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Would you marry a gay couple...

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
The law says you have to marry gay people?

And you say your personal beliefs are BS?

No, the law says they have the right to be married, and I am not a self centered, egotistical, holier-than-thou, discriminating, two-faced, ******* of a human being, so therefore I would marry them.

I have to set aside my personal disapproval of gay couples and extent the same courtesies to them as I would anyone else. Didn't Jesus tell us to love God, love people? No where does it say to love people, as long as they are like you and agree with you. If they are different, screw 'em!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What about the ~50% of Christians who are divorced. Are they not really Christians?

Well seeing as how divorce is permitted on the grounds of a mate's infidelity, perhaps the ones who divorce on any other grounds could be in trouble with the Creator. He made the rules.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Funnily enough, most of those horrendous acts were perpetrated by my first husband. I was thrown into furniture, walls, choked, had blades put to my chest and throat and so much more. Why do I say "funnily enough"? Because my husband came from a "godly" JW family. His very devout JW mother hated me. She defended her son's actions. I was the bad one. I shouldn't have said anything about it. I was wrong for even trying to defend myself and I smeared his good name by telling anyone. He threatened to kill me, seemed to try a couple times. Attempted to kidnap my daughter, even got his mother in on it. So, according to your beliefs I should have just suffered then. I should not have divorced a man likely to kill me. I should not have been free to find happiness in my life. To Hell with my life, my happiness, my right to be loved in my life. See, just yet another reason to chuck those beliefs, those scriptures and the "God" they supposedly speak for.

This is a sad story, but I have heard about such things before. :(

May I ask first of all, what your husband's religious status was with the Witnesses? Was he ever baptized or had he broken ties with JW's having never made a commitment to God? By your description, this man was certainly NOT cut out to be a Christian. NOTHING could justify his treatment of you, even if you were the worst wife on earth...there is no excuse for that kind of behavior.....not even for those who are NOT Christians.

As for his mother....what can I say? Did she ever witness her son's behavior? Did she see what he did to you? Did you retaliate and do him harm as well?

No genuine Witness of Jehovah, no matter how much they might harbor animosity towards their children's choice of a mate, would ever justify that kind of conduct. Aiding and abetting a kidnapping is also not something a Witness would do, unless of course they believed that the child's life was in danger. Even then it would be done through the proper authorities. We are not free to take the law into our own hands.
I have grave concerns for her spiritual status if what you say is true.....but on the other hand, I am hearing only one side of a story. The internet is full of these sorts of accounts and embellishments and justifications are sure to creep in, making the whole episode very lop-sided. I am glad that judges in court have to hear both sides in order to make a judgment.

Now, according to our (JW) beliefs, which are always scriptural and pertain to us as a collective body in the world, people outside of our faith may take a different stance, watering down God's requirements to suit a change in the world's standards. We won't do that. In your situation, you were perfectly within your rights to leave him. A violent relationship between parents is psychologically damaging to children, so I am wondering how long your child was subjected to this domestic violence? It sets children up to continue the abuse in their own relationships. We program our children often without any verbal instruction on our part...our actions speak way louder than our words.

If one is going to call themselves "Christian", there is no room for shelving God's laws to suit ourselves. They are non-negotiable and the Bible's recommendation is to wait and to to choose a mate very carefully....remembering that this is for life. Without God in a marriage, there is scope for so many problems to get out of hand....and no one source to turn to for the solutions.

I am not the judge of what happened to you because I only have one side of the story. It would be interesting to hear it from the other side, just to balance things out.

God knows the whole truth about everyone and is not swayed by any tears or accusations of foul play....He will judge each individual according to the truth of the matter. We can count on that.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You do realize the response you are going to get right? Those people weren't "real" JWs. "Real" Christians, "real" JWs, would never do such things. So anyone who does is just not one of them. Seen this "argument" time and time again. I fully expect it. Especially in regards to my ex and his family.

Again, I remind you that we are only hearing one very damning side of a story here. Certainly not enough to make a judgment call on anyone. We can leave that to Jesus.

I might also remind you that calling yourself a Christian and actually behaving and living like one, are two entirely different things. Calling yourself a JW when your conduct is anything but, means that you aren't really a servant of God in your heart. Jehovah will see to it that unrepentant wrongdoers do not stay in our congregations.

Anyone can call themselves whatever they like, but unless they live up to the criteria set out in the Bible for Christians, they cannot claim to be footstep followers of Christ without being total hypocrites. Does that mean we have to be perfect? No way! That is impossible, but it does mean that we don't stop trying. Failure only happens when we stop trying.

We have recovering drug addicts and alcoholics in our midst who are still trying hard to do something about their dependence. With God's help, many of them succeed in staying clean. But there are no Witnesses who just indulge their habits as if God doesn't see what they do. Unless they are trying hard not to relapse, we disfellowship them. It isn't about success so much as attitude towards the wrongdoing. They have no excuse to relapse if they are relying on the strength God provides. Relying on ourselves leads to failure.

We encourage continuing substance abusers to get professional help and to come back when they have succeeded in conquering their addiction. With God, all things are possible when we get our strength from him. God is more powerful than any addiction and he knows what caused the problem in the first place. The majority of drug and alcohol abusers are self medicating depressives.
Depressive illness has always been with us...but today it is epidemic. :(
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Just because he said male and female, which is the predominate combination, does not preclude same sex. Omission =/= exclusion.

Well, since the reason for sex and marriage in the first place is to produce a family, that is not naturally possible with same sex couples. They cannot bear children without the aid of a third party. A third party in a marriage makes for technical adultery. And since same sex couples cannot legally "marry" (in most places) their sexual relationship fits the Biblical definition of fornication. This word covers unlawful sex in any gender.

It gets sticky when you want to fiddle with the rules. o_O
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
Well seeing as how divorce is permitted on the grounds of a mate's infidelity, perhaps the ones who divorce on any other grounds could be in trouble with the Creator. He made the rules.

But you said there were no Christians who were drug addicts. Are there also no Christians who are divorced for reasons other than infidelity?
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I think you need to have a good look around you and see exactly what man's thinking has done "in" the world and "to" it. At what cost did man achieve his ambitions?

That doesn't discount what I said. We've still advanced farther than we would have if God hadn't entrapped Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden and doomed us all for their sins. If they had obeyed God they wouldn't have known right from wrong and we wouldn't have advanced anywhere.


In improving his lifespan has he given him a better old age? We might be living longer...but are we living better?

We're living better than we were 100 years ago. The number of wars has decreased and we're overall healthier - well, we in the West generally are.


Sometimes I think the dementia epidemic is actually a blessing. :(

I'm going to do my best to ignore the fact you just said that.


How does man solve the problems of this world, when man IS the problem?

By recognising the mistakes we've made and by acting to either rectifying them or at the very least, refrain from repeating them. Things like the campaign for renewable energy are the result of us realising that our mistakes (in this case that would be the industrial revolution) have left an indelibly bad imprint on the world - in terms of affect on the climate, on other lifeforms (our own species and others) and on the planet's natural resources.


God at least offers some hope for the future....man offers us nothing but more of the same. Things are getting worse by the minute.....who has the solutions? Seriously. :rolleyes:

Hahaha, good one. God (according to your religion) will save a select few and let the rest of us lie dead forever - and that's probably the kinder version of the afterlife compared to eternal torture. Humanity recognises and at the very least attempts to solve the problems we create. God does jack. The Bible was written by iron age people who had a significantly poorer understanding of the world than we do - and your translation is written by a cult who just want control over people. Neither of which gives your cult the qualification to tell us how we should be running the world.
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
Well, since the reason for sex and marriage in the first place is to produce a family

Where does it say the reason for sex and marriage is to produce a family? Is an infertile woman not supposed to enjoy sex or marry the man she loves?

Because God sees fit to bless 6% of all women with total infertility. Can't these gals find love and comfort and joy and pleasure in sex and marriage, despite their inability to bear children?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, since the reason for sex and marriage in the first place is to produce a family, that is not naturally possible with same sex couples.

Your argument is old, tired, and bogus. Senior citizens and infertile couples can't produce children either.

Move along, folks, nothing to see...
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
No, the law says they have the right to be married, and I am not a self centered, egotistical, holier-than-thou, discriminating, two-faced, ******* of a human being, so therefore I would marry them.

Okay, firstly I'm not sure why you keep making a point of saying how terrible people are who don't agree with your position - it isn't a sign of the love of God to judge others the way you are clearly doing.

I have to set aside my personal disapproval of gay couples and extent the same courtesies to them as I would anyone else. Didn't Jesus tell us to love God, love people? No where does it say to love people, as long as they are like you and agree with you. If they are different, screw 'em!

Setting aside your personal disapproval and assisting someone to commit sin are two vastly different things. Not everything that is lawful in the world is moral to do. Can you name one person whom Jesus assisted to commit a sin? Can you name one time when Jesus said we should assist others to legitimize their sins or their sinful lifestyles?

And when you marry gay people, do you do it as a purely legal rite or do you do it as a religious rite. Because if you do it as a religious rite (i.e. you make mention of God during the ceremony) then are you not dragging God's name into something you yourself believe he disapproves of?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
And when you marry gay people, do you do it as a purely legal rite or do you do it as a religious rite. Because if you do it as a religious rite (i.e. you make mention of God during the ceremony) then are you not dragging God's name into something you yourself believe he disapproves of?
When did he say that God disapproves? AFAICT, Neo Deist only said that he personally disapproves.

And not that the Bible has to be the authority here, but I'm surprised that a Christian such as yourself wouldn't appreciate the message in Romans 14:


"Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions. 2 One person believes in eating everything, but the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not despise the one who does not, and the one who abstains must not judge the one who eats everything, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on another’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person regards one day holier than other days, and another regards them all alike. Each must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day does it for the Lord. The one who eats, eats for the Lord because he gives thanks to God, and the one who abstains from eating abstains for the Lord, and he gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for himself and none dies for himself. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that he may be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 But you who eat vegetables only—why do you judge your brother or sister? And you who eat everything—why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.11 For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord,every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.”12 Therefore, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13 Therefore we must not pass judgment on one another, but rather determine never to place an obstacle or a trap before a brother or sister. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean in itself; still, it is unclean to the one who considers it unclean.


The fact that you're weak enough in the faith that you feel you need to abstain from homosexuality to honour God in your way doesn't mean that you should put a stumbling block in front of someone who feels they can honour God with their same-sex marriage.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
You can be gay OR a Christian, but you can't be both without ignoring a lot of what Christ taught. I hasten to add that gays are not precluded from becoming Christians, but they cannot practice same sex and remain innocent in God's eyes.

Wait, how are you backing this up? Would the same hold for heterosexuals as well based on what you are saying Jesus taught?
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Yes. Often people can have very unrealistic ideas about what it means to be "married". They get carried away with the expensive fairytale wedding and the "happily ever afters" and forget that they are the blending of two very imperfect people. The Bible's advice works because it tells us to concentrate on the qualities of the person we are contemplating spending the rest of our lives with. As well as the qualities of the person, it is also forbidden to "try before you buy" in this arrangement. No sex before marriage means that this factor is not the one determining whether a person will make a good life partner. Being 'good in bed' can sometimes blind a person to bad characteristics that may surface later and destroy the bond. The Bible recommends a three way marriage...a husband, a wife and the one who "yoked" them together. If both see their roles clearly, as outlined in the Bible, and each one keeps to their assigned role, the marriage will last because God is at the center of it. Each will put the other's needs ahead of their own.

It'll be interesting if you get to what Jesus taught.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Well, since the reason for sex and marriage in the first place is to produce a family, that is not naturally possible with same sex couples. They cannot bear children without the aid of a third party. A third party in a marriage makes for technical adultery. And since same sex couples cannot legally "marry" (in most places) their sexual relationship fits the Biblical definition of fornication. This word covers unlawful sex in any gender.

It gets sticky when you want to fiddle with the rules. o_O

It is not possible with sterile heterosexual couples who know to be sterile, either. What about couples who are not interested, in the slightest, to have kids? Would you forbid marriage to people with down syndrome?

Now what?

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
. With God, all things are possible when we get our strength from him.

There is a mountain in front of my flat that prevents me from having a beautiful view on the lake of Lucerne.

Can you please teleport it to the Sahara desert or to Timbuktu for me, please. Assuming you get your strength from God, obviously.

Ciao

- viole
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Not everything that is lawful in the world is moral to do.

Some people are sheep, others are wolves, and then there are sheepdogs. I am a sheepdog.

Can you name one person whom Jesus assisted to commit a sin? Can you name one time when Jesus said we should assist others to legitimize their sins or their sinful lifestyles?

Can you name one source that is not the Bible, that corroborates the Jesus story? Sorry, but I don't rely on a collection of contradicting, handpicked "books" that have anonymous authors, were written decades after the fact and contain no eyewitness accounts.

And when you marry gay people, do you do it as a purely legal rite or do you do it as a religious rite. Because if you do it as a religious rite (i.e. you make mention of God during the ceremony) then are you not dragging God's name into something you yourself believe he disapproves of?

I would marry them as that is their legal right. They choose the time/date/location. If that happens to be in a church, so be it. If they both believe in God and want It mentioned, so be it.

Oh, and how exactly do you know that God is a "he"? Does God have male genitalia? Have you ever seen it? Is there a picture of God somewhere that confirms that not only is It human-like, but that It has a gender? You might want to start thinking for yourself instead of blindly accepting what some male chauvinists wrote thousands of years ago, in a culture that thinks women don't deserve an education, and only want them barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.
 

Berserk

Member
As we speak, the United Methodist church(UMC) is having their General Conference in Portland. The issue of gay marriage comes up every 4 years that the conference is held and is always voted down. Like other U. S. mainline denominations, the American UMC is in slow decline By contrast, there is a great United Methodist revival in Africa and other countries and thus an ever increasing number of church delegates to vote at General Conference. Gay marriage would likely be approved if this conference just involved Americans. But it is a global conference and the international delegates from an ever growing church always see to it that gay marriage gets voted down. So as a retired UMC minister, I'm not permitted to perform gay marriage. Renegade UMC pastors have performed gay marriages in recent years in defiance of our Book of Discipline, to which they hypocritically swear to obey. The American rebels should just refuse to abide by the Book of Discipline, if they insist on performing gay marriage. The clash between the international UMC churches and its American counterpart will inevitably split the church. The seeds of this inevitable split will be sown at this conference. Goggle "United Methodist General Conference live and you will be able to watch the debate live on this issue, which will involve several debates over various petitions in the next few days.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I am an ordained minister, I live in the USA, and I grew up as a very conservative Southern Baptist in Alabama. Knowing that...

I was recently asked if I would ever marry a gay couple. My answer was, YES. The person that asked me that was taken back by my lack of hesitation in my answer. They could not believe what they just heard.

After they recovered from the initial shock, they asked "why?" This was my answer:

In this country, there is a separation of Church and State. The government (State) can't dictate to the Church how it is to be run, what to believe, or who can serve in a clergy-capacity. By the same token, the Church can't dictate the law to the government, regardless of what the issues might be.

I went on to explain that not everyone in this country is a Christian, so why should everyone be subject to Christian "law?" The US Constitution grants rights to all of its citizens, regardless of race, gender, religious beliefs or sexual orientation. Gays have the exact same rights as everyone else, and that includes being married.

That person was speechless. I added that I personally do not agree with a gay lifestyle, but it is not my place to discriminate or judge. To each their own in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

At that point they tried to make some type of come back and the best they could was to mutter something about children seeing two guys kissing in public. While I understand the confusion that might cause in a child, I actually can't recall a time that I have seen that happen. If it does, I will deal with it in my own way with regard to my children.

The last thing they mentioned was how gay men would be sexually abusive to children. I stopped them right there and explained that there is a HUGE difference between being gay and being a pedophile. People can be gay and have no attraction to children what-so-ever.

They walked off.


Is it a sin to collaborate with sinners?

This Christian sure thinks so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Davis_(county_clerk)

Why can't religioners get their stories straight and not contradict themselves?

I don't get it.
 
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