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Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This thread (unless I'm completely wrong) is devoted to pitting science against spirituality -- not particularly the structures of religion/churchgoing. Are we better off with science or with spiritual awareness, in other words.

Depending on how one defines "spiritual awareness", science either can or can't take care of that. For instance, Sam Harris advocates for a "science of spirituality". A scientific study of human spirituality. I'm not sure that's entirely possible, but I bet such a study could go further than we might suppose at first.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
....Science can study that aspect of humanity. Science can define it. Science can't live the experience of it, though. When science studies the holistics of humanity, it's approaching spirituality. But it will never be spirituality until it engages us.
As science advances, by asking questions and then seeking out the answers via verifiable testing, more and more things that you consider "spiritual" become simply more pieces of knowledge. Many things of the past that were considered the venue of ghosts, spiritualists, and magic are now accurately understood as the very natural phenomena that they always have been.

You have a pretty warped and very narrow sense of what religion is and does. Religion affirms our acceptance as whole human beings. Religion declares nothing except what is true for us. It creates space for questions and the mystery of human life. Religion doesn't have all the answers -- and doesn't particularly seek answers. But it does seek to ask questions.
Religions are written, codified beliefs; usually pertaining to features of life and the universe that are not yet understood. Sometimes they guess right: most of the time they are proven wrong, but their incumbant ministries usually cause human suffering before "giving up the ghost". ;)
By being a written word on subjects that are not understood, religion is self-defined as completely static. It creates no space.....and it invarably leaves its own questions unanswered.
Thank goodness for those who delve beyond the constraints of codified rules and dictates of the world's religions. :candle: :candle:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Depending on how one defines "spiritual awareness", science either can or can't take care of that. For instance, Sam Harris advocates for a "science of spirituality". A scientific study of human spirituality. I'm not sure that's entirely possible, but I bet such a study could go further than we might suppose at first.
I think it's a false dichotomy. Science and spirituality are not at opposite ends of a spectrum. The science it took to land us on the moon, for example, ended up being, not only a scientific and technological triumph, but a rather spiritual experience for most of the planet.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think it's a false dichotomy. Science and spirituality are not at opposite ends of a spectrum. The science it took to land us on the moon, for example, ended up being, not only a scientific and technological triumph, but a rather spiritual experience for most of the planet.

I agree with you that the thread sets up a false dichotomy.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
What world would you rather live in? Do we need a balance, or is one more important than the other?

I'd rather live in a world without science....(even though science is a great thing).

Good religion gives you everything you need to be happy.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But there is a lot of BAD religion out there; and those wish to conquer and subjugate the whole world.

*

Correct. The question I was answering wasn't specific enough then.

Evil scientists (like Nazi Scientists) can be bad too.

My point was religion is better at teaching the art of mental peace, harmony and happiness. Science is not so great without those things coming first. Science comes in second.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
For purposes of this thread, religion = spirituality. Those activities are inherently spiritual activities, which means, not only are they unique to religion, they are inherently religious activities. Without religion/spirituality, there would be no self-examination, because that's a spiritual process. There would be no art, because art is a spiritual expression.

You've given "religion" such a broad range of usage that the term becomes meaningless. When we speak of religion, we're thinking of Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, and so on; and in this, the usual sense of the term "religion", it is patently false that art or philosophy are "religious activities".

Indeed, if your claim was true, then referring to "secular philosophy" or "secular art" would be an oxymoron. But it is not, because art is not inherently religious, nor is philosophy.

Yes, it does. If the planet becomes unsustainable
That isn't what "unsustainability" refers to here... Needless to say, worrying about the destruction of the entire planet due to the activities of science is borderline neurotic/delusional. We face no such danger.

Huh?!?! How is Xy "life-denying???" Its very tenets advocate for abundant life.
Christianity is entirely focused on another realm, another life, the will of some otherworldly God- it prioritizes a fictitious world over this life, this world... And worse, Christianity has made war upon the essence of humanity since the beginning, particularly in its depreciation of the body, sex, and sensuality. (but also its attitude towards worldly knowledge and reason, namely disdain)
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Reality check please.

A world without science:
No cars, no roads, no trains, planes, ships, bicycles. No factories. No power plants. No pollution. Yay!
No tractors, no carts, no farming. No food beyond hunting (with a rock and an unsharpened stick) and gathering. No fire making. No fishhooks, no nets. (just your hands, that rock, and that club)
No medicine, no beds, no houses, no huts. [Yes. Even figuring out thatch and leaf roofs is a science. A simple/crude one, but the learning and testing, and tweaking the construction is science.]
No clothing. (Even skins require knapping of stones.)
No domestication of animals. No cheese, no yogurt, no milk (beyond clubbing a mother goat to death and eating the udders with your teeth). :shrug:
No beer. No pizza. No wine. No chocolate. :run:

If we never had science, then humanity would be a small group of brutally short-lived simians, hunting and gathering only in warm regions where we wouldn't freeze to death in the winter.
If we took away all scientific know-how right now. Over 6.9 Billion people would be dead within the year. :sorry1: And the few "lucky" ones just might think every now and then, when not fighting for survival, that some divine grace was what let them be the survivors. :sarcastic

===============================================

A world without religion would be a world filled with atheists and agnostics, living with all the amenities of modern life (likely without nearly as many borders, sexism, homophobia, racism, or just run-of-the-mill intolerance). Good people doing their best to be nice to each other; because we're all in this together; and the only point of our existence is to make the world a better place for our great-great-great-grandchildren. :namaste
 
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Crazyflight

Antitheist-Open to Ideas!
At first glance your post seemed almost sensible, nay, almost reasonable. Then, I stopped and began to read more closely. This last paragraph is almost utter nonsense. You do understand that, right? FTR, our sun CANNOT become a black hole. I know, I know. Science is hard. :facepalm:

Oh, and welcome to RF, given that this was your first post.

Well, I'm sorry - I'm not a scientist, but I'm sorry if that sounded unintelligent. I'm only 14.

I'm sorry if that created any problems. I meant what I said, and the post's meaning still remains the same. Even if our Sun will not become a black hole, Earth will eventually be sucked into a black hole and will create the dense mass that started the Big Bang. That's what I believe.
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Reality check please.

A world without science:
No cars, no roads, no trains, planes, ships, bicycles. No factories. No power plants. No pollution. Yay!
No tractors, no carts, no farming. No food beyond hunting (with a rock and an unsharpened stick) and gathering. No fire making. No fishhooks, no nets. (just your hands, that rock, and that club)
No medicine, no beds, no houses, no huts. [Yes. Even figuring out thatch and leaf roofs is a science. A simple/crude one, but the learning and testing, and tweaking the construction is science.]
No clothing. (Even skins require knapping of stones.)
No domestication of animals. No cheese, no yogurt, no milk (beyond clubbing a mother goat to death and eating the udders with your teeth). :shrug:
No beer. No pizza. No wine. No chocolate. :run:

If we never had science, then humanity would be a small group of brutally short-lived simians, hunting and gathering only in warm regions where we wouldn't freeze to death in the winter.
If we took away all scientific know-how right now. Over 6.9 Billion people would be dead within the year. :sorry1: And the few "lucky" ones just might think every now and then, when not fighting for survival, that some divine grace was what let them be the survivors. :sarcastic

===============================================

A world without religion would be a world filled with atheists and agnostics, living with all the amenities of modern life (likely without nearly as many borders, sexism, homophobia, racism, or just run-of-the-mill intolerance). Good people doing their best to be nice to each other; because we're all in this together; and the only point of our existence is to make the world a better place for our great-great-great-grandchildren. :namaste

Can you stay healthy forever with science.

Can the old become a youth by science,can you prevent aging ?

With trust on God is the salvation and the best choice i think.
 

Crazyflight

Antitheist-Open to Ideas!
Can you stay healthy forever with science.

Can the old become a youth by science,can you prevent aging ?

With trust on God is the salvation and the best choice i think.

I'm sorry, but... Can you stay healthy forever with religion? What kind of question (wait, sorry; it's lacking a question mark, although I will assume that it's a question, rhetorical or not). Trust in God won't get you any of these things, I'm afraid. I'd prefer to use science to eat healthily and help protect my body which would, in turn, help me live longer than any religion would.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Can you stay healthy forever with science.

Can the old become a youth by science,can you prevent aging ?

With trust on God is the salvation and the best choice i think.

What?

Religion can't keep you healthy forever.

Religion can't make the old young, or prevent aging. (And by the way, we are living longer with science.)

So what exactly is your point?

*
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Well, I'm sorry - I'm not a scientist, but I'm sorry if that sounded unintelligent. I'm only 14.

I'm sorry if that created any problems. I meant what I said, and the post's meaning still remains the same. Even if our Sun will not become a black hole, Earth will eventually be sucked into a black hole and will create the dense mass that started the Big Bang. That's what I believe.
Howdy! And welcome to the RF!
Assuming there is enough dark matter to keep the universe from expanding forever. Sure.


Can you stay healthy forever with science.

Can the old become a youth by science,can you prevent aging ?
Eventually, but likely not in our lifetime. :(. Maybe in Crazyflight's....but I'm probably too old to see it.

With trust on God is the salvation and the best choice i think.
Well, at least you hope so. Of course you have no proof. :no: :sorry1: But that's the topic of other threads.

PS - Plus, you are actually advocating for your own (and everyone else's) death on this religious planet of yours.....so you can be more comfortable in the afterlife.....NOT the planet you're actually LIVING on. :sarcastic
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I'm sorry, but... Can you stay healthy forever with religion? What kind of question (wait, sorry; it's lacking a question mark, although I will assume that it's a question, rhetorical or not). Trust in God won't get you any of these things, I'm afraid. I'd prefer to use science to eat healthily and help protect my body which would, in turn, help me live longer than any religion would.

i believe in eternity and happiness afterlife which for you is nonsense.

You think that you came to earth by no plan,just randomness and then after death you'll never exist anymore.

That is the difference between believing in God and believening in nothingness.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
i believe in eternity and happiness afterlife which for you is nonsense.

You think that you came to earth by no plan,just randomness and then after death you'll never exist anymore.

That is the difference between believing in God and believening in nothingness.

As has been said over-and-over; there is no proof of a God. It is your belief that a God exists. It is not a fact.

*
 

Crazyflight

Antitheist-Open to Ideas!
i believe in eternity and happiness afterlife which for you is nonsense.

You think that you came to earth by no plan,just randomness and then after death you'll never exist anymore.

That is the difference between believing in God and believening in nothingness.

Contrary to your belief, unless you were implying something else, I do believe in happiness. However, yes, I do think that belief in an afterlife is nonsense.

No plan? Yes, that's what I believe. You're making it sound like it's ridiculous, which it's not. It's even more ridiculous to think that you have a predetermined "fate" that you eventually have to give in to. Does your god really have a plan for everyone? Even the people who, for their whole life, never see a full meal?
And what is randomness? How is your birth and existence not random, if mine is? Or at least, how I believe it is. I mean, sure, maybe the day that your parents decide they want to have sex (for the intention of having a child, of course) is random. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, maybe they want to try to coordinate it so their child has a summer/winter/etc. birthday, but you see what I mean, right? Oh wait, but God is controlling when they have sex, because it's all in his plan. Gotcha.

I don't believe in nothingness. :no: I just don't believe at all. And I'm against the whole belief in the first place.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Contrary to your belief, unless you were implying something else, I do believe in happiness. However, yes, I do think that belief in an afterlife is nonsense.

No plan? Yes, that's what I believe. You're making it sound like it's ridiculous, which it's not. It's even more ridiculous to think that you have a predetermined "fate" that you eventually have to give in to. Does your god really have a plan for everyone? Even the people who, for their whole life, never see a full meal?
And what is randomness? How is your birth and existence not random, if mine is? Or at least, how I believe it is. I mean, sure, maybe the day that your parents decide they want to have sex (for the intention of having a child, of course) is random. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, maybe they want to try to coordinate it so their child has a summer/winter/etc. birthday, but you see what I mean, right? Oh wait, but God is controlling when they have sex, because it's all in his plan. Gotcha.

I don't believe in nothingness. :no: I just don't believe at all. And I'm against the whole belief in the first place.

You don't believe that you are a soul & body.

You believe that you are just a body,and after death,you are none.:shrug:
 
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