernatural to you are actually more real that what you consider to be the physical reality.

But anyway I see we have deviated from the subject of your post. So unless you wish to address my direct arguments about your OP I think we should call it a day.

 

[Neo Deist]

You may one day come to understand that those things which seems mystical and supernatural to you are actually more real that what you consider to be the physical reality.

But anyway I see we have deviated from the subject of your post. So unless you wish to address my direct arguments about your OP I think we should call it a day.

I did address your "arguments." You just fail to understand.

 

[Deeje]

So much for Matthew 19:26.

I'll see your Matthew 19:26 and raise you Matthew 19:12.

 

[Deeje]

But you said there were no Christians who were drug addicts. Are there also no Christians who are divorced for reasons other than infidelity?

NO. I said there were no JW's who were 'continuing' drug addicts or alcoholics who refused to try and overcome their addictions. IOW we do not tolerate those who just want to do things their way. There is no place for those who throw up their hands and say "I can't help it"....that is because Jehovah can help it if you really want him to.

Jehovah's people are to be "clean"...morally, spiritually and physically. There are no exceptions because God makes the rules.

 

[Neo Deist]

NO. I said there were no JW's who were 'continuing' drug addicts or alcoholics who refused to try and overcome their addictions. IOW we do not tolerate those who just want to do things their way. There is no place for those who throw up their hands and say "I can't help it"....that is because Jehovah can help it if you really want him to.

Jehovah's people are to be "clean"...morally, spiritually and physically. There are no exceptions because God makes the rules.

Translation: people that need help and support, we drop them like a bad habit and leave them to suffer alone, because we are the superior religious species.

So much for love God, love people.

 

[Berserk]

I There's not a single eyewitness to Jesus that wrote any of the gospels.

Please learn to read carefully. I said, "Connections to the eyewitnesses" thread, which is almost as compelling.

 

[savagewind]

NO. I said there were no JW's who were 'continuing' drug addicts or alcoholics who refused to try and overcome their addictions.

There will be no JWs who are discovered sinning. There are plenty practicing secret sin.

 

[savagewind]

Jehovah's people are to be "clean"...morally, spiritually and physically. There are no exceptions because God makes the rules.

There are exceptions. There was a JW family that lived in a disgustingly dirty house. It was the worst living conditions that I have ever seen, but for some reason they were not disfellowshipped. In the same congregation was the daughter of an elder who had a child out of wedlock and she did not get disfellowshipped.

On the other hand, I have heard about a man who got disfellowshipped for eating a meal with a friend who was disfellowshipped.

 

[Neo Deist]

Please learn to read carefully. I said, "Connections to the eyewitnesses" thread, which is almost as compelling.

Please learn what hearsay is.

I did read it. No matter how you try and spin it, if the writers were not eyewitnesses, then it is hearsay. It does not matter if they lived with an eyewitness for 20 years and repeated their story verbatim.

The fact remains that the Gospel writers were NOT eyewitnesses. Period. End of story. Game over. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Humans have a tendency to embellish a story that they heard with their own additions, in order to make the story bigger, better or give it a "WOW!" factor.

 

[Berserk]

Please learn what hearsay is.

I did read it. No matter how you try and spin it, if the writers were not eyewitnesses, then it is hearsay. It does not matter if they lived with an eyewitness for 20 years and repeated their story verbatim.

The fact remains that the Gospel writers were NOT eyewitnesses. Period. End of story. Game over. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Humans have a tendency to embellish a story that they heard with their own additions, in order to make the story bigger, better or give it a "WOW!" factor.

So anything your wife says she heard your friend say or saw him/ her doing, you dismiss as hearsay, until you can confirm it directly? After all, your wife ":hasa tendency to embellish a story," so why should you just take her at her word?