Would you marry a gay couple...

[Deeje]

I was "saved" at the age of to include baptism. I spent 30 years as a Christian. There are those that believe in eternal security, and according to them I am indeed a Christian.

Is that a "once saved always saved" kinda deal? Sorry I don't subscribe to that. (Matthew 24:13; 2 Peter 2:20-22)

At least I have the courage to serve. I don't hide behind "God's law" in order to avoid noble service.

In whose eyes is it noble? In what ways are the political squabbles over a piece of land or coveted resources a reason to kill? (Matthew 26:52)

And since when do I, as a police officer, kill people when "I am told to"? I have been a cop for 12+ years and have yet to fire my pistol/rifle/shotgun at anyone. I work in one of the highest crime rated cities in the country.

I hear that the police in the US are somewhat trigger happy...if you are not one of them, then good for you.
But if you would train to kill someone, (either in the military or the police force) then I guess that demonstrates intent though.....doesn't it?

There is a reason why Hitler used JWs "slaves" around his compounds. He knew you were pacifists and would never do anything against him or the Nazis.

Yes it saved a few of us from the hangman's noose or from the firing squad. (Romans 13:1-2) They knew we would not try to escape, either. (Acts of the Apostles 16:25-34)

The devil? LOL! Once again, we have this archaic notion of some supernatural boogeyman that people can blame all the bad crap on. I guess he is a Jedi Knight, and using his mind tricks on weak minded fools.

LOL, what a clever little devil....he has convinced his minions that he doesn't even exist. Talk about a master of deception.

I believe in God as the creator, who is omnipotent. If this "devil" were truly God's nemesis/arch enemy, God could just snap His divine fingers and un-create the devil, thus saving everyone the trouble.

Yes he could if it were his omnipotence that the devil had challenged. He never did...what he questioned was God's way of exercising his power and rulership. He claimed that God's way of ruling stifled freedom...that humans were entitled to know what God knew. Was he right? Was a knowledge of evil beneficial for humans to know? Along with a knowledge of evil came evil acts. Within one generation, sin produced the first murderer....look around you.....evil is everywhere and God's way of ruling has been vindicated. Humans are not better off knowing good and evil for themselves. The only way to prove that the devil was a liar was to let him do the ruling. (Luke 4:5-6)
JW'S have upheld the rightful sovereignty of our God...not that of any nation. We did not become friends with the world, (James 4:4) but we did try not to hate our enemies or do them harm.

Holy books are interesting to read in order to broaden one's understanding of world theology. How does God communicate with me? He does not have to. I choose to live a moral life, and I appreciate the beauty of creation that is around me.

A monkey could do that. Every banana is appreciated. But a monkey does not know why he's here or whether or not he will be here tomorrow. He doesn't grapple with issues of morality because he doesn't have a moral sense. He just is......is that what you are?

Did he leave us on our own? If you believe in free will (I do), then yes, He did. That is not to say that God can't be saddened by poor choices or tragedy. God is the ultimate example of "standing by your convictions."

I do believe in free will, but not total freedom to do as you please.....that is called anarchy. No one benefits from chaos. We all have to answer to someone at the end of the day.
Who do you answer to?

Do you know what causes the most trouble on this planet? Organized religion.

And do you know who 'organized' those religions...humans with free will....the ones who thought it meant freedom to do whatever you like. There was no religion in the garden of Eden.

It is very likely that we worship the same God. You just put a bunch of man made drivel that was written thousands of years ago, into the equation.

I'm sorry but the god you worship sounds like a loser with no purpose to me. What kind of loving God puts his children in a park and then deserts them without a word?

The God I worship has a name and a personality. He has revealed himself in his written word, as well as in his creation. He has preserved his instruction to humankind down through the centuries, setting out guidelines for humans to follow whilst he settles the issues raised in Eden.
He has stated his reasons for the current world conditions as he allows us to answer the devil back by standing our ground in loyalty to our Creator despite all attempts by his minions to slander him and take us off course.

As a JW, you have no room to talk about taking the Bible out of context. The NWT is the most paraphrased, "we want it to say THIS" translation in existence.

Who told you that? Please provide examples of where the NWT is in error and we will show you why it isn't and compare it with other accepted translations.

The commandment is "thou shall not murder." God even commanded the Israelites to kill (wage war). What you call nationalism, I call patriotism.

Is that what you think the Israelites were? Patriots? You seem to forget that Israel's land was gifted to them by the one who owns the whole planet. It was a choice piece of real estate and foreign nations had their eye on it. Israel was permitted to defend their God-given land from foreign invasion, but I don't recall God giving any other part of the earth to anyone else.....do you? Seems to me like most of them stole it from others who were there first. What does that make them?

Israel's wars were sanctioned by God, but nationalistic wars fought over political ideologies, oil or other resources, can hardly be the something approved by God. Do you think God would sanction wars initiated by thieves because of greed for more land, wealth and power?

My God, is God the creator.

Your god is not MY Creator.

I am a deist. Deism is not a religion; it is a philosophy. I serve no man made religion, full of its biases and discriminations.

Amazing how a label seems to make something sound more important than it actually is......I wonder if it is important to God though?
The Bible tells us to discriminate between good an bad. It even tells us to hate what God hates....and he hates what is happening in the world probably more than we do. When it is his time to act, I believe that no one will be left to wonder who is behind it or why he is doing it. (Daniel 2:44)

 

[Deeje]

Wake up to reality. There are plenty of Christians that have emotional/drug/alcohol problems, and they turn violent when their button is pushed. Are you really that naive?

Well no, actually there are no "Christians" in our organization who are drug addicts or who continue to abuse substances once they dedicate their lives to God. If there are emotional issues, (very common today) we would recommend professional counseling and medication depending on the condition. Those who continue to abuse alcohol or drugs cannot stay in our brotherhood. They are helped as much as humanly possible, but they are not tolerated if they make no effort to get on top of their addictions. That is our reality. We woke up a long time ago to the fact that calling yourself a Christian, when you are behaving in an unchristian way, is the height of hypocrisy.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

What a vagelyhumanoid comment.

If you are a Christian...you follow Jesus...if you are not, then do whatever you like. How hard is that to understand? If some Christians think they can follow the world and still remain true to Christ's teachings, I can scripturally say that they are mistaken. You can be gay OR a Christian, but you can't be both without ignoring a lot of what Christ taught. I hasten to add that gays are not precluded from becoming Christians, but they cannot practice same sex and remain innocent in God's eyes. Becoming a "eunuch" for the sake of one's faith is a sacrifice that many have made. (Matt 19:12) It is not life threatening to refrain from having sex. People do it all the time.

If Jesus was prejudiced, then so am I and I make no apology for it. I do not force my views on anyone nor do I lobby for things to be made the law of the land. I stand up for God's law.
What others do is none of my business....what I do, is. Expressing views is what forums are about...NO? I am expressing a view. It is unpopular but it is mine.

ha, seems I have something of a reputation... But in any case, what determines which Biblical commandments still hold and which don't? I'm guessing you're a heterosexual who eats shellfish and wears mixed fabrics, as are most others in your faith. If so, isn't it a little too convenient that the dietary and purity restrictions are somehow lifted but the sexual prohibitions are completely intact? Many Christians before Paul considered their religion to be Judaism and adhered to the Torah. I never chose to be attracted to other males but you could easily stop mixing meat and dairy. I mean, I don't even consume dairy or many other foods for medical reasons.

You can express your views and I can express mine. And I'm not a prickly person, but I have very little patience for notions that people like me are inherently lesser for no rational reason. For someone with your perspective, it's not personal; it's ideological. But from where I'm standing, it will always be both. "People with green eyes are not precluded from becoming Christians, but they cannot take off their contacts in public and remain innocent in God's eyes" - how does that sound? Can a concerned Christian parent kick their 14 year old son out onto the street for having a boyfriend and be innocent in God's eyes?

 

[Thanda]

I am he, that you responded to.

I am a deist, not a hardcore, Bible thumping, conservative, Southern Baptist. My belief in God has nothing to do with man made holy texts, that were written thousands of years ago in a region that is known to be male chauvinistic, and full of supernatural nonsense. Welcome to the 21st century!

Then your separation of church and state argument was actually irrelevant then. So why did you bring it up?

 

[Deeje]

ha, seems I have something of a reputation... But in any case, what determines which Biblical commandments still hold and which don't? I'm guessing you're a heterosexual who eats shellfish and wears mixed fabrics, as are most others in your faith. If so, isn't it a little too convenient that the dietary and purity restrictions are somehow lifted but the sexual prohibitions are completely intact? Many Christians before Paul considered their religion to be Judaism and adhered to the Torah. I never chose to be attracted to other males but you could easily stop mixing meat and dairy. I mean, I don't even consume dairy or many other foods for medical reasons.

If Jesus or his apostles taught it, then we adhere to it. If it was part of the ceremonial or dietary laws to Israel, we are not Jews, so we don't have to observe them. We have no command from Jesus to observe a Sabbath, circumcise our sons or to stick to Jewish festivals and dietary customs.

When a foreigner wanted to worship Israel's God, they had to adopt Jewish laws and their mode of worship. Jews had to treat them as brothers. But foreigners (Gentiles) who became Christians did not have to convert to Judaism first. They simply became followers of the teachings of the Christ, being baptized to publicly acknowledge it.

You can express your views and I can express mine. And I'm not a prickly person, but I have very little patience for notions that people like me are inherently lesser for no rational reason.

What do you mean "people like me"? I have no idea who you are.

For someone with your perspective, it's not personal; it's ideological. But from where I'm standing, it will always be both. "People with green eyes are not precluded from becoming Christians, but they cannot take off their contacts in public and remain innocent in God's eyes" - how does that sound? Can a concerned Christian parent kick their 14 year old son out onto the street for having a boyfriend and be innocent in God's eyes?

Not sure why the conversation has gone in this direction but Christian parents are under no obligation to facilitate a minor's immoral life choices. If the 14 year old child wants to live at home, he has to abide by the house rules. If he wants to pursue an immoral relationship, he can either do it somewhere else, or wait till he is of age and move out on his own. This is God's law. The parable of the prodigal son demonstrates that a child can leave and squander their resources on an immoral lifestyle but when they have run out of options and are ready to show that they made a mistake, and are ready to change their ways, parents will welcome them home. Some have to learn life lessons the hard way. Sad, because they don't have to.

The UN International Rights of the Child Charter guarantees that children have more rights than their parents. In my country a minor can move out of home and in with a drug abuser or a pedophile and the government will support them financially. Its a sick world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I took an oath when I was 18 to uphold and defend the Constitution of the USA. This document is to be interpreted by the Supreme Court, which says gays and lesbians can marry.

However, I took a Noahide Declaration to keep the Seven Laws of Noah. We do not write up marital contracts or prenuptial agreements for same sex marriages. Also I would not actively participate in the ceremony. But how far would I go with this? Would I refuse to sell them wedding cake? Or refuse to witness or attend the ceremony?

The literal command is just I am not to write up any contracts or agreements for a gay or lesbian couple's marriage. I believe some people go hog wild with this. Refusing to sell cake for an event is ridiculous.

I am in contradiction between my religion and politics.

How are they in conflict? You can uphold the constitution by affirming same-sex couples' right to marry. You can uphold your religious beliefs by not marrying a member of the same sex yourself.

Even if your religious beliefs would prevent you from, say, making a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage, you can avoid this situation easily by not making wedding cakes. There are plenty of jobs that don't have anything to do with same-sex marriage; for instance, in all my years as a civil engineer, I've never even been asked to provide any sort of professional service for a same-sex wedding.

Unless you're being forced to be an officiant or wedding cake baker, the only conflict that you'll have to deal with between your religion and your politics is the conflict you create yourself voluntarily.

 

[Demonslayer]

We woke up a long time ago to the fact that calling yourself a Christian, when you are behaving in an unchristian way, is the height of hypocrisy

Well no, actually there are no "Christians" in our organization who are drug addicts

What about the ~50% of Christians who are divorced. Are they not really Christians?

 

[Draka]

O dear.....you are not talking about Christians here are you? No Christian would treat a wife or husband that way. You are speaking about people who have no thought about how their mate views their conduct, let alone God.

A Christian who might be married to an unbeliever and experiences such things has choices...they can leave such an abusive relationship but they are not free to divorce and remarry unless their mate commits adultery. Usually when a man has those tendencies, a wife does not have to wait long for her release. She just needs proof of his infidelity.

No one says she has to stay and take violent abuse.

Funnily enough, most of those horrendous acts were perpetrated by my first husband. I was thrown into furniture, walls, choked, had blades put to my chest and throat and so much more. Why do I say "funnily enough"? Because my husband came from a "godly" JW family. His very devout JW mother hated me. She defended her son's actions. I was the bad one. I shouldn't have said anything about it. I was wrong for even trying to defend myself and I smeared his good name by telling anyone. He threatened to kill me, seemed to try a couple times. Attempted to kidnap my daughter, even got his mother in on it. So, according to your beliefs I should have just suffered then. I should not have divorced a man likely to kill me. I should not have been free to find happiness in my life. To Hell with my life, my happiness, my right to be loved in my life. See, just yet another reason to chuck those beliefs, those scriptures and the "God" they supposedly speak for.

 

[Demonslayer]

Funnily enough, most of those horrendous acts were perpetrated by my first husband. I was thrown into furniture, walls, choked, had blades put to my chest and throat and so much more. Why do I say "funnily enough"? Because my husband came from a "godly" JW family. His very devout JW mother hated me. She defended her son's actions. I was the bad one. I shouldn't have said anything about it.

It's not all that surprising when you consider the concept of Original Sin. If we go to hell or suffer or have bad things happen to us, its OUR fault for being sinners. Even though God could prevent all this pain, he doesn't because we deserve it.

I hear this all the time when religious folks try to answer for why God would allow pain and suffering and wide-spread starvation. They say it's our fault God is heaping down all this misery on us. We're so awful and constantly misuse our free will to do things that anger God, that God is just and righteous in striking back at us! It's all our fault!

We're all God's battered spouses. Makes sense that the very devout would use the same justification in their personal lives.

He threatened to kill me, seemed to try a couple times. Attempted to kidnap my daughter, even got his mother in on it.

Damn! Good for you getting the hell out of there.

 

[Neo Deist]

Well no, actually there are no "Christians" in our organization who are drug addicts or who continue to abuse substances once they dedicate their lives to God.

1. A neighbor that lived by my parents was an elder or whatever you call it in the JWs. His 14 year old daughter got pregnant. They kicked him out of "eldership" and shunned that whole family.
2. A secretary for one of our captains is a JW, and has gone to rehab for alcoholism 3x now in 12 years.

I am so glad that you speak for the rest of the world and personally know every single JW, and can say they do not abuse drugs or alcohol.

 

[Neo Deist]

The JW elders tend to treat their members like mushrooms...keep them in the dark and feed them a bunch of crap.

 

[Neo Deist]

Then your separation of church and state argument was actually irrelevant then. So why did you bring it up?

It is not irrelevant, it is the law. I am a minister that does not agree with a gay lifestyle, but I would marry a gay couple because that is their right. I have to set my personal BS aside. Very simple.

 

[Jainarayan]

Matt 19:4-6:
Jesus said....“Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart."

God would never "yoke" together a same sex couple. Marriage mates must be "male and female".

Just because he said male and female, which is the predominate combination, does not preclude same sex. Omission =/= exclusion.

 

[Draka]

1. A neighbor that lived by my parents was an elder or whatever you call it in the JWs. His 14 year old daughter got pregnant. They kicked him out of "eldership" and shunned that whole family.
2. A secretary for one of our captains is a JW, and has gone to rehab for alcoholism 3x now in 12 years.

I am so glad that you speak for the rest of the world and personally know every single JW, and can say they do not abuse drugs or alcohol.

You do realize the response you are going to get right? Those people weren't "real" JWs. "Real" Christians, "real" JWs, would never do such things. So anyone who does is just not one of them. Seen this "argument" time and time again. I fully expect it. Especially in regards to my ex and his family.

 

[Neo Deist]

You do realize the response you are going to get right? Those people weren't "real" JWs. "Real" Christians, "real" JWs, would never do such things. So anyone who does is just not one of them. Seen this "argument" time and time again. I fully expect it. Especially in regards to my ex and his family.

I know. I just laugh at them.

 

[Demonslayer]

Those people weren't "real" JWs. "Real" Christians, "real" JWs, would never do such things. So anyone who does is just not one of them. Seen this "argument" time and time again. I fully expect it.

This is commonly known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. It's a favorite among the religious.

 

[McBell]

This is commonly known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. It's a favorite among the religious.

Especially among those who think/believe they are special because of their beliefs.
Of course, theists do not hold a monopoly on the special/superior attitude.

 

[Demonslayer]

Of course, theists do not hold a monopoly on the special/superior attitude.

You're right, I'm an atheist and I'm very special and superior to most!

 

[Thanda]

It is not irrelevant, it is the law. I am a minister that does not agree with a gay lifestyle, but I would marry a gay couple because that is their right. I have to set my personal BS aside. Very simple.

The law says you have to marry gay people?

And you say your personal beliefs are BS?

 

[Thanda]

How are they in conflict? You can uphold the constitution by affirming same-sex couples' right to marry. You can uphold your religious beliefs by not marrying a member of the same sex yourself.

Even if your religious beliefs would prevent you from, say, making a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage, you can avoid this situation easily by not making wedding cakes. There are plenty of jobs that don't have anything to do with same-sex marriage; for instance, in all my years as a civil engineer, I've never even been asked to provide any sort of professional service for a same-sex wedding.

Unless you're being forced to be an officiant or wedding cake baker, the only conflict that you'll have to deal with between your religion and your politics is the conflict you create yourself voluntarily.

I'm glad someone sees my point.