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Wrong to Cheat on Partner?

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Sometimes splits take time.
Why should everyone have to hold off on living
over a piece of paper
that takes time and expense
to nullify.

Because, depending on the state, that particular peice of paper is a legal contract that has legal consequences.

Marriage isn't about relationships or love, it's about the equitable distribution of property and children once the marriage is dissolved.

An extra-marital affair can have dramatic consequences for the distribution of property and custody / visitation rights with children. If at all possible, the offended party will use the affair against the cheating party to great advantage.
 

blackout

Violet.
Because, depending on the state, that particular peice of paper is a legal contract that has legal consequences.

Marriage isn't about relationships or love, it's about the equitable distribution of property and children once the marriage is dissolved.

An extra-marital affair can have dramatic consequences for the distribution of property and custody / visitation rights with children. If at all possible, the offended party will use the affair against the cheating party to great advantage.


This is why I said it would be NICE if everyone acted maturely.

I'm not talking about what people do to screw each other over here,
I'm talking about what is RIGHT.

I don't approve of handing out Scarlet Letters
over pieces of paper.

I am defending the accused. The branded.
Standing up for the hurt and misunderstood.
The ones who dared to follow the letter of heart
instead of the letter of law.

I'm not recommending a course of action
that gives a spiteful spouse recourse with the judge.

I of course would never recommend marriage either.
not the kind with legal documents.

I just hate seeing good people smeared and tagged with the Scarlet A.
And with no attempt even to understand the fulness of the situation.
It's wrong.
It may be real,
but it's wrong.

As a lonely, hurting, trapped, and terribly sex deprived women,
who does not have a pre-divorce affair
for the very reasons you state above,
(and no other)
I cry for mySelf
and all those like me.
Whether they do, or don't.
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation

If the relationship were to the point of decline where there was no more sex,
and there had not been for a significant period of time,
I personally wouldn't care. At all.
Obviously the "romantic" relationship is well over by that point,
and if you're not havin' sex, there's no chance of spreading any diseases.

Sometimes splits take time.
Why should everyone have to hold off on living
over a piece of paper
that takes time and expense
to nullify.


You don't have to wait until you're officially divorced. I don't think anyone's saying that. If you have talked to your partner about it, and it is clear what is going on, that is enough. If they don't like it, you can get a divorce started, but you wouldn't have to wait until that's finalized.

I find it odd that you just wouldn't care. If you've made a commitment to someone, then that should be a big deal. If the relationship is in bad shape and there hasn't been sex for a long time, that doesn't mean you just do what you want. It means you should either try to repair the relationship or break it off. It doesn't mean you can just go out and sleep with other people.
 

*Anne*

Bliss Ninny
If you've made a commitment to someone, then that should be a big deal. If the relationship is in bad shape and there hasn't been sex for a long time, that doesn't mean you just do what you want. It means you should either try to repair the relationship or break it off. It doesn't mean you can just go out and sleep with other people.
I agree with you.

I think, however, there are women who are ~ in Ultra Violet's words ~ "trapped" in a bad marriage due to finances and children.

I'm not saying this excuses infidelity, but I can see how situations differ depending on the circumstances.
 

blackout

Violet.
You don't have to wait until you're officially divorced. I don't think anyone's saying that. If you have talked to your partner about it, and it is clear what is going on, that is enough. If they don't like it, you can get a divorce started, but you wouldn't have to wait until that's finalized.

I find it odd that you just wouldn't care. If you've made a commitment to someone, then that should be a big deal. If the relationship is in bad shape and there hasn't been sex for a long time, that doesn't mean you just do what you want. It means you should either try to repair the relationship or break it off. It doesn't mean you can just go out and sleep with other people.
[/color][/color]

Every situation is unique.

In my own situation I would not care.

I have no idea if my still unfortunately husband
is having sex with anyone or not.
And it doesn't matter to me at all,
except that if he were
he'd probably busy himself less
with antagonizing me,
so I think
it would be a plus all around.

I would be glad for it actually,
though I"m sure he would never admit to it,
all for reasons of "stigma"
and wanting to come off as mr. moral.
*rolls eyes*
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I agree with you.

I think, however, there are women who are ~ in Ultra Violet's words ~ "trapped" in a bad marriage due to finances and children.

I'm not saying this excuses infidelity, but I can see how situations differ depending on the circumstances.

It really doesn't matter. If they're trapped in that bad marriage for those reasons, the way to go is still not to just sleep with other people. The way to go is to discuss it with the spouse.
 

*Anne*

Bliss Ninny
It really doesn't matter. If they're trapped in that bad marriage for those reasons, the way to go is still not to just sleep with other people. The way to go is to discuss it with the spouse.
*nods* Oh yeah...ideally. But let's say the husband is unwilling to improve things, and the wife is unable leave him because she lacks the money to do so. Now she's stuck.

I'm not saying infidelity is 100% cool here, but I can understand how it would happen in this particular situation. To me, cheating here isn't as bad as the wife who just screws around behind her husband's back for the thrill of it.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
*nods* Oh yeah...ideally. But let's say the husband is unwilling to improve things, and the wife is unable leave him because she lacks the money to do so. Now she's stuck.

I'm not saying infidelity is 100% cool here, but I can understand how it would happen in this particular situation. To me, cheating here isn't as bad as the wife who just screws around behind her husband's back for the thrill of it.

How is that not "cheating"?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
*nods* Oh yeah...ideally. But let's say the husband is unwilling to improve things, and the wife is unable leave him because she lacks the money to do so. Now she's stuck.

Again, the best way, and only right way, to go about things is to discuss it with the husband. If he is unwilling to improve things and she can't leave, then it's OK for her to sleep with other people. What I'm saying is the first step has to be discussing it with the partner. After discussing it with the partner, it's acceptable to sleep with other people.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When you think about the terms you used for example, their honor, them being made a mockery of, isn't the value of these things only related to what we attribute to them?

In other words, if the person who broke the promise, does not see their partner affected at all in these terms, and the person he slept with doesn't even know that their is a partner, in what frame is their honor for example affected?
A few points:
-The value of things like honor do indeed differ a bit by culture, but some of them are near-universal. Few cultures value dishonesty in most cases, for example.
-Of particular importance here is the opinion of the one being cheated on. Do they value honor? Do they value honesty? If so, cheating on them goes against their wishes and reduces their honor objectively (rather than subjectively, since they don't know). If they don't value those things, then lying or hiding the secret isn't even necessary- so if it's hidden, it must be because they would care very much.
-It affects the honor of the cheater as well. They're defining and expressing their self as a dishonest person based on their actions, and forevermore they view their spouse as someone who is blissfully ignorant of the truth, which isn't very flattering. They're saying that they're the type of person that is willing to make promises, but as soon as they realize that they can get away with it, are willing to break them.

Consider a related example. My hypothetical grandfather, on his deathbed, tells me he'd like to be cremated put into sea, like his late wife was. "Sure thing, gramps", I say. And then when he dies, I just throw his body into the woods or something, and think, "well, he's not around to care anymore". An example like this shows:
-Apparently I don't respect my grandfather's wishes very much, and apparently don't have a lot of respect for him. The same can be said for a partner I'd be willing to cheat on.
-I'm defining and expressing myself as someone who doesn't care about the wishes of others, and who is willing to be dishonest.

The person who broke the promise still views their partner in the same way, the partner still view themselves in the same way, all the people around view it in the same way. In what terms has it been affected then?
It has been affected objectively rather than subjectively.

Suppose you could choose to live one of two lives:

a) In this life, you live blissful and subjectively happy. You raise kids, have a wife, etc. But unknown to you, your wife cheats on you and lies to you. And your kids have serious drug problems and are miserable, but never tell you. And your job is actually harmful rather than helpful to your society, even though you think otherwise. So you're a happy guy, but objectively, from any hypothetical person looking from the outside, your life isn't a desirable one. You die happily, not realizing how fruitless your life was, how miserable your kids are, and how your wife cheated on you and didn't consider your wishes important enough to uphold as soon as she concluded that you wouldn't find out.

b) In this life, you encounter some hardship, but you have honest and good relationships, raise good kids, and you work at a job that does some real good for your society. You're not always subjectively happy, but sometimes you are, and overall, you lead a fairly content life and all the things you think are good, truly are good.

Which would you choose?

At the same time, i think people have a right to know the truth regardless, i can't explain why though. Because unlike the example Kathryn used much earlier, about a tree falling in the woods, i fail to see the value of these things if we don't attach them to people. In the tree's case it did fall, and it did make a sound. In this case, aren't those things only happening if it is recognized by someone?
They're happening regardless of whether they are recognized by someone. And, remember, they're recognized by the one who did the cheating too.

I'd like to use this to add something. I don't view every action in terms of right and wrong only. Somethings are neither. In some situations, i believe its best to do something for example, but that doesn't mean you'd be wrong if you didn't.

When i apply that to this issue its like this. Cheating is always wrong. Not following through with the promise (either because it no longer applies or because the grounds change) and sleeping with someone else without telling your partner isn't always wrong. Most of the time it is though, but in some situations its justified. Few extreme situations. In some of those situations, it might be best to still not do that, but if you did that doesn't necessarily mean that you're wrong (or right).
I can't think of very many extreme situations where cheating on a partner and not telling them would be the most optimal solution to a problem.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A few points:
-The value of things like honor do indeed differ a bit by culture, but some of them are near-universal. Few cultures value dishonesty in most cases, for example.

Yeah thats true, but that doesn't in itself necessarily give them any value.

-Of particular importance here is the opinion of the one being cheated on. Do they value honor? Do they value honesty? If so, cheating on them goes against their wishes and reduces their honor objectively (rather than subjectively, since they don't know).

I can almost accept that as an explanation, but i need to know in what terms are you viewing honor, or how are you defining it.

If they don't value those things, then lying or hiding the secret isn't even necessary- so if it's hidden, it must be because they would care very much.

Most likely, but i wouldn't say it must be because of that. It could be hidden for a reason concerned with the person hiding it, not because of anything related to the partner.

-It affects the honor of the cheater as well. They're defining and expressing their self as a dishonest person based on their actions, and forevermore they view their spouse as someone who is blissfully ignorant of the truth, which isn't very flattering. They're saying that they're the type of person that is willing to make promises, but as soon as they realize that they can get away with it, are willing to break them.

Not just getting away with it though, there's also the part that nobody's life has been affected in anyway, no damage has been done (at least until you tell me what you mean by honor).

Consider a related example. My hypothetical grandfather, on his deathbed, tells me he'd like to be cremated put into sea, like his late wife was. "Sure thing, gramps", I say. And then when he dies, I just throw his body into the woods or something, and think, "well, he's not around to care anymore". An example like this shows:
-Apparently I don't respect my grandfather's wishes very much, and apparently don't have a lot of respect for him. The same can be said for a partner I'd be willing to cheat on.
-I'm defining and expressing myself as someone who doesn't care about the wishes of others, and who is willing to be dishonest.

That example only enforces my position that its wrong to do this only based on the lack of damage, and i agree it would be wrong in that case. But of course because its an example, it doesn't help me in the department of explaining why its wrong. That will possibly be accomplished when you define honor.

It has been affected objectively rather than subjectively.

Suppose you could choose to live one of two lives:

a) In this life, you live blissful and subjectively happy. You raise kids, have a wife, etc. But unknown to you, your wife cheats on you and lies to you. And your kids have serious drug problems and are miserable, but never tell you. And your job is actually harmful rather than helpful to your society, even though you think otherwise. So you're a happy guy, but objectively, from any hypothetical person looking from the outside, your life isn't a desirable one. You die happily, not realizing how fruitless your life was, how miserable your kids are, and how your wife cheated on you and didn't consider your wishes important enough to uphold as soon as she concluded that you wouldn't find out.

b) In this life, you encounter some hardship, but you have honest and good relationships, raise good kids, and you work at a job that does some real good for your society. You're not always subjectively happy, but sometimes you are, and overall, you lead a fairly content life and all the things you think are good, truly are good.

Which would you choose?

I'd choose the second regardless of there being an explanation or not for why its better, because i like it better.

However there is a little problem with this example. The objective damage that happened here i can explain why i wouldn't want, why i would prefer my life to be the second scenario, but i can't do the same in the other case.

They're happening regardless of whether they are recognized by someone. And, remember, they're recognized by the one who did the cheating too.

I'll have to wait here also until you tell me how you define honor.

I can't think of very many extreme situations where cheating on a partner and not telling them would be the most optimal solution to a problem.

Me neither, however i'm addressing those situations. I already accepted a couple of situations, and now i'm trying to see if the mere lack of damage is grounds for it to be accepted as well. I don't think it is, but to be sure i need to be able to explain why it isn't.

I want to clarify something on the side for anybody reading this, that i'm here not continuing on the definition of cheating i reached with mball, since Penumbra hasn't addressed this based on it.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah thats true, but that doesn't in itself necessarily give them any value.

I can almost accept that as an explanation, but i need to know in what terms are you viewing honor, or how are you defining it.

Most likely, but i wouldn't say it must be because of that. It could be hidden for a reason concerned with the person hiding it, not because of anything related to the partner.

Not just getting away with it though, there's also the part that nobody's life has been affected in anyway, no damage has been done (at least until you tell me what you mean by honor).

That example only enforces my position that its wrong to do this only based on the lack of damage, and i agree it would be wrong in that case. But of course because its an example, it doesn't help me in the department of explaining why its wrong. That will possibly be accomplished when you define honor.
By using words like honor, I'm trying to avoid using the word eudaimonia again, which is not a particularly common word and yet is most applicable here.

What I mean is, using words like honor, and perhaps words like dignity, truth, virtue, objectivity, etc- there are certain kinds of happiness worth having because it aligns with truth and reality, and there are kinds of happiness that nobody would pick because they are based on false things. Virtually nobody would choose to live a life of happiness that was also based on a lie.

I'd choose the second regardless of there being an explanation or not for why its better, because i like it better.

However there is a little problem with this example. The objective damage that happened here i can explain why i wouldn't want, why i would prefer my life to be the second scenario, but i can't do the same in the other case.
The point of the example is to illustrate that there is more that matters to you than just what you experience. Despite choice a) being the subjectively happier experience, you picked choice b). A person cares not only for the subjective experience of happiness, but also cares that their experience of happiness lines up with reality.

A person who cheats denies their spouse this kind of objective happiness. It renders their happiness the type that isn't based on reality, and isn't the type that most people would choose for their self. If one loves their partner, they would do well to avoid depriving their spouse of the sort of happiness that they would seek.

I'll have to wait here also until you tell me how you define honor.

Me neither, however i'm addressing those situations. I already accepted a couple of situations, and now i'm trying to see if the mere lack of damage is grounds for it to be accepted as well. I don't think it is, but to be sure i need to be able to explain why it isn't.
A person who doesn't wish to define and express their self as someone who is willing to break obligations, promises, and trust whenever they are certain they won't be caught and there won't be tangible consequences, despite the fact that it would hurt the person if they were to know, would do well to avoid cheating. If they care more about objective happiness than simply subjective happiness based on an illusion, and understand that their partner probably feels the same, and if they truly love their partner, why would they cheat?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
If you cheat on your spouse or partner, they never find out, and you don't contract any diseases, etc, is it wrong? Why?

Is there any case that it isn't wrong? Is there any case that it can be beneficial?

It's like when somebody lies, it hurts... I think it is still wrong, if they knew about it, the person deserves to lose trust.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
A person who cheats denies their spouse this kind of objective happiness. It renders their happiness the type that isn't based on reality, and isn't the type that most people would choose for their self. If one loves their partner, they would do well to avoid depriving their spouse of the sort of happiness that they would seek.

Out of curiosity; define happiness.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Out of curiosity; define happiness.
There are different sorts of happiness. There is the subjective experience of happiness, which can be fleeting and which can be based on things things that are not desirable.

The type of happiness worth having is one where subjective happiness is combined with truth and virtue.
Eudaimonia
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
There are different sorts of happiness. There is the subjective experience of happiness, which can be fleeting and which can be based on things things that are not desirable.

The type of happiness worth having is one where subjective happiness is combined with truth and virtue.
Eudaimonia

I have read the text about Eudaimonia in the wikipedia and it seems there isn't much of a consensus of what it is, exactly.

The term 'virtue' , for example, can be used to mean many different things.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have read the text about Eudaimonia in the wikipedia and it seems there isn't much of a consensus of what it is, exactly.

The term 'virtue' , for example, can be used to mean many different things.
Wikipedia articles rarely capture the whole picture, plus it's a combination of different philosophies. Going too far down this discussion leads off of the topic.

But I'm sure you see what I mean at this point- there's more to happiness than just a subjective notion of it. Things like truth, honor, dignity, and objectivity have their place in happiness as well for it to be something worth desiring.

In this way, happiness means to live a great life, where one lives a virtuous life in accordance with truth, and hopefully has a subjective experience of happiness and well-being as well. Cheating on a partner without them knowing about it may preserve that subjective notion of happiness but denies them the rest of it. Their happiness is no longer in accordance with truth, and basically when looked at as a whole, their life in the partnership becomes an illusion (even if perhaps the only one who can see the whole picture is their cheating partner).
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Wikipedia articles rarely capture the whole picture, plus it's a combination of different philosophies. Going too far down this discussion leads off of the topic.

But I'm sure you see what I mean at this point- there's more to happiness than just a subjective notion of it. Things like truth, honor, dignity, and objectivity have their place in happiness as well for it to be something worth desiring.

In this way, happiness means to live a great life, where one lives a virtuous life in accordance with truth, and hopefully has a subjective experience of happiness and well-being as well. Cheating on a partner without them knowing about it may preserve that subjective notion of happiness but denies them the rest of it. Their happiness is no longer in accordance with truth, and basically when looked at as a whole, their life in the partnership becomes an illusion (even if perhaps the only one who can see the whole picture is their cheating partner).

I guess i got the grasp of what you mean.

Personally, i see happiness as being something quite different from most people, which is why I asked for you to define it. I see happiness as being as a continuous feeling of pleasure.
 
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